Is McCain Electable?

[quote]JeffR wrote:

Thunder,

There is no chance that lixy/pookie/ or, unfortunately, sloth/headhunter is going to understand McCain’s reasoning on this.

It takes more than reading headlines and regurgitating them.

I have always had some trouble with McCain on some issues.

However, on this issue of torture, John McCain has and will always have one position.

The idea that he would flop this clumsily on HIS CORE ISSUE personally and to some degree politically, would only be entertained by a fool.

JeffR[/quote]

And McCain could go on attack against the Dems for playing politics with legislation designed to help in the GWOT. Instead of getting serious about passing FISA reform, they use the usual “load up the legislation” gimmicks for political purposes - and McCain never even has to address the issue of waterboarding.

McCain never had to take a stand on waterboarding in this bill - the Democrats gave him a great podium from which to preach about

  1. The Democrats’ lack of seriousness and pettiness on national security

  2. How McCain is a champion of “daylight” legislation - which also dovetails into his campaign against earmarks (principle is the same - it is unethical and undemocratic)

Easy peasy.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
JeffR wrote:

Thunder,

There is no chance that lixy/pookie/ or, unfortunately, sloth/headhunter is going to understand McCain’s reasoning on this.

It takes more than reading headlines and regurgitating them.

I have always had some trouble with McCain on some issues.

However, on this issue of torture, John McCain has and will always have one position.

The idea that he would flop this clumsily on HIS CORE ISSUE personally and to some degree politically, would only be entertained by a fool.

JeffR

And McCain could go on attack against the Dems for playing politics with legislation designed to help in the GWOT. Instead of getting serious about passing FISA reform, they use the usual “load up the legislation” gimmicks for political purposes - and McCain never even has to address the issue of waterboarding.

McCain never had to take a stand on waterboarding in this bill - the Democrats gave him a great podium from which to preach about

  1. The Democrats’ lack of seriousness and pettiness on national security

  2. How McCain is a champion of “daylight” legislation - which also dovetails into his campaign against earmarks (principle is the same - it is unethical and undemocratic)

Easy peasy. [/quote]

Thunder,

You know how I feel about “anyone but…” or voting to “punish” the Republicans.

This is another example. The democratic party is bereft of ideas and disclipine. They didn’t do the self-analysis and make the necessary changes in leadership and direction after being ousted in 1994.

By default, they were returned to leadership roles.

This is just another example of a party that is myopic, clumsy, and desperate to score cheap political points.

While I may have my reservations about McCain, compared to the democratic party, he’s a Titan of virtue and wisdom.

JeffR

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
pookie wrote:
I’d be careful relying on Lixy for decent coverage of the issue.[/quote]

I’m not. I tend to skip or quick-skim lixy’s posts. He tends to repeat the same things over and over and is not open to debate, so…

That may be so, but in the MSM it is being widely reported as McCain “caving in” on torture or as him changing his mind. Whether it’s a simply a ploy by the Democrats, what counts in the end is public perception of his action. I’m sure there will be plenty of spin from both sides, but to be able to question his integrity on a point he’s always been adamant about might incline some to think he’s not strong or principled enough to be president.

He can’t have it both ways. The more he tries to placate his “base”, the more he’s alienating a large portion of the moderate voting public who doesn’t automatically vote according to partisan lines. I think he’d be better off letting his base vote for him while pinching their nose and going after the swing votes. He appears to be favoring the opposite strategy, a decision I think will ultimately cost him the presidency.

Right now, he seems to mainly stand for more Iraq war, probably more and new wars, has stated that he “knows nothing” about economic matters, etc. He’s becoming Bush redux. Looking at Bush’s approval ratings, I don’t see how that strategy will pay off.

The full outcome largely depends on the public’s perception of the event. Whether your interpretation of the vote is correct or not, it will matter little if the voting public sees it as him giving in to torture to placate his base.

Time will tell.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Three people have been waterboarded. Three.

Does anyone think this is an important issue?[/quote]

The three of them do I guess. But, in the grand scheme of things, hell no.

In the world of military black ops of espionage I sure this type of thing happens more often. There is not a an administration that will stop it either, nor are we likely to be aware it’s happening.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
pookie wrote:

Yup, that’s bad.

In an effort to cozy up to the Republican base, who by and large despise him, he’s alienating Independants and right-leaning Democrats who might have voted for him instead of Obama/Clinton…

Of course, “bad” is relative. I think it’s wonderful news that “The Maverick” (for definitions of “maverick” than mean “pandering dick”) is setting himself as a pro-war, pro-surge, 100-years in Iraq, pro-Bush tax cuts, pro-torture, anti-science “can’t help you with jobs” kinda guy. Of course, that stance will change according to the audience he’s addressing at that moment, but that’ll catch up with him too.

Can’t wait for November.

I’d be careful relying on Lixy for decent coverage of the issue.

[i]The provision had not been part of the original authorization bills approved by the House and the Senate. It was inserted at the last minute by Democrats during conference negotiations as a way to extend the Army’s ban on torture to intelligence agencies.

House Democrats pushed through the conference report in December. The White House has threatened to veto final legislation if it includes the provision. Democrats and civil liberties groups argue the provision is needed to ensure the CIA does not use torture. [/i]

http://thegate.nationaljournal.com/2008/02/senate_to_battle_over_authoriz.php

So Democrats add the waterboarding ban at the 11th hour in order to stage political theatre to get the presumptive GOP nominee in the news for refusing to vote for it.

McCain may need to placate the base - and that may rankle some - but there is nothing smart to be done by letting Democrats define your candidacy by trying to manipulate legislation for political show.

The waterboarding ban wasn’t part of the debated bill - that is good enough reason to vote against it as a matter of principle. Regardless of McCain’s opinion, the Democrats set a clumsy trap with no expectation the ban would be passed - Bush assured a veto if the bill included a waterboarding ban.

Sloppy political move by Democrats using legislation as nothing more than a way to take a shot at McCain - and a wise move for McCain to ignore it.

Thunder,

There is no chance that lixy/pookie/ or, unfortunately, sloth/headhunter is going to understand McCain’s reasoning on this.

It takes more than reading headlines and regurgitating them.

I have always had some trouble with McCain on some issues.

However, on this issue of torture, John McCain has and will always have one position.

The idea that he would flop this clumsily on HIS CORE ISSUE personally and to some degree politically, would only be entertained by a fool.

JeffR

[/quote]

Not sure why my name got thrown in here. In the past I’ve given him credit for standing by his “no torture” stance. I’m sure he’ll sign legislation specifically targeted at ending the practice when it comes up. There’s plenty of other reasons why I won’t vote for him. But torture, wasn’t one of them.

Politicians want votes. Certain politicians will do anything to get them. These are the type of people I don’t want as neighbors let alone as leaders.

Humility, integrity, and courage are values that still count for something, right?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Three people have been waterboarded. Three.

Does anyone think this is an important issue?[/quote]

It’s not really how many have been tortured, it’s the principle that the USA didn’t used to be a country that used torture - or at least, it wasn’t official policy and the President had plausible deniability.

It’s harder to denounce dictators who use torture when you do it too. Whether they do it more is irrelevant. Raping only one woman compared to someone who’s raped dozens might make you the lesser scumbag, but you’re still a rapist scumbag.

To approach it from the other side: Since it was only required in three cases, was the payoff from those three waterboardings worth the enormous public opinion costs? As far as I know, no good actionable intelligence has ever been obtained from torture. So why bother?

It’s also worth noting that your troops, when captured, can now be freely waterboarded by the enemy, since, by and large, your current administration doesn’t consider it torture - or considers it “acceptable” torture. You can’t really fault an enemy for using “enhanced interrogation techniques” on your own, right?

[quote]pookie wrote:

I’m not. I tend to skip or quick-skim lixy’s posts. He tends to repeat the same things over and over and is not open to debate, so…[/quote]

Exactly, and well said.

Maybe, although the fact that the MSM is offering it as a story could certainly help him with the base.

My point was that public perception of his vote could go either way, true - but McCain has an easy explanation, and a principled one. I suspect the only people who would refuse to hear that explanation are people who weren’t going to vote for him anyway.

Well, actually, no one can - every national candidate has to endure this balancing act, so every candidate tries to have it both ways. What helps with McCain is that he is naturally positioned as someone independents like, and he needs to make sure the base turns out.

Personally, I think the base will. If Hillary is the nominee, that is a no-brainer, but I actually think Obama is the more liberal candidate, and the base has every reason to make sure the “most liberal Senator of 2007” gets nowhere near the Oval Office.

That said, I think the issue is moot on this one - McCain didn’t make his decision solely to placate the base. And more besides, he can’t - he made it clear during the debates that he is opposed to waterboarding. McCain isn’t that dumb - he isn’t going to let Democrats create the narrative with his help.

Right - and that was my point: the event creates a good opportunity to move public perception on it. Whether he does n or not is a fair question, but the Democratic tactic gives McCain tons of new stuff to talk about and he can criticize the fecklessness of the move.

Had he voted for the bill, it would hurt his credibility as a good-government conservative who wants daylight votes on things before they become law - which is a huge component of his domestic agenda, especially w/r/t earmarking.

The vote is easily explained - and makes Democrats look dumb and petty. It is up to McCain to take advantage of it, but the vote isn’t naturally indicative of inconsistency or political opportunism…

…unless you wouldn’t be voting for McCain anyway, in which case, it doesn’t matter.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Humility, integrity, and courage are values that still count for something, right?[/quote]

You simply can’t make up your mind on “values”, can you?

[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Three people have been waterboarded. Three.

Does anyone think this is an important issue?

It’s not really how many have been tortured, it’s the principle that the USA didn’t used to be a country that used torture - or at least, it wasn’t official policy and the President had plausible deniability.

It’s harder to denounce dictators who use torture when you do it too. Whether they do it more is irrelevant. Raping only one woman compared to someone who’s raped dozens might make you the lesser scumbag, but you’re still a rapist scumbag.

To approach it from the other side: Since it was only required in three cases, was the payoff from those three waterboardings worth the enormous public opinion costs? As far as I know, no good actionable intelligence has ever been obtained from torture. So why bother?

It’s also worth noting that your troops, when captured, can now be freely waterboarded by the enemy, since, by and large, your current administration doesn’t consider it torture - or considers it “acceptable” torture. You can’t really fault an enemy for using “enhanced interrogation techniques” on your own, right?
[/quote]

Prisoners have been harshly interrogated by every country in every war. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.

Was it worth it? The people involved claim it got them talking and has been a help. They are not going to share specifics because that is all classified information but I do not trust the media reports that claim it didn’t help.

The thought that this gives permission to others to do the same is laughable. Those that would torture would do it anyway. And countries like yours will turn people over to those that will use harsh methods while you claim your hands are clean.

This is nothing but politics. Those that try to take political advantage of this non issue are low lifes.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Prisoners have been harshly interrogated by every country in every war. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.[/quote]

“Everyone else is scum, so it’s ok if we’re scum too!” is your argument? Where does being as low as anyone else make the USA a better country?

Well, that sure is convenient. It’s also a bit odd, since it contradicts every study ever made on torture, and is also in opposition to the opinion of many interrogation experts who maintain that people broken by torture will admit to anything and make up what they think you want to hear simply to end the torture.

Canada’s official policy is that torture is proscribed in all cases. Our last well publicized case of torture - Canadian citizen Maher Arar (who got tortured after we handed him over to your FBI) - got 10 millions in reparations and public apologies from our prime minister. Canada might covertly use torture - we invented Celine Dion after all - but it’s not official government policy and we prosecute perpetrators if they’re caught.

Following that logic, anything expedient and convenient is allowed. Why not let your soldiers rape and pillage and burn in Iraq? Anyone denouncing it is only playing dirty political games. Why defend any moral principles at all? Just declare that inherent human rights only apply to US citizens, and carpet bomb the fuck out of any situation that threaten your interests anywhere.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Prisoners have been harshly interrogated by every country in every war. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.

“Everyone else is scum, so it’s ok if we’re scum too!” is your argument? Where does being as low as anyone else make the USA a better country?

Was it worth it? The people involved claim it got them talking and has been a help. They are not going to share specifics because that is all classified information but I do not trust the media reports that claim it didn’t help.

Well, that sure is convenient. It’s also a bit odd, since it contradicts every study ever made on torture, and is also in opposition to the opinion of many interrogation experts who maintain that people broken by torture will admit to anything and make up what they think you want to hear simply to end the torture.

The thought that this gives permission to others to do the same is laughable. Those that would torture would do it anyway. And countries like yours will turn people over to those that will use harsh methods while you claim your hands are clean.

Canada’s official policy is that torture is proscribed in all cases. Our last well publicized case of torture - Canadian citizen Maher Arar (who got tortured after we handed him over to your FBI) - got 10 millions in reparations and public apologies from our prime minister. Canada might covertly use torture - we invented Celine Dion after all - but it’s not official government policy and we prosecute perpetrators if they’re caught.

This is nothing but politics. Those that try to take political advantage of this non issue are low lifes.

Following that logic, anything expedient and convenient is allowed. Why not let your soldiers rape and pillage and burn in Iraq? Anyone denouncing it is only playing dirty political games. Why defend any moral principles at all? Just declare that inherent human rights only apply to US citizens, and carpet bomb the fuck out of any situation that threaten your interests anywhere.

[/quote]

This is exactly the type of phony crap I am talking about. We dunked 3 Al Qaeda leaders heads under water. Big deal.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Sean Hannity described your position very well today — the Country Club Conservative. Guys like you despise Reagan because he was NOT a compromiser. He stood up to the libs and, because he was right, he won. John McCain seeks to deal with the libs, shitbags like Kennedy and Feingold. Yeah, good luck with that.

Ronald Reagan was a political eunuch, according to your definition. McCain isn’t fit to shine RR’s shoes.

Try getting out more, TB. Life in the Country Club, compromising with the Limosine Lib must be pretty shitty. Less trades, more morality — give it a shot.

[/quote]

Not a compromiser? You do remember Tip O’Neill and his House of Congress, don’t you? That’s the place where laws get passed. If RR wanted to spend $$$ on defense, he most certainly DID throw democratic party pork in with his plan. RR was a consumate compromiser. Thus he was genius in getting his plans passed. The problem in the end was it added up to too much spending.

HH, how old are you? Were you around in the '80’s? I find it surprising that you do not remember the political climate back then.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
This is exactly the type of phony crap I am talking about. We dunked 3 Al Qaeda leaders heads under water. Big deal. [/quote]

Yet, if it’s such a non issue, one wonders why you feel the need to minimize it as you do… “only three” … “dunked their heads in water” and so on. Either torture is ok and it doesn’t matter then what is done to how many, or it’s not.

Why such an insistence on the low number of victims, or the factually incorrect description of the process? Why seek to minimize what happened as much as possible, if the government was entirely right in doing it?

[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
This is exactly the type of phony crap I am talking about. We dunked 3 Al Qaeda leaders heads under water. Big deal.

Yet, if it’s such a non issue, one wonders why you feel the need to minimize it as you do… “only three” … “dunked their heads in water” and so on. Either torture is ok and it doesn’t matter then what is done to how many, or it’s not.

Why such an insistence on the low number of victims, or the factually incorrect description of the process? Why seek to minimize what happened as much as possible, if the government was entirely right in doing it?
[/quote]

I accurately described it. You are trying to stretch it into wanton rape and murder. Why do you do that instead of dealing with the reality of the situation?

Do you let the politicians and media play you so easily?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I accurately described it. You are trying to stretch it into wanton rape and murder. Why do you do that instead of dealing with the reality of the situation?[/quote]

Because principles and general concepts are more important than the particulars of a specific situation. The type of torture is not relevant; neither is the frequency with which it’s used.

You’d excuse rape if the guy used a condom, apologized on his way out and only did it to ugly chicks. I don’t.

Right. Politicians manoeuver and use the media to make sure I’m against torture, as they want nothing to do with it. That makes perfect sense.

We don’t have to scratch your opinions very deep to find out you’ve given them no thought at all, now do we?

[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
This is exactly the type of phony crap I am talking about. We dunked 3 Al Qaeda leaders heads under water. Big deal.

Yet, if it’s such a non issue, one wonders why you feel the need to minimize it as you do… “only three” … “dunked their heads in water” and so on. Either torture is ok and it doesn’t matter then what is done to how many, or it’s not.

Why such an insistence on the low number of victims, or the factually incorrect description of the process? Why seek to minimize what happened as much as possible, if the government was entirely right in doing it?
[/quote]

Numbers DO matter. Otherwise saying for instance torturing 1 is like torturing 100, or killing 10 people is as bad as killing 1. Clearly, killing 10 people is worse than killing one, even though killing one person is a really bad thing.

Why DO they use waterboarding anyway? Don’t they have all sorts of drugs that makes a person sing their head off? Or is that only in the movies?

Also, why does McCain want to give terrorists constitutional rights? Further, these guys have been in GITMO now so long, why would we let them go? If the person is innocent, they’ll probably be hell bent on payback (I would be) and if they’re guilty they are already.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Further, these guys have been in GITMO now so long, why would we let them go? If the person is innocent, they’ll probably be hell bent on payback (I would be) [/quote]

Eh? What kind of sick logic is that?

McCain and his tax record:

[i]The McCain Fiscal Record
By KEVIN STACH
February 14, 2008; Page A17

After sweeping the Potomac primary, John McCain is now the de facto Republican nominee for president. But while Mr. McCain’s fight for the nomination is all but over, Mike Huckabee’s strong showing in Virginia suggests that Mr. McCain’s battle to unify the Republican Party is just beginning. One major task is to secure the GOP’s right flank, which remains cool to Mr. McCain over issues including taxes and economics.

The support of supply-siders Jack Kemp and Phil Gramm has not been enough to reassure some economic conservatives about the direction of economic policy in a McCain administration. Yet a look at Mr. McCain’s record in Congress over the past 25 years demonstrates a tax-cutting pedigree at least as strong as, if not stronger than, Mitt Romney’s or Mike Huckabee’s (they both raised taxes as governors).
[John McCain]

Mr. McCain calls himself a proud foot soldier in the Reagan Revolution. He joined the House of Representatives too late to vote on President Reagan’s historic package of tax-rate cuts, but in 1983, the year he arrived in the House, Mr. McCain joined supply-siders by voting against legislation to place a “cap” on the third year of the Reagan tax cuts. (All votes come from the American Conservative Union’s list of “key votes,” used to compile its annual congressional rankings.)

A year later, Mr. McCain voted against a Democrat-sponsored tax reform bill that included $250 billion in tax increases and a deficit-reduction plan that contained another $51 billion in tax hikes. While serving in the House, Mr. McCain’s pro-tax cut votes helped him earn ACU rankings as high as conservative stalwarts such as Jack Kemp, Newt Gingrich, Henry Hyde and Vin Weber.

Mr. McCain took over Barry Goldwater’s Senate seat in 1987. In 1989 – in the face of rising deficits – Mr. McCain voted for a pro-growth cut in the capital-gains tax to 35% and to expand tax-advantaged Individual Retirement Accounts.

In 1990, those rising deficits led President George H.W. Bush to abandon his “no new taxes” pledge and seek out a budget deal with Senate Democrats. The negotiations were so politically sensitive that Office of Management and Budget Director Richard Darman and congressional leaders decamped to Andrews Air Force base. They ultimately brought back a deal that included a trade-off: supposedly binding budget levels in exchange for what was then the largest tax increase in history.

Many Republican budget hawks in the Senate – including Bob Dole, Pete Domenici, Warren Rudman, Alan Simpson, Strom Thurmond and Orin Hatch – strongly pushed this package. Yet Mr. McCain and other supply-siders such as Connie Mack, Trent Lott and Phil Gramm broke ranks with George H.W. Bush and the GOP leadership to vote “no.”

Throughout the 1990s, Mr. McCain was a reliable, down-the-line tax cutter. In 1992, he voted for an amendment by supply-side hero Sen. Bob Kasten to require a super-majority in Congress to raise taxes. That same year, he joined just 37 other senators in pushing for Sen. Connie Mack’s proposal to cut the capital gains tax to 15%.

Like every other Republican, Mr. McCain voted against President Clinton’s 1994 budget that shattered George H.W. Bush’s record for the largest tax increase in history. In 1995, he was one of just 31 senators to vote for a bill to establish a $500 per child tax credit, reduce the capital gains tax, expand IRAs and eliminate the tax penalty on married couples. He also voted for the Balanced Budget Act, which would have reduced spending by $894 billion while cutting taxes by $245 billion.

In 1996, Mr. McCain voted in favor of establishing Medical Savings Accounts, allowing Americans to save tax-free to pay for medical expenses – a proposal long-championed by supply-sider Steve Forbes. He also voted for another amendment to require a super-majority vote in Congress to raise taxes. In 1997, Mr. McCain voted on various tax cut bills that would have indexed the capital gains to inflation and allowed parents to invest up to $2,500 per year tax free in education savings accounts.

On April 1, 1998, Mr. McCain voted in favor of lifting income thresholds for the 15% and 28% tax brackets, which would have generated a tax cut of $195 billion over five years. In 2000, he again voted to eliminate the federal marriage penalty and to repeal the “death” tax by 2010. He also supported a bill to reduce the percentage of Social Security benefits taxed to 50% from 85%, restoring them to pre-Clinton levels.

In 2001, with the bitter primary battle still fresh, Mr. McCain voted against the final Bush tax-cut package. Why would he deviate from a pro-growth, tax-cutting position, built up over 17 years in Congress and dozens of votes, even after running on a tax-cut plan himself in 2000?

Mr. McCain’s protest that he wanted spending cuts to accompany the Bush tax cuts has persuaded few conservatives. But what is not remembered is that, two weeks earlier, Mr. McCain voted to approve the final version of the Budget Resolution – the blueprint used by congressional committees for spending and tax bills – which included $1.35 trillion in tax cuts (the Bush proposal) coupled with a $661 billion cap on discretionary spending. When the promised spending cap never materialized, Mr. McCain denounced the wasteful earmarks and pork-barrel spending that he felt jeopardized the budget, and lodged the now famous protest vote against the tax cuts.

By 2004, Mr. McCain was back on track. That year, he voted against rescinding portions of the Bush tax cut, voted in favor of extending the moratorium on Internet taxation, and voted against raising the top marginal tax rate to 36% from 35%. In 2006, Mr. McCain voted to extend AMT relief for millions of middle-class tax payers and to extend the cuts in dividend and capital-gains taxes. He also voted to end a filibuster that prevented a vote on a bill to permanently repeal the death tax.

Mr. McCain has tried to reassure economic conservatives by pledging to make permanent the tax cuts he initially opposed. Whether Mr. McCain can ultimately convince them remains to be seen, although his 25-year record of supporting pro-growth tax cuts weighs in his favor. If that’s not enough, they might consider that the Bush tax cuts are on auto-pilot to expire – and neither a President Clinton nor a President Obama will have to lift a finger to impose a crushing tax hike on America’s economy.[/i]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120295108223666913.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

Especially interesting facts on McCain’s vote against the Bush tax cuts.

Imagine - tax cuts and spending cuts. A fairly conservative recipe for someone the Magic Box calls “librul”.