Iraq War: Any Alternatives?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]100meters wrote:

Well he could raise the s.s. tax from 90,000 to say 200,00 and thereby guarantee S.S. for about forever, and that would make me and 99 percent of the country happy.

[/quote]

They could privatize it and get a much better return on the dollars invested. But wait - then the liberals are convinced that private citizens are way to stupid to be trusted with their own money.

How much more money do you actually think will be raised by increasing the SS ceiling to 200,000? What percentage of americans make above 200K? Maybe 1%?

If Soc Sec can be saved by taxing up to 200k, there must be a shitload of wealthy folks in this country. It is credited to their account, and they wind up making even more money when they retire. So are you now pro-wealthy?

Go find an article you can plagerize, copy and paste to support your position.

102

100

I am sure if I keep re-reading your post…it will continue to make no sense.

Boy who cried wolf is a parable about a child who constantly claims the wolf is coming. When it actually comes nobody believes him. Sounds like the Democrats.

How would you deal with terrorists. Appeasment? Your ideas are empty.

And yes if you can’t understand how silly your statement was regarding the 9/11 terrorists, further attempts to point out the obvious to you will be a waste of time.

Enjoy the next 4 yrs of the administration!

103

100meters,

I’ll try again. Since you are not answering direct questions, I’ll give you one more shot.

Did you contribute to Kerry’s campaign?

What to do about Iraq circa 2003?

Your “attack only Afghanistan” shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the global nature of this conflict.

Oh, have my liberal pals noted that Egypt has called for it’s first true election in over 50 years?

Why?

One word: Iraq.

Oh, the Pro-Syrian Government in Lebanon resigned today.

Any chance the populace would have been demonstrating against said government before the invasion of Iraq.

Nope.

People like 100meters, AlDurr, or Pox won’t ever see the good in the effort.

I’ll bet some of my more moderate Democratic pals like Deansumo or my foreign friends, Makkun, may eventually come on board.

JeffR

104

[quote]JeffR wrote:
100meters,

I’ll try again. Since you are not answering direct questions, I’ll give you one more shot.

Did you contribute to Kerry’s campaign?

What to do about Iraq circa 2003?

Your “attack only Afghanistan” shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the global nature of this conflict.

Oh, have my liberal pals noted that Egypt has called for it’s first true election in over 50 years?

Why?

One word: Iraq.

Oh, the Pro-Syrian Government in Lebanon resigned today.

Any chance the populace would have been demonstrating against said government before the invasion of Iraq.

Nope.

People like 100meters, AlDurr, or Pox won’t ever see the good in the effort.

I’ll bet some of my more moderate Democratic pals like Deansumo or my foreign friends, Makkun, may eventually come on board.

JeffR[/quote]

Hahhahahha. You, my friend, have bought into every lie that this country has told you since Vietnam. You think this was a nooble endeavor, going into Iraq? You think we gave a shit about the prople? No, its about money and world domination. 9/11 was a great excuse for them to launch an unprecedented period of imperialism.

That hillbilly sonofabitch has taken his own interests in oil and money and placed my buddies in the firing line, all for the gas pump. If you dont think its true, YOU HAVE YOUR HEAD UP YOUR ASS. And you know, his kids arent going to fight, they’ll dodge it just like that pussy did when they called him up. No, its poor, healthy sons like me that will get called up to die for the money in his pockets.

You need to seriously go through your history books. GULF OF TONKIN! PENTAGON PAPERS! CAMBODIA! And now…WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION! HE fucking lied!! Get your head out of your ass.

And if anyone calls me anti-American because I have a different viewpoint, don’t bother, because that means your intelligence level is that of a brick (or the president).

105

I’m no liberal, but I’ll gladly answer every question you pose.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
If you think the Iraq War was a mistake, provide an alternative.

Please go A to B to C.[/quote]

The alternative? Minding our own business and not going in. ABC’s are only needed when you meddle with the affairs of others and wind up in a shitstorm.

Q: Ok, now how could we have stopped him from reconstituting the weapons?

We couldn’t. And it matters not in the least.

Q: Training terrorists?

The best way to deter the training of terrorists is to eliminate the root cause of all terrorism. In this case, it is the U.S. presence in the middle east.

Q: Funding Terrorists?:
Perhaps you aren’t aware, but the U.S. has made a routine policy out of funding terrorism across the world over the past 50 years.

Q: Firing on our planes (nearly daily)?

If the planes weren’t there to bomb the country, they wouldn’t be fired upon.

Q: Bribing UN officials?

What’s that have to do with the U.S.?

Q: Throwing UN inspectors out at will/obstructing their inspections?

What’s that have to do with the U.S.?

Q: Moving weapons/changing sites PRIOR to inspections?

What’s that have to do with the U.S.? How come we don’t invade Russia or England when they decide to make new weapons or build existing ones?

Q: Not declaring weapon systems that we have subsequently found since the invasion?

Why should he be forced to declare anything when the U.S. refuses to declare the truth about it’s own weapons development programs?

Q: The problem with the ABB crowd (among many things) is that they have offered EXACTLY ZERO in the way of a viable alternative.

What you fail to understand is that there is no “viable alternative” needed because Iraq was a non-issue until political spin-meisters decided to turn it into one, for their own gain. Do you know that Bush was planning to invade Iraq as soon as he entered office, way before 9/11? I take it you’ve never heard about the infamous White House Memo recorded in August of 2001 which detailed a conversation between Bushy and Rice about finding a valid reason to invade Iraq. A month later, they got one.

Read it and learn. And before you start, it’s not liberal, and it’s not conservative. It’s libertarian, which used to mean conservative, until the conservative movement in this country turned fascist. Chances are, you know nothing about this, so just read the site and realize that nearly everything on it is backed up by a plethora of sources.

106

[quote]JeffR wrote:
100meters,

I’ll bet some of my more moderate Democratic pals like Deansumo or my foreign friends, Makkun, may eventually come on board.

JeffR[/quote]

I haven’t chimed in on this thread yet, Jeff, as after sanity’s defeat in November,I felt emotionally drained and had to take a break from this forum! However, I have to agree with 100m and Al Shades. The alternative to the Iraq War was no Iraq war. We should have stopped at Afghanistan. And then got the fuck out of meddling in the Middle East! The main cause of terrorism against America is what America has done there. This does not make terrorism right, no one accuse me of that. Terrorists deserve a bullet. But why make more?

I am more in line with you Repubs regarding the current state of most Middle Eastern nations- backward, almost savage in some ways. But is it our job to bring them democracy? I don’t think so. Those countries can achieve that in their own time, and not through the barrel of an M-16. Even if an improved society and government is achieved, they will not thank us for it. They will resent it. And I may receive some criticism from both liberals and conservatives alike for this comment, but why should Western lives be wasted to achieve this goal? Revolution should come from with, eg the French Revolution, and be deserved.

Things are stirring over there, regarding the move to democracy. This is incidental. It was never Bush’s stated aim until after the point. ‘We are bringing the Iraqi people freedom and democracy’ is a smokescreen. And no need to go on about invisible WMDs and non-existent Al Qaeda cells. Bush, Rice, etc are doing their best to obscure their initial motives for the invasion. It’s a form of propaganda.

‘Don’t wanna be an American Idiot
Don’t wanna nation under the new media
And can you hear the sound of hysteria?
The subliminal mindfuck America’

Well, Jeff, probably not what you were looking for, buddy. Stick up for your beliefs, but keep an open mind.

107

Janoski wrote:

“:Hahhahahha. You, my friend, have bought into every lie that this country has told you since Vietnam. You think this was a nooble endeavor, going into Iraq? You think we gave a shit about the prople? No, its about money and world domination. 9/11 was a great excuse for them to launch an unprecedented period of imperialism.”

If it was imperialism we wouldn’t be going to such extraodinary efforts to help the Iraqi’s create their own government. Add the improvements in infrastructure, and your argument falls flat.

“That hillbilly sonofabitch has taken his own interests in oil and money and placed my buddies in the firing line, all for the gas pump.”

Proof please.

“If you dont think its true, YOU HAVE YOUR HEAD UP YOUR ASS.”

With language like that, you shouldnt be calling anyone else “hillbilly.”

“And you know, his kids arent going to fight, they’ll dodge it just like that pussy did when they called him up.”

You sure are a nasty little cuss. Anyway, given our population, what percentage serve? Less that .5%. So by your logic, 99.5% of people are cowards?

“No, its poor, healthy sons like me that will get called up to die for the money in his pockets.”

Proof please. Oh, if you pull out the “Halliburton” crap, I’ll counter with plenty of data showing that they were the Democrats’ heavy lifting company of choice.

“You need to seriously go through your history books. GULF OF TONKIN! PENTAGON PAPERS! CAMBODIA! And now…WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION! HE fucking lied!! Get your head out of your ass.”

Here we go again. What’s next? GHW Bush bought the elections? Keep it up.

“And if anyone calls me anti-American because I have a different viewpoint, don’t bother, because that means your intelligence level is that of a brick (or the President).”

You are sad.

Oh, with your limited reasoning ability, I’d bet you would be outclassed by W. in every way.

Next time you regurgitate the tired Democratic slogans, please offer some alternatives.

Thanks!!!

JeffR

108

Shades wrote:
“I’m no liberal, but I’ll gladly answer every question you pose.”

Depends on your viewpoint. In your home state of Mass., there are only degrees of liberalism. You may not be considered “liberal” next to Uncle Teddy. However, to the rest of the country…

“The alternative? Minding our own business and not going in. ABC’s are only needed when you meddle with the affairs of others and wind up in a shitstorm.”

Great. Isolationism works great. See history books.

“We couldn’t. And it matters not in the least.”

Cool argument.

“The best way to deter the training of terrorists is to eliminate the root cause of all terrorism. In this case, it is the U.S. presence in the middle east.”

Great thinking. Where else to you propose pulling out? When it gets hot, run away!!!

Let me repeat, isolationism works great. Especially in a world community becoming more interdepedent ever day.

“Perhaps you aren’t aware, but the U.S. has made a routine policy out of funding terrorism across the world over the past 50 years.”

We have not been blameless.

However,…are you saying that now we can’t take any steps to stop it?

“If the planes weren’t there to bomb the country, they wouldn’t be fired upon.”

Did you vote for Clinton?

Again, you cool with Saddam gassing the Kurds and building up his forces on the borders with our allies?

Q: Bribing UN officials?

What’s that have to do with the U.S.?

We are one of the five permanent members of the U.N. Security council. Oh, U.N. headquarters are in the United States.

It’s safe to say that without active American involvment, the U.N. is nothing more than a debating club.

Q: Throwing UN inspectors out at will/obstructing their inspections?

What’s that have to do with the U.S.?

Did you miss Gulf War I? Part of the cease fire agreement.

Q: Moving weapons/changing sites PRIOR to inspections?

What’s that have to do with the U.S.? How come we don’t invade Russia or England when they decide to make new weapons or build existing ones?

Oh wonderful. If you don’t do everything at once, then you can’t do anything. “I’m sorry maam, I can’t treat your heart attack because you have a speeding problem.”

Q: Not declaring weapon systems that we have subsequently found since the invasion?

Why should he be forced to declare anything when the U.S. refuses to declare the truth about it’s own weapons development programs?

Cool argument.

Q: The problem with the ABB crowd (among many things) is that they have offered EXACTLY ZERO in the way of a viable alternative.

What you fail to understand is that there is no “viable alternative” needed because Iraq was a non-issue until political spin-meisters decided to turn it into one, for their own gain. Do you know that Bush was planning to invade Iraq as soon as he entered office, way before 9/11? I take it you’ve never heard about the infamous White House Memo recorded in August of 2001 which detailed a conversation between Bushy and Rice about finding a valid reason to invade Iraq. A month later, they got one."

You have serious problems. “Iraq was a non-issue”???

"www.antiwar.com

Read it and learn. And before you start, it’s not liberal, and it’s not conservative. It’s libertarian, which used to mean conservative, until the conservative movement in this country turned fascist."

Oh, how special. What’s next, “Bush is Hitler”?

Weren’t you pissed that farenheit 911 didn’t win the oscar?

“Chances are, you know nothing about this, so just read the site and realize that nearly everything on it is backed up by a plethora of sources.”

michael moore is not a source. He is a sore.

In summary, thanks for your input. Unfortunately, you are one of the people that would not be receptive to any of my viewpoints. You don’t even acknowledge that Iraq was an issue. You are a subset of person (like lumpy, pox, aldurr, tme) who needs to be voted down at every opportunity. I strongly encourage you to exercise your civic duty to vote. I do hope that your viewpoints do not ever influence the national agenda.

JeffR

109

Dean wrote:

“I haven’t chimed in on this thread yet, Jeff, as after sanity’s defeat”

Or your viewpoints were wrong? I love you, man.

“in November,I felt emotionally drained and had to take a break from this forum! However, I have to agree with 100m and Al Shades. The alternative to the Iraq War was no Iraq war. We should have stopped at Afghanistan.”

I disagree. Allowing Saddam to publically fund terrorists attacking our ally, Israel, would have made a mockery of our “global war” on terror.

“And then got the fuck out of meddling in the Middle East! The main cause of terrorism against America is what America has done there.”

That is very close to trying to justify the tactic. I can’t come along with that line of thinking. It is pretty close to saying “we brought it on ourselves.”

NOTHING JUSTIFIES 911. Nothing!!!

“This does not make terrorism right, no one accuse me of that. Terrorists deserve a bullet. But why make more?”

Ever seen anyone stir up a hornet’s nest? When you disturb the nest, the hornet’s come out pissed off. Have you made new hornets? No. You’ve exposed the ones that were there. Just because you can’t see them, doesn’t mean they weren’t there. Oh, there are a limit to the hornets in the nest.

“I am more in line with you Repubs regarding the current state of most Middle Eastern nations- backward, almost savage in some ways. But is it our job to bring them democracy? I don’t think so. Those countries can achieve that in their own time, and not through the barrel of an M-16.”

Did you catch the elections in Iraq and Afghanistan? Did you see the Iraqi security forces patrolling their own ballot boxes.

THAT is our best protection against terrorism.

“Even if an improved society and government is achieved, they will not thank us for it. They will resent it.”

Did you catch the State of the Union? Ever hear some of the elected officials? Ever hear our soldiers talk?

“And I may receive some criticism from both liberals and conservatives alike for this comment, but why should Western lives be wasted to achieve this goal? Revolution should come from with, eg the French Revolution, and be deserved.”

The French Revolution occurred because they had an example, the United States. French line officers who served in our Revolution returned to France and spread the word. The populace read about it. They began to think about it.

I fear that many Iraqi’s have not had the ability to read, listen, or experience Democracy. Now that we have given them a taste, well…, you saw the first election.

“Things are stirring over there, regarding the move to democracy. This is incidental. It was never Bush’s stated aim until after the point.”

That is flat false. Please go to google and read his many speeches of 2002/2003. HUNDREDS OF TIMES he has stated that very aim.

‘We are bringing the Iraqi people freedom and democracy’ is a smokescreen. And no need to go on about invisible WMDs"

Found plenty of weapons and systems that Saddam was hiding. How much more proof do you require?

“and non-existent Al Qaeda cells.”

Really. How about Zarqawi’s organization? Active prior to the opening of the war.

“Bush, Rice, etc are doing their best to obscure their initial motives for the invasion. It’s a form of propaganda.”

Are we drifting into “it’s all about Halliburton.”

“‘Don’t wanna be an American Idiot
Don’t wanna nation under the new media
And can you hear the sound of hysteria?
The subliminal mindfuck America’”

I’m sorry you typed this.

“Well, Jeff, probably not what you were looking for, buddy. Stick up for your beliefs, but keep an open mind.”

I am, my friend. I must be frank, the elections in Iraq have made it increasingly hard for me to assign nefarious motives to the Administration. I would have a hard time speaking out against freedom.

JeffR

110

It has been argued that the US is an imperial power in all but name, in what amounts to be half arsed attempts at creating said empire.

Just maybe?

111

Also, JeffR, is this a perception of freedom?

There is a standard (your own) that is placed upon what you define as freedom.

Some may wish it was not to have a foreign power in their country, regardless of motive. Now, some others may wish that to be. There was no referendum to whether iraqis wanted invasion, which i appreciate is a moot point, and lesser of 2 evils etc…

But many iraqis had some semblence of stability, and as humans, that is what we wish for. acts like 9/11 knock that stability and ecurity. Having an occupyng force may just have that effect for many. This would in effect impinge on their “freedom”

112

Just nuke them and be done with it. Camels stink anyway LOL.

113

[quote]rainjack wrote:
They could privatize it and get a much better return on the dollars invested. But wait - then the liberals are convinced that private citizens are way to stupid to be trusted with their own money.

How much more money do you actually think will be raised by increasing the SS ceiling to 200,000? What percentage of americans make above 200K? Maybe 1%?

If Soc Sec can be saved by taxing up to 200k, there must be a shitload of wealthy folks in this country. It is credited to their account, and they wind up making even more money when they retire. So are you now pro-wealthy?

Go find an article you can plagerize, copy and paste to support your position. [/quote]

Good lord! You support this shit too! The president’s plan wouldn’t really allow you to pick your investments, so I guess he doesn’t trust you with your own money either. The most likely investments would be very conservative (index funds etc.) So figure in your cut in guaranteed benefits (40 percent right there) then subtract the compounding interest on the loan you took (trillions of dollars) and the administrative fees from the interest on your conservative mix of bond and stock index funds and you just got yourself ripped off! Great Plan!

This mind bendingly stupid plan does (as the President now says) nothing to increase solvency. It does the opposite. Great Mr. President, create a crisis, and come up with solution that worsens your created crisis.

114

JeffR

So painful.
The number one reason, the main reason we have terrorism is american occupation of muslim land. That is why Osama attacked us (ever heard his damn speeches that he still makes or do you even remember 9/11?), that’s why they’ll keep attacking.
Logic would tell you that occupying more land would create more terrorism. As a simple proof how many americans have been killed in Iraq since our occupation. Now I know you actually know this, but you just love being a good cheerleader. Remember how you cheered when you didn’t want to be the world’s police force 5 years ago, boy you cheered so loudly then.

115

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Depends on your viewpoint. In your home state of Mass., there are only degrees of liberalism. You may not be considered “liberal” next to Uncle Teddy. However, to the rest of the country…[/quote]

The terms liberal and conservative have no real meaning in American politics, since today’s “conservative” politicians are simply liberals who pretend to be libertarians once every 4 years. I’m an anarchist in principle and a libertarian in practice. If you think I might be a liberal, consider this quote from Harry Browne, whom I support:

“The federal government has no authority to be involved in any way in education, welfare, regulation, housing, health care, or crime control, and I want to remove the federal government from these areas completely and immediately.”

Does that sound liberal to you?

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Great. Isolationism works great. See history books.[/quote]

See Switzerland. See Canada. See America in the 19th century. See the principles of America’s founding fathers, who said:

“Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.”

~Thomas Jefferson

“America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy.”

~John Quincy Adams

“It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.”

~James Madison

Not cooler than the one which proposes the U.S. intervene in far off parts of the world over matters which don’t affect it.

Where else? Absolutely everywhere, that’s where. It’s not about having to “run away” when it gets hot. It’s about minding your own business and not going there in the first place. Pulling out would simply be the remedy to a mistake that has been perpetrated by scoundrels in the white house for 50 years.

The “world community” is a ficticious hoax; a scheme involving the governments of many nations, all bribed into submission and cooperation, chiefly by the U.S. The only true world community is the free market, and this is more hurt by the presence of governments than helped by it.

There’s a light way to put it.

The only worthwhile steps that can be taken are steps backward - that is, to erase the damage that has been done. It makes no sense to attempt to “fix” a problem by using the same strategy that has failed dozens of times before.

No, I was 5 years old. And why would I ever consider voting for someone whose chief policies consisted of expanding the federal government and waging imperial wars? Clinton in the Balkans, Bush in Baghdad. There is no absolutely no difference. Zero, zilch.

I don’t give half a shit about who Saddam gassed, partly because I’m an individualist-anarchist/egoist, but more importantly, because it doesn’t affect me or this country in the slightest way. Were you cool with the ATF gassing the Branch Davidians at Waco? How about the Truman administration testing nuclear devises on african-american citizens during WWII? The real question is: what does it matter whether or not you or I am “cool” with it? By the way, this country doesn’t have allies - it has paid client states and bribed mercenary armies.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
We are one of the five permanent members of the U.N. Security council. Oh, U.N. headquarters are in the United States.

It’s safe to say that without active American involvment, the U.N. is nothing more than a debating club.[/quote]

So let it be just that. Tell me, can you find the mention a U.N. in the United States Constitution? I can’t.

So you’re justifying one mistake by the existence of another. Quaint.

Hahaha. You ought to apply for a job at the Weekly Standard - you’d fit right in with the imperialist neocons who have taken over foreign policy in this administration. “Invade Russia?” “We’ll have the president get right on it!” These people already dream of “creative destruction” throughout the Middle East and envision a second Cold War, so this is hardly a stretch.

Thanks.

Yes. Iraq was and is a shit-ridden 3rd world country that posed absolutely no threat to the United States.

No, Bush is a dumbass. The people who tell him what to do, however, can be more closely associated with Lenin and Trotsky than Hitler. But then again, the onset of fascism in post-Weinmar Germany did come from the right, just as it has in this country.

Haven’t seen it, so no. From what I read about it, it didn’t contain any information that I wasn’t already aware of.

Michael Moore has nothing to do with antiwar.com, nor with me. I don’t care for the guy at all.

I’m not yet able to vote, since I’m 17. I don’t think I have any “civic duty” - nor duty to any authority besides myself. Since you seem to think opposite, however, I encourage YOU to exercise your “civic duty” and don the black and brown uniform of fascist pride.

116

Al Shades,

Thank you for your detailed response.

I earnestly hope that your views never catch on.

By the way, in the government you suggest, I’d come over to your house and take everything of value. You would be left with nothing. Then you would do what I say.

I would claim everything of yours based upon being larger, stronger, faster, smarter, and better.

Maybe you should re-think yourself.

Oh, the Constitution has Amendements for a reason. It is not a static document. The founding fathers knew that 2005 would be quite different than 1787.

Thanks!!! Good luck in the future!!!

JeffR

117

Al Shades,

An anarchist… awesome.

I like the idea of anarchy. I would get my pals together and take all of your stuff – your sister, your money, your Joe Weider’s Weightgainer 3000. You might defend yourself but it would be to no avail in the end.

After I was done looting your place, I would strip you down and put you in neck irons. Then everytime you said “I don’t have to say your pledge of allegiance MAN” my fat and massively strong friend Lou would hit you with a bamboo cane right in the back. We would repeat this process until you admitted what a great country the USA is.

You would refer to everyone as “sir” and “ma’am” and I would make you recite “George Bush is my hero” until your tongue was numb. Any deviation would be rewarded with the lash. Any time you started out with any of your east coast “Macchiato” bullshit we would crack your knuckles with a ruler. No more vegetarianism for you either pal – a straight red meat diet ought to cover up those ribs. I would also drag you to elections and force you to vote straight Republican. I would force you to say “I love the MidWest, only cum gurglers use the phrase ‘flyover states’”. Even though I don’t go to church, you would be the first one at the local Calvinist service and the last one to leave.

You would wear a shirt that says “I love the IRS,” with a flannel over the top. You would be forced to lift with us – starting weight in all compound lifts would be 405. Oh yes and we only do compound lifts. You would lift with us in the dungeon, with one swinging electric bulb a la Psycho. Either hit it or we laugh while you squirm. The neck irons would keep you alive during the bench press. We would then take turns testing abdominal tension Rocky IV style by smashing your stomach with our open palms.

After the red-meat only diet had packed on a few pounds to your hippy frame, it would be time for the great game of “find your father”. We would take you (in irons still, of course) and take you to meet your dad for the first time. You would both be forced to get a hair cut and say “Communism was not a good idea. Almost 100 million killed by their own governments in 100 years!” Refusal would lead to an immediate ass-caning.

After this session, it would be time to have a talk about the wisdom of seventeen year olds. You would be forced to say “I don’t know anything about government and I don’t know anything about lifting. Thank you mom for putting up with my rambling bullshit.” Then we would get rid of all of your black turtlenecks and matching black pants and shoes. You would be forced to wash… DAILY. I would rid your cell of incense, marijuana, cheap wine, and sandals.

Finally, we would force you to say “The CIA has never done anything wrong. All American intervention is for the better. I love McDonald’s and the Vietnam War. Fuck France, give me the Freedom Fries! I have a deep and abiding respect for the military and the religious right.” Any recalcitrance would be met with an immediate lashing with a 2x4 or set of 2x4’s used for board pressing.

Actually, now that I think about it, anarchy sounds like a great idea.

118

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Al Shades…

By the way, in the government you suggest, I’d come over to your house and take everything of value. You would be left with nothing. Then you would do what I say.[/quote]

You can do all of that right now, as can anyone else. Allow me to remind you that we aren’t living in the world of “Minority Report,” where crimes are prevented before being committed. The fact that you might incur legal repercussions for your actions at the hands of government does not matter to me whatsoever; it does not change the nature of this discussion. Government is a crutch for those too weak to exist as individuals; they must become part of the collective or die. In this way, the institutions of modern society, particularly government, subvert the natural order of human beings. Government is hypocrisy, it is coercion. It is an authority that dictates obedience from the masses while continually violating it’s own written laws. It is a tyrant that forbids slavery and the natural use of coercion among individuals, yet enslaves young men in it’s war machines and forces them to die without a cause. Anyone who must rely on such a crutch to sustain his existence is, by very nature, weak and pathetic, be it of spirit, body, or both.

[quote]JeffR wrote:I would claim everything of yours based upon being larger, stronger, faster, smarter, and better.

Maybe you should re-think yourself.[/quote]

Why rethink anything? That’s precisely the main principle behind my beliefs. If you were indeed faster, stronger, and smarter, would it not make sense for you to exert your dominance over those who were inferior? This is the natural order of man, and it cannot be altered - not by the existence of any “social contract” with government or any such artificial institution designed to forcibly “civilize” it’s constituents. Giving up your own natural right of power (however you may chose to visualize it) for the cause of living in a “civilized society” does not precipitate the same action by everyone around you. Rather, it merely weakens you against those persons who choose not to hold a similiar mindset (such as myself), and against the primary architect of coercion and opression in your “civilized” state of tyranny, which is the government.

With that being said, a heavily armed and active citizenry - as advocated by the forefathers of this nation - is absolutely essential in preventing the encroachment of authoritarianism upon personal freedoms. Unfortunately, this is not nearly enough - for it does nothing to protect against the putrid threat of collectivism, which goes together with centralized authoritarianism like bread and honey. For this reason I am an individualist-anarchist. Accordingly, I chose to place my prosperity and self-defense in my own hands, not in the false security (read: tyranny) of some “greater” (false) cause, be it that of god, religion, society, national patriotism, or civic devotion.

If you or any other individual was to try and forcibly impose a state of dominance on me, I would welcome the attempt whole-heartedly as a paradigm of the ubiquitous human urge for superiority, and would counter it ferociously and tenaciously with my own. To quote my signature from another forum:

I believe that the most noble thing one can do is physically confront another for possession of an item or percieved right.

With that being said, JeffR, if you feel inherently superior to me in any or every way, then by all means, bring it on. I’m a bodybuilder for many reasons beyond personal vanity, though it does rank high on the list. :wink:

119

Al,

I have to admit that I find your views interesting.

Not that I agree with your assertions.

However, you do have passion. I appreciate that.

I think time will show you that there needs to be an inherent restraint placed on the “animal” portion of our natures. There needs to be some degree of oversight, or our base natures run wild.

Think through your suggestions to their logical conclusions. Imagine an anarchial state devoid of the powers of taxation. Who would light your streets? Who would fight the crimes? Who would extinguish fires? Who would pay for national defense against aggressive invaders?

Even with your “armed citizenry,” they couldn’t possibly be everywhere and do everything at once. Further, I submit that they wouldn’t want to.

I am encouraged that you are actively participating in this forum. I sincerly hope that you spend some time debating your views face to face. I believe that you will change many (if not most) of your views over time.

Hopefully, your idealism will give way to an enlightened realism.

It’s called experience.

By the way, be careful of the “bring it on” attitude. There will always be guys who are bigger, smarter, faster, and stronger. Discretion is a tough lesson to learn. I hope you don’t have to go through too much pain to learn it.

JeffR

120

[quote]Al Shades wrote:
Why rethink anything? That’s precisely the main principle behind my beliefs. If you were indeed faster, stronger, and smarter, would it not make sense for you to exert your dominance over those who were inferior?[/quote]

I can understand that argument, except that I don’t understand what you expect the results to be. Assuming you have no religious motives behind your politics, then do you not have any theory regarding the purpose or ultimate end of mankind?

If you think a Hobbesian state of nature is preferable to any sort of government, then you’re essentially asking for a constant state of war. Who does that benefit? There are no Nietzschean supermen running around… no one is faster, stronger and smarter than everyone else.

Some people are smarter and weaker, and others are stronger and slower, etc. Society has generally solved this problem by creating divisions of labor. To each according to his ability, as it were.

Let me leave you with a final thought. Think of it this way. There is “anarchy,” but everyone in the government “won.” Hey, you can live like there are no laws right now, and I guarantee you, the results will be about the same.