Jailing Reporters

[vroom]

I see the clueless are out in full force tonight.

To whatever it may concern, the following item referred to Powell specifically…

It sounds awfully like Powell or someone close to him. Powell got the memo seven days before Novak went into print with Plame’s name. For what it’s worth, Luskin says Rove hadn’t seen or heard about the memo until investigators mentioned it to him.

To that, I suggested that I didn’t believe it would be Powell. To which everyone took great offense, suggesting that I didn’t consider it deeply enough, or sarcastically that I had great insight into Powell, or that I suggested someone had said it was Powell when they hadn’t.

Yes, maybe a little bit of reading comprehension might do some folks a little bit of good.

Now, does anybody have anything to say about the topic at hand, or should we continue to have a “bash on vroom” evening where it doesn’t matter what I say I have to be attacked for it?

[vroom]

The only insight you have into the man is his disfavor with the administration. To you, this makes him a demigod.

Hahahahahaha. Let’s see. This would be the “discredit” tactic, where my viewpoint, which you still appear to agree with, would be worthless because you feel it is motivated by a dislike for the administration.

Unfortunately, I developed a respect for Powell long before I developed a disrespect for the current administration. Funny, what might that do to your little theory?

Anyway, if you can, put the hatred aside and try to add something to the thread.

I doubt many people are really interested in your interpretation of my interpretation. I somehow suspect most people simply don’t find it a valuable contribution to the topic at hand.

Feel free to continue to harp at me though… it’s doing you a world of good!

[sasquatch]

Vroom

just save time and write blah, blah,blah for every post. You only have one way of answering, so quit trying to think of new ways to say it.

[vroom]

just save time and write blah, blah,blah for every post. You only have one way of answering, so quit trying to think of new ways to say it.

Nice post Sasquatch… attack much?

[sasquatch]

[quote]vroom wrote:
The only insight you have into the man is his disfavor with the administration. To you, this makes him a demigod.

Hahahahahaha. Let’s see. This would be the “discredit” tactic, where my viewpoint, which you still appear to agree with, would be worthless because you feel it is motivated by a dislike for the administration.

Unfortunately, I developed a respect for Powell long before I developed a disrespect for the current administration. Funny, what might that do to your little theory?

Anyway, if you can, put the hatred aside and try to add something to the thread.

I doubt many people are really interested in your interpretation of my interpretation. I somehow suspect most people simply don’t find it a valuable contribution to the topic at hand.

Feel free to continue to harp at me though… it’s doing you a world of good![/quote]

You just happened tohave developed this great admiration for him-huh
ya-I’ll fall for that

i have no theory vroom

I know for a fact how you interpret the info. If is anti-admin. you give it credence======Downing Street memo

If it doesn’t, you dismiss it off hand.
For example was it Rove, or your new favorite military man Powell.

Not all that complicated or hard to follow really.

As to the thread. It’s been discussed ad nauseum. Rove comfirmed some info to a reporter that was previously leaked. By whom, we do not know. The President has been compared to a ruthless murderer and mob boss. I have taken a stance on that and called it the hogwash that it is.

Anything else you want to know?

[WMD]

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
WMD wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
WMD

These are not the same as criminals in our judicial system.

Nothing illegal is ocurring, so just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it wrong. Are some innocents being caught up in the process–I’m sure yes. It is an unfortunate by-product of the war and current world situation.

If it has or will save one American life, then I stand by it. As you are want to say–we are not afforded all the facts here and probably never will know what was learned through the interrogation process of these people.

Why exactly are they not the same as criminals in our judicial system? We are calling them criminals, accusing them of things, interrogating them and basically violating our own constitution by holding them indefinitely. I mean this nation was founded on the concept of the rule of law, was it not? And if any innocents are caught up in it, it’s wrong.

Are you a lawyer? That is why I addressed the question to BB. I figured he could explain the legal loophole that is allowing this to go on. The people in charge at Guantanamo have said themselves that most of the people still in custody have no ties to terrorism. If that is the case, they should be released immediately and at the very least given a public apology by all those responsible. I’m sure you would not be so complacent about it if it was you or a family member being detained.

Many things that we know to be wrong were once quite legal: slavery, segregation, wife beating, child labor, etc., etc. So don’t try that weasel defense. An act does not have to be specified in a legal code to be wrong.

And the idea that American lives are somehow more valuable than, well, anybody else’s rights, life or dignity doesn’t even deserve a response.

WMD

I am not a lawyer, but I’ve followed the news as to why and how these people could be detained as they were. Maybe instead of trying to prove your manhood over the internet with tough guy talk you could listen and learn.

they were classifies differently than our criminals and therefore could be treated differently. They were in effect hanbded over to the military and are now under their jurisdiction.

I probably would not be so complacent if it were my family member, but if my family member were guilty I would say-“do the crime do the time” That is a weak argument that can be used anytime YOU want to try and justify your weak ass position.

I have no idea what your weasel defense means. As I said it is legal and you may not like it but tough shit. Then go through the legislature or in this case the military nd get it changed. Right now nothing illegal is being done and I stand by the chosen course. These are not ordinary times. Different rules apply during warfare.

You are right about an act not being wrong just because it isn’t specifically coded. But in this case, they are following strict rules that have applied to engagement and agreed upon by many nations over the course of time. So really, let’s concern ourselves with the actions and their legality, not your opinion of their moral impudence.

You may not believe that an American life is worth any more than someones dignity, but I beg to differ. Again, this is war and some things are different than they would be on our streets. I do not advocate torture or anything illegal. But if detaining some and interrogating some has an affect that does in fact save lives I’m all for it.
[/quote]

Sas,

You are hilarious. “Proving my manliness”! Two things: A)I am a woman and B)what exactly about my post is evidence of my trying to prove my “manliness”? The part where I speak my mind? Ask tough questions? Stand up for what I believe in? It’s not like the courts in this country haven’t been wrong before, that’s why there is an appeals process.

they were classifies differently than our criminals and therefore could be treated differently. They were in effect hanbded over to the military and are now under their jurisdiction.

You are absolutely right about this, BB pm’d me with some relevant info. I am much more inclined to be interested in what he has to say because he has been trained to understand the various twists and turns of our legal system. That’s why I asked the question of him, specifically. I knew they had been classified differently, but I’m the kind of person who wants to know why, what was the logic and what were the legal arguments used.

I wonder what future generations will think about this, if they are still free to do so. Because I think back to the internments of Japanese-Americans in WWII with something less than pride. I believe it was a gross violation of their constitutional rights. I’m sure the Govt and lots of Americans at the time thought it was the right thing to do. But in retrospect, not so much. How can we be the leader of the free world, the “City on the Hill”, etc., and not follow our own laws. It is, at the very least, hypocrisy. It reduces our prestige in the world and even in our own land.

Oh, now I remember where I proved my “manliness”: I joined the Army and served in the Gulf War. Because I actually believe in the rightness of our Constitution. And whether this is war or not (which you are right about, it definitely is a different state than on our streets, just ask any young black man from say, Compton) I still don’t think we should suspend the Constitution for certain groups just because it’s convenient for our interrogators.

You should join the military and take a trip to a combat zone. You’ll see just how different a situation it is. And as opposed to an actual war, what we have here is what we call in the Army a “cluster-fuck” or charlie-foxtrot when we’re trying not to swear.

I probably would not be so complacent if it were my family member, but if my family member were guilty I would say-“do the crime do the time” That is a weak argument that can be used anytime YOU want to try and justify your weak ass position.

I wasn’t trying to justify anything, just trying to get you to apply a little common decency and compassion. What exactly is weak about my position? And the thing is, most of these people have been deemed innnocent by the people in charge at Gitmo. They also haven’t been tried, so for what crime should they do time? Being Moslem or Arab or otherwise swarthy and therefore suspicious?

I think all peoples lives are valuable. Not just Americans, but Iraqis, Kuwaitis, Germans and even the French.

they are following strict rules that have applied to engagement and agreed upon by many nations over the course of time.

Really? Which strict rules are those, over what time and which nations? I mean it’s pretty convenient that they were classified as spies rather than normal combatants, that way neither the Constitution is violated, nor the Geneva Convention. I mean these guys, guilty or not, are now in this limbo where the military can hold them for as long as they want, whether or not they have any sort of relevant info. That is why I really think the legality of this situation is standing on pretty shaky ground and that’s why I think it’s pretty weasle-ish.

So what do you think, Sas, should innnocent people be held indefinitely, without any recourse or at least severely curtailed recourse?

WMD

[sasquatch]

Yes looking back the internment of the Japanese was a low point. It’s easy to apply revisionist history and then judge. You have to do what you feel is best given the times and available information.

I would prefer that no innocent people be jailed for even one minute. It is a most unfortunate by-product of an effort by those that are leading this present ‘cluster-fuck’

Name me a war/conflict/cluster-fuck and I’ll show you acts/decisions that were wrong. In fact it doesn’t take a war to make a wrong, even bad decision. But if in the course of these interrogations, lives are saved, then those that are saved would probably be glad we made that decision.

My dad gave his life in the service of this country. I think I know and understand the gravity of what’s occurring. I’m glad your safe and out of harms way. I wish we all were.

[WMD]

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Yes looking back the internment of the Japanese was a low point. It’s easy to apply revisionist history and then judge. You have to do what you feel is best given the times and available information.

I would prefer that no innocent people be jailed for even one minute. It is a most unfortunate by-product of an effort by those that are leading this present ‘cluster-fuck’

Name me a war/conflict/cluster-fuck and I’ll show you acts/decisions that were wrong. In fact it doesn’t take a war to make a wrong, even bad decision. But if in the course of these interrogations, lives are saved, then those that are saved would probably be glad we made that decision.

My dad gave his life in the service of this country. I think I know and understand the gravity of what’s occurring. I’m glad your safe and out of harms way. I wish we all were.[/quote]

Back at ya, on the being safe thing. My dad served in WWII and Korea and while I was born long after he got out of the military, my mom says he was a different man when he returned. I know I was different when I got back from the Gulf. Not necessarily in a shell-shocked, psychotic way. I just saw the world differently. It hurt my heart to see dead children. War is truly an ugly thing, even if sometimes necessary.

You are quite right, people in charge are people and so make mistakes in war or peace time. I’m also sure they are doing their best to do what they think is right. It is however incumbent upon the governed when they believe a wrong is being committed to say something about it. And I believe some wrongs are being committed and so I am speaking out. I think going into Afghanistan made sense. Iraq, not so much. Even Nazi leaders at the Nuremburg trials were given legal rights that the people at Gitmo are being denied. Interrogate those who ARE guilty, charge them, give them legal representation and then give them a speedy and public trial. Release the innocent. Now. That is the American way. Or at least that’s my fantasy about the American way.

Regards,

WMD

[sasquatch]

[quote]WMD wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
Yes looking back the internment of the Japanese was a low point. It’s easy to apply revisionist history and then judge. You have to do what you feel is best given the times and available information.

I would prefer that no innocent people be jailed for even one minute. It is a most unfortunate by-product of an effort by those that are leading this present ‘cluster-fuck’

Name me a war/conflict/cluster-fuck and I’ll show you acts/decisions that were wrong. In fact it doesn’t take a war to make a wrong, even bad decision. But if in the course of these interrogations, lives are saved, then those that are saved would probably be glad we made that decision.

My dad gave his life in the service of this country. I think I know and understand the gravity of what’s occurring. I’m glad your safe and out of harms way. I wish we all were.

Back at ya, on the being safe thing. My dad served in WWII and Korea and while I was born long after he got out of the military, my mom says he was a different man when he returned. I know I was different when I got back from the Gulf. Not necessarily in a shell-shocked, psychotic way. I just saw the world differently. It hurt my heart to see dead children. War is truly an ugly thing, even if sometimes necessary.

You are quite right, people in charge are people and so make mistakes in war or peace time. I’m also sure they are doing their best to do what they think is right. It is however incumbent upon the governed when they believe a wrong is being committed to say something about it. And I believe some wrongs are being committed and so I am speaking out. I think going into Afghanistan made sense. Iraq, not so much. Even Nazi leaders at the Nuremburg trials were given legal rights that the people at Gitmo are being denied. Interrogate those who ARE guilty, charge them, give them legal representation and then give them a speedy and public trial. Release the innocent. Now. That is the American way. Or at least that’s my fantasy about the American way.

Regards,

WMD[/quote]

These are different times. The enemy doesn’t always wear the uniform of the enemy. They are much harder to detect. They are trained differently and with much less “honor” shall we say to uphold the rules of engagement. This said, if proven innocent thay should be released.

My stance remains though, that this is worth it right now. I respect your stance. In fact I wish it were so cut and dried. I wish it weren’t so actually. I wish we were talking about football or something else.

Thank you for your service. Thank you for the talk. Thank you for protecting those most in need. For those most vulnerable. I’m glad we got past that initial post. I’m glad I stayed up late tonight.

[vroom]

[quote]You just happened tohave developed this great admiration for him-huh
ya-I’ll fall for that [/quote]

There is nothing to fall for you dork. I also happened to like or admire Norman Schwarzkopf. Do you remember who he was?

You have the audacity to think I would lie about whether or not I’d had a passing interest in the man since the Gulf War?

Look up the word obsession Sasquatch… you are displacing reality with yours.

[ZEB]

[quote]vroom wrote:
Does anybody really think it was Powell? I mean seriously?

He’s a military man and really wasn’t the type to go after Wilson.

Just because some right wing nut puts it in a blog and then Boston cuts and pastes it here, doesn’t make it any more a reputable opinion than yours or mine.

Is it possible, sure. Just like it is possible that Rove did it.[/quote]

vroom makes a good point here and I will add to it:

The right wing nuts are offering up Powell who is the democrats favorite republican. And the left wing nuts are making up stories and trying to pass them off as fact…with no proof I might add!

[ZEB]

[quote]vroom wrote:
SO you have intimate knowledge of the inner-workings of Powell’s thought processes? Wow. You are truly an amazing individual, vroom. I’m going to go sit under a tree and think about just how smart you are.

Rainjack, if you would like to say it is Powell, what in your great insight into the man would make you think he is the type to do such a thing.

Is there any part of his history of service for the US, or for the Bush administration, that would make it likely that he would be the one to go out and do this?

Perhaps you, with all the great insight and wisdom you think you have, can explain to me how this previously well respected and widely followed (in the media) military man who had a rough time in the Bush administration suddenly decides to take large risks on behalf of the administration, violating his military background and his understanding of the need for secrecy that at his level he must surely understand very well?

You have the same problem Sasquatch does. You are so anxious to find something to disagree with me over that you are ending up looking foolish in the process.[/quote]

Oh…I don’t think that’s it vroom. I just think that they are tired of your rambling negativity on the forum. Just a guess of course.

[ZEB]

[quote]vroom wrote:

There is nothing to fall for you dork. [/quote]

Hey vroom is name calling! Oh…that’s right he always does that…

[vroom]

Zeb, are your the forum scorekeeper? You have nothing to add but a commentary on the discussion itself?

Surely you aren’t planning on being that useless around here?

That is your sole contribution to date on the discussion concerning government medical intervention in schools also. Please, stop acting so childish. It brings the forums down.

I really think that if someone goes out and implies I’m lying, that I should have some leeway to retaliate. In fact, I did so extremely mildly, but because of who I am you cannot grant me that.

Look up the word obsessed Zeb, you are making a fool of yourself also.

Oh, nice try on the censorship attempt, I hope I don’t see you trumpeting for free speech any time soon – after trying to quash mine. Good job again! You are showing your true character.

[mark57]

Hey zeb, can you add anything or is attacking and attempting to belittle and discredit vroom all you’ve got?

Yeah, I thought so.

[ZEB]

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb, are your the forum scorekeeper? You have nothing to add but a commentary on the discussion itself?[/quote]

I have added quite a lot. Check a few pages back on “fact vs fantasy.”

Surely you aren’t planning on being that useless around here?

One more personal insult on the heap!

Please, stop acting so childish. It brings the forums down.

Well…I know how you feel about anyone who disagrees with you. One only has to look at your record. “Bringing down” the forums has pretty much been your job since you took on the title of chief name caller and all around negative dude.

I really think that if someone goes out and implies I’m lying, that I should have some leeway to retaliate. In fact, I did so extremely mildly, but because of who I am you cannot grant me that.

“Retaliate” is an interesting word. If all you have is calling someone a “dork” that’s sort of weak anyway…

Good job again! You are showing your true character.

My true character is to not put up with those who constantly resort to name calling and other childish behavior as you are constantly guilty of.

[ZEB]

[quote]mark57 wrote:
Hey zeb, can you add anything or is attacking and attempting to belittle and discredit vroom all you’ve got?

Yeah, I thought so.

[/quote]

Hi there mark glad you could join the forum and jump right in.

I think rainjack has pretty much pointed out where you went wrong in the other thread that you posted in. Calling people names, as you did to rainjack, didn’t really pay off.

Following in vrooms footsteps by personally attacking and name calling (even though you might be an ultra liberal) is probably not a great idea.

Think it over and get back to me.

[system]

Vroom, they are attacking you in hordes. You must have them all riled up. I do not agree with your opinions, but I see your reasoning and admire your stand.

I’ll be back!

[mark57]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
My true character is to not put up with those who constantly resort to name calling and other childish behavior as you are constantly guilty of.[/quote]

Wow.

Pot, meet Kettle.

[vroom]

[quote]Surely you aren’t planning on being that useless around here?

One more personal insult on the heap![/quote]

Zeb, how on earth is that a personal insult? You are looking for insult where there is no need. You are my self appointed judge and jury and executioner.

I see you also skipped the part about freedom of speech and censorship. Are you too chicken to discuss that? And no, that isn’t a personal attack, it is what is known as a question… see that little curved stick at the end of the statement?

Anyhow, far be it for me to try to get you to talk about anything useful. Keep on harping on everything I post and destroying this thread… that is a wonderful tactic. If anything is bringing these forums down, it is you and your antics. Congratulations!