It's Time to Speak the Truth...

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
I am not saying that anarchy is something that are likely to happen any time soon… [/quote]

Anarchy isn’t going to happen, period. Thankfully.[/quote]

But it already does happen all around you. The TNation forums are an anarchic society/[/quote]

Anarchy in the animal world and on an internet forum are completely irrelevant and in no way analogous to what we are talking about.

Political anarchy in its purest form doesn’t exist anywhere, but two systems come close: regions of Somalia (which no sane person would want to emulate), and the geopolitical landscape as a whole. World politics take place in a system that is close to anarchic, i.e. each nation governs its own but no government governs each nation. The UN and other conglomerate political bodies can try to arbitrate, but they are ultimately fairly powerless .

What has this anarchic system given us? War since the dawn of man. Genocide, colonialism, the invasion of sovereign states and subsequent plundering of their natural resources. Two world wars, ethnic cleansing, Vietnam, two wars in the Gulf, Afghanistan. The great nations of the world act in many of the same ways that individuals would if their respective governments were absolved. Government tempers the uglier side of human nature.
[/quote]

Anarchy exist all around you. There is only one kind of anarchy. It is the natural way of the world sans aggression.[/quote]

Once again, political anarchy does not exist all around us. And no, aggression IS the natural way of the world.

Our distant ancestors lived in ‘societies’ far more anarchic than ours. Do you know what life was like for them? Even shorter and more brutal than it is today. Archaeologists find human skeletons dating from tens of thousands of years back and guess what? Most of them died from getting bashed in the head with a fucking rock before their 35th birthday. A 300,000 year old skull from Ethiopia shows signs of having been scalped. Some of the oldest human bones show signs of having been scraped with tools for meat.

I don;t really know what your argument is, but anyone who idealizes anarchy is a cretin.

82

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
I am not saying that anarchy is something that are likely to happen any time soon… [/quote]

Anarchy isn’t going to happen, period. Thankfully.[/quote]

But it already does happen all around you. The TNation forums are an anarchic society/[/quote]

Anarchy in the animal world and on an internet forum are completely irrelevant and in no way analogous to what we are talking about.

Political anarchy in its purest form doesn’t exist anywhere, but two systems come close: regions of Somalia (which no sane person would want to emulate), and the geopolitical landscape as a whole. World politics take place in a system that is close to anarchic, i.e. each nation governs its own but no government governs each nation. The UN and other conglomerate political bodies can try to arbitrate, but they are ultimately fairly powerless .

What has this anarchic system given us? War since the dawn of man. Genocide, colonialism, the invasion of sovereign states and subsequent plundering of their natural resources. Two world wars, ethnic cleansing, Vietnam, two wars in the Gulf, Afghanistan. The great nations of the world act in many of the same ways that individuals would if their respective governments were absolved. Government tempers the uglier side of human nature.
[/quote]

Anarchy exist all around you. There is only one kind of anarchy. It is the natural way of the world sans aggression.[/quote]

Once again, political anarchy does not exist all around us. And no, aggression IS the natural way of the world.

Our distant ancestors lived in ‘societies’ far more anarchic than ours. Do you know what life was like for them? Even shorter and more brutal than it is today. Archaeologists find human skeletons dating from tens of thousands of years back and guess what? Most of them died from getting bashed in the head with a fucking rock before their 35th birthday. A 300,000 year old skull from Ethiopia shows signs of having been scalped. Some of the oldest human bones show signs of having been scraped with tools for meat.

I don;t really know what your argument is, but anyone who idealizes anarchy is a cretin.[/quote]

I didn’t say aggression wasn’t part of human nature. I said anarchy is what happens when people cooperate sans aggression. It happens all around us everyday. That people commit aggression against us does not mean it is ideal state of nature. What would be ideal is when we can rightfully defend against aggression even when it is visited upon us by those who claim authority over us.

There is only one kind of anarchy. It does not necessarily need to exist every where to be present in our lives though that is the ideal state of any civilization.

83

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I don;t really know what your argument is, but anyone who idealizes anarchy is a cretin.[/quote]

Actually, anyone who would want to control an other person with violence and coercion is a cretin.

Violence and coercion is precisely what I am against.

I think you have it backward.

84

i have always said IMO the closest we come to Anarchy is Somolia , Afganistan, now Libya . I do not think Anarchy is lack of Government , I think it is lack of order

85

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
There is only one kind of anarchy. It is the natural way of the world sans aggression.[/quote].

Soooo, it’s not the natural way of the world?

86

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I don;t really know what your argument is, but anyone who idealizes anarchy is a cretin.[/quote]

Actually, anyone who would want to control an other person with violence and coercion is a cretin.

Violence and coercion is precisely what I am against.

I think you have it backward.[/quote]

Then you don’t support private property? All private property is violently enforced, so you must support some level of violence, no?

87

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
i have always said IMO the closest we come to Anarchy is Somolia , Afganistan, now Libya . I do not think Anarchy is lack of Government , I think it is lack of order[/quote]

Though I don’t know what you mean by “Anarchy”, don’t confuse the chaos of a collapsed state with what anarchists mean when they speak of their ideal society.

88

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I didn’t say aggression wasn’t part of human nature. I said anarchy is what happens when people cooperate sans aggression.

There is only one kind of anarchy. It does not necessarily need to exist every where to be present in our lives though that is the ideal state of any civilization.[/quote]

No, anarchy does not mean “cooperation without aggression”. Not in the English language, anyway.

From Princeton: “a state of lawlessness and disorder (usually resulting from a failure of government)”

From Wikipedia: “Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder.”

Anarchy is absence of a central authority. The reason is has a negative connotation (“the kids had way too much sugar with dinner, it was absolute anarchy”) is because history and reason teach us that in the absence of some sort of legal order/governing body, aggression and violence reign supreme.

89

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I don;t really know what your argument is, but anyone who idealizes anarchy is a cretin.[/quote]

Actually, anyone who would want to control an other person with violence and coercion is a cretin.

[/quote]

Prohibiting others from taking my property and killing my family is a form of control. And a good one.

90

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
i have always said IMO the closest we come to Anarchy is Somolia , Afganistan, now Libya . I do not think Anarchy is lack of Government , I think it is lack of order[/quote]

Society will never lack order so long as people are at peace with each other and able to cooperate.

Anarchy merely describes a state of nonaggression in society.

Your opinion about what “anarchy is” notwithstanding.

91

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I don;t really know what your argument is, but anyone who idealizes anarchy is a cretin.[/quote]

Actually, anyone who would want to control an other person with violence and coercion is a cretin.

[/quote]

Prohibiting others from taking my property and killing my family is a form of control. And a good one.[/quote]

You are conflating control with self defense. They are distinctly different.

92

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I didn’t say aggression wasn’t part of human nature. I said anarchy is what happens when people cooperate sans aggression.

There is only one kind of anarchy. It does not necessarily need to exist every where to be present in our lives though that is the ideal state of any civilization.[/quote]

No, anarchy does not mean “cooperation without aggression”. Not in the English language, anyway.

From Princeton: “a state of lawlessness and disorder (usually resulting from a failure of government)”

From Wikipedia: “Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder.”

Anarchy is absence of a central authority. The reason is has a negative connotation (“the kids had way too much sugar with dinner, it was absolute anarchy”) is because history and reason teach us that in the absence of some sort of legal order/governing body, aggression and violence reign supreme.[/quote]

Princeton is wrong and so is wikipedia. That you cite those two sources also shows your confusion.

The lack of “central authority” in an anarchistic society is a consequence of following the principle of nonaggression. So yes, a central feature of anarchy is the lack of government but that as long as we understand that government is legalized aggression.

93

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

  1. Anarchism is a make believe form of society where there is no government/monarchy therefore no leadership. It exists in the minds of naive idiots and nowhere else.
    [/quote]

Wrong. Anarchism is not make believe. It exists everywhere around you – and even in the animal kingdom. There are always “leaders” in any society the difference is that in an anarchistic society they have no authority to steal from, murder or enslave anyone – i.e., they exist by voluntary mandate alone.[/quote]

you can add that humans have lived in an anarchistic society for 100-000 or 150-000 years
before the state came to be roughly 6000years ago. That is most of our existence. The most traditional form of society are anarchism. civilisation are a new phenomen.[/quote]

You guys are very confused. The first form of society was the family, then the tribe followed by the citystate. A natual progression.

94

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
I am not saying that anarchy is something that are likely to happen any time soon… [/quote]

Anarchy isn’t going to happen, period. Thankfully.[/quote]

But it already does happen all around you. The TNation forums are an anarchic society/[/quote]

Anarchy in the animal world and on an internet forum are completely irrelevant and in no way analogous to what we are talking about.

Political anarchy in its purest form doesn’t exist anywhere, but two systems come close: regions of Somalia (which no sane person would want to emulate), and the geopolitical landscape as a whole. World politics take place in a system that is close to anarchic, i.e. each nation governs its own but no government governs each nation. The UN and other conglomerate political bodies can try to arbitrate, but they are ultimately fairly powerless .

What has this anarchic system given us? War since the dawn of man. Genocide, colonialism, the invasion of sovereign states and subsequent plundering of their natural resources. Two world wars, ethnic cleansing, Vietnam, two wars in the Gulf, Afghanistan. The great nations of the world act in many of the same ways that individuals would if their respective governments were absolved. Government tempers the uglier side of human nature.
[/quote]

Anarchy exist all around you. There is only one kind of anarchy. It is the natural way of the world sans aggression.[/quote]

Once again, political anarchy does not exist all around us. And no, aggression IS the natural way of the world.

Our distant ancestors lived in ‘societies’ far more anarchic than ours. Do you know what life was like for them? Even shorter and more brutal than it is today. Archaeologists find human skeletons dating from tens of thousands of years back and guess what? Most of them died from getting bashed in the head with a fucking rock before their 35th birthday. A 300,000 year old skull from Ethiopia shows signs of having been scalped. Some of the oldest human bones show signs of having been scraped with tools for meat.

I don;t really know what your argument is, but anyone who idealizes anarchy is a cretin.[/quote]

I didn’t say aggression wasn’t part of human nature. I said anarchy is what happens when people cooperate sans aggression. It happens all around us everyday. That people commit aggression against us does not mean it is ideal state of nature. What would be ideal is when we can rightfully defend against aggression even when it is visited upon us by those who claim authority over us.

There is only one kind of anarchy. It does not necessarily need to exist every where to be present in our lives though that is the ideal state of any civilization.[/quote]

“(Anarchy) is the ideal state of any civilization”

  • Let’s take a look at this historically. Ever heard of the term ‘power vacuum’? What do think happens when a government/monarchy falls? In the absence of leadership the strongest seize control. What is generally referred to as ‘the law of the jungle’. The strongest are usually the most brutal. i.e. Peisistratus in Athens, The Taliban in Afghanistan, the Bolsheviks in Russia, the Robespierrists in revolutionary France, the Viet Min in Vietnam and so forth.

Are you seriously naive enough, and historically ignorant enough, to believe that in the abscence of strong leadership a power vacuum will remain and the bad guys and the good guys will all just get along? Who will provide essential services like hospitals, schools, roads, transport etc? Who will ensure that taxation is collected?

95

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

  1. Anarchism is a make believe form of society where there is no government/monarchy therefore no leadership. It exists in the minds of naive idiots and nowhere else.
    [/quote]

Wrong. Anarchism is not make believe. It exists everywhere around you – and even in the animal kingdom. There are always “leaders” in any society the difference is that in an anarchistic society they have no authority to steal from, murder or enslave anyone – i.e., they exist by voluntary mandate alone.[/quote]

you can add that humans have lived in an anarchistic society for 100-000 or 150-000 years
before the state came to be roughly 6000years ago. That is most of our existence. The most traditional form of society are anarchism. civilisation are a new phenomen.[/quote]

You guys are very confused. The first form of society was the family, then the tribe followed by the citystate. A natual progression.[/quote]

The family is an anarchistic institution. It is completely voluntary.

96

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
I am not saying that anarchy is something that are likely to happen any time soon… [/quote]

Anarchy isn’t going to happen, period. Thankfully.[/quote]

But it already does happen all around you. The TNation forums are an anarchic society/[/quote]

Anarchy in the animal world and on an internet forum are completely irrelevant and in no way analogous to what we are talking about.

Political anarchy in its purest form doesn’t exist anywhere, but two systems come close: regions of Somalia (which no sane person would want to emulate), and the geopolitical landscape as a whole. World politics take place in a system that is close to anarchic, i.e. each nation governs its own but no government governs each nation. The UN and other conglomerate political bodies can try to arbitrate, but they are ultimately fairly powerless .

What has this anarchic system given us? War since the dawn of man. Genocide, colonialism, the invasion of sovereign states and subsequent plundering of their natural resources. Two world wars, ethnic cleansing, Vietnam, two wars in the Gulf, Afghanistan. The great nations of the world act in many of the same ways that individuals would if their respective governments were absolved. Government tempers the uglier side of human nature.
[/quote]

Anarchy exist all around you. There is only one kind of anarchy. It is the natural way of the world sans aggression.[/quote]

Once again, political anarchy does not exist all around us. And no, aggression IS the natural way of the world.

Our distant ancestors lived in ‘societies’ far more anarchic than ours. Do you know what life was like for them? Even shorter and more brutal than it is today. Archaeologists find human skeletons dating from tens of thousands of years back and guess what? Most of them died from getting bashed in the head with a fucking rock before their 35th birthday. A 300,000 year old skull from Ethiopia shows signs of having been scalped. Some of the oldest human bones show signs of having been scraped with tools for meat.

I don;t really know what your argument is, but anyone who idealizes anarchy is a cretin.[/quote]

I didn’t say aggression wasn’t part of human nature. I said anarchy is what happens when people cooperate sans aggression. It happens all around us everyday. That people commit aggression against us does not mean it is ideal state of nature. What would be ideal is when we can rightfully defend against aggression even when it is visited upon us by those who claim authority over us.

There is only one kind of anarchy. It does not necessarily need to exist every where to be present in our lives though that is the ideal state of any civilization.[/quote]

“(Anarchy) is the ideal state of any civilization”

  • Let’s take a look at this historically. Ever heard of the term ‘power vacuum’? What do think happens when a government/monarchy falls? In the absence of leadership the strongest seize control. What is generally referred to as ‘the law of the jungle’. The strongest are usually the most brutal. i.e. Peisistratus in Athens, The Taliban in Afghanistan, the Bolsheviks in Russia, the Robespierrists in revolutionary France, the Viet Min in Vietnam and so forth.

Are you seriously naive enough, and historically ignorant enough, to believe that in the abscence of strong leadership a power vacuum will remain and the bad guys and the good guys will all just get along? Who will provide essential services like hospitals, schools, roads, transport etc? Who will ensure that taxation is collected?[/quote]

Are you a suggestiing a world without aggression is not an ideal situation?

I am not ignorant of history but most people are ignorant of logic.

That people want to seize control does not mean it should happen that way.

Is versus ought.

97

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
…I’m not a Democrat or a Republican. I made a side comment that I had changed from a libertarian (capitalist-anarchy) to a conservative. Well, it’s not just from one to the other because one is a mode, and the other is form. I have done a 180, I am now a full fledged American monarchist (and researching Distributism).

Now, before this discussion gets on way, I want to point out that this isn’t something were I just read an awesome book on monarchies (not sure there is one out there), and decided that it was for me. Looking back on this point, I can see this formation having its roots from about 5-6 years ago.

Discuss…and accuse.[/quote]

  1. Anarchism is a make believe form of society where there is no government/monarchy therefore no leadership. It exists in the minds of naive idiots and nowhere else.

  2. Capitalism is the basis of every great civilisation from Carthage to Britain and historically is necessary for advancement of culture, civilisation and standards of living.

  3. Wealth redistribution(read Communism/Marxism) has been a rabble rousing ideology used by evreyone from the Grachhi to Robespierre, Lenin and Hitler. Every state that has ever had a form of revolution based around wealth redistribution has turned into a dictatorship and led to genocide/mass exiles(Cambodia, Soviet Union, Cuba, China, Vietnam etc).

  4. If you want an ‘awesome book on monarchies’ read Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes. But remember that monarchies with political power are about as likely as tits on a bull in the 21st century. Better go with military dictatorship if you want to be a trendy pseudo-intellectual. People won’t laugh at you as much.[/quote]

  5. There is no purely capitalistic economy on earth. Western European countries, which operate under a more balanced economic system than for example the US or Singapore, are consistently found to be the most rewarding and happiest places to live.

  6. A government bailout of an investment bank or insurance company is “wealth redistribution”. So is the fact that I just paid my taxes and GE is paying none.

  7. Contrary to what the assholes in charge want you to believe, a healthy, market-driven economy does not necessarily require the little guy to get bent over and repeatedly fucked without mercy. [/quote]

  8. “Western European countries operate under a more balanced economic system”

  • ‘Balanced’? What are you talking about here? Also, try living in Greece, Spain, Ireland or any of the other economic basket cases that have recently resulted from their governments joining the EU. ‘Consistently found to be the most rewarding and happiest places to live’? Consistently found by whom?

  1. It certainly is wealth redistribution and is a consequence largely of the sub-prime mortage crisis. Two groups are to blame here. The idiots who lent money to people they knew couldn’t pay it back. And the idiots who borrowed money they knew(or should have known) they could not pay back. I agree that tax reform is needed however keep in mind that the biggest companies are also the biggest employers. GE also lost over $100 billion in the last financial year.

  2. The ‘assholes in charge’(who were democratically elected by us remember) are telling us nothing of the sort. In fact over the last decade both the Republicans and the Democrats have been on the most insane spending spree the world has ever known, funding everything from the $50 million ‘bridge to nowhere’ to all Latino schools run by Marxist extremists. If you want to lower spending and thus taxation then vote for a fiscally conservative Republican…oh I forgot you’re an anarchist. Vote for President Hussein Obama.

98

This is a rather good article about anarchism.

99

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
…I’m not a Democrat or a Republican. I made a side comment that I had changed from a libertarian (capitalist-anarchy) to a conservative. Well, it’s not just from one to the other because one is a mode, and the other is form. I have done a 180, I am now a full fledged American monarchist (and researching Distributism).

Now, before this discussion gets on way, I want to point out that this isn’t something were I just read an awesome book on monarchies (not sure there is one out there), and decided that it was for me. Looking back on this point, I can see this formation having its roots from about 5-6 years ago.

Discuss…and accuse.[/quote]

  1. Anarchism is a make believe form of society where there is no government/monarchy therefore no leadership. It exists in the minds of naive idiots and nowhere else.

  2. Capitalism is the basis of every great civilisation from Carthage to Britain and historically is necessary for advancement of culture, civilisation and standards of living.

  3. Wealth redistribution(read Communism/Marxism) has been a rabble rousing ideology used by evreyone from the Grachhi to Robespierre, Lenin and Hitler. Every state that has ever had a form of revolution based around wealth redistribution has turned into a dictatorship and led to genocide/mass exiles(Cambodia, Soviet Union, Cuba, China, Vietnam etc).

  4. If you want an ‘awesome book on monarchies’ read Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes. But remember that monarchies with political power are about as likely as tits on a bull in the 21st century. Better go with military dictatorship if you want to be a trendy pseudo-intellectual. People won’t laugh at you as much.[/quote]

  5. There is no purely capitalistic economy on earth. Western European countries, which operate under a more balanced economic system than for example the US or Singapore, are consistently found to be the most rewarding and happiest places to live.

  6. A government bailout of an investment bank or insurance company is “wealth redistribution”. So is the fact that I just paid my taxes and GE is paying none.

  7. Contrary to what the assholes in charge want you to believe, a healthy, market-driven economy does not necessarily require the little guy to get bent over and repeatedly fucked without mercy. [/quote]

  8. “Western European countries operate under a more balanced economic system”

  • ‘Balanced’? What are you talking about here? Also, try living in Greece, Spain, Ireland or any of the other economic basket cases that have recently resulted from their governments joining the EU. ‘Consistently found to be the most rewarding and happiest places to live’? Consistently found by whom?

  1. It certainly is wealth redistribution and is a consequence largely of the sub-prime mortage crisis. Two groups are to blame here. The idiots who lent money to people they knew couldn’t pay it back. And the idiots who borrowed money they knew(or should have known) they could not pay back. I agree that tax reform is needed however keep in mind that the biggest companies are also the biggest employers. GE also lost over $100 billion in the last financial year.

  2. The ‘assholes in charge’(who were democratically elected by us remember) are telling us nothing of the sort. In fact over the last decade both the Republicans and the Democrats have been on the most insane spending spree the world has ever known, funding everything from the $50 million ‘bridge to nowhere’ to all Latino schools run by Marxist extremists. If you want to lower spending and thus taxation then vote for a fiscally conservative Republican…oh I forgot you’re an anarchist. Vote for President Hussein Obama.[/quote]

First I’m not an anarchist in any way, whatsoever. I never explicitly or implicitly said I was so idk where you got that from.

By balanced I meant incorporating more elements of a socialistic economic structure. Both our and their economies are mixed, but theirs tend a bit more toward democratic socialism.

Western Europe has been consistently found to be the happiest place to live by every contemporary study on the subject of which I am aware. One notable example is a study done by the organization for economic cooperation and development in 2009, you can search for it if you like.

As for the crisis, yes the people who didn’t pay back their loans should have. But that is life in the real world: people get loans, some don’t pay them back. This happens every day, and it happened every day since the advent of banking. You know where problems arise? When investment banks bundle bad loans together in CDOs, pay Moody’s to give them a AAA rating, employ credit default swaps as insurance (not only on their own investments but on other firms’, which is nothing more than betting against a bad loan), and then sell the bad CDO to investors. Take that and multiply it until it represents billions of dollars. That’s how economies collapse.

100

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Western Europe has been consistently found to be the happiest place to live by every contemporary study on the subject of which I am aware. One notable example is a study done by the organization for economic cooperation and development in 2009, you can search for it if you like.
[/quote]

So we have finally found a way to quantify happiness.

Excellent.