Interview W/ L. Ron Hubbard Jr.

Off Topic
21

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
beebuddy wrote:
““To cut to the chase, I can assure you that the tenets of Scientology are rooted in so called “magic” and the “occult”.””

Yup. Interestingly, at it’s core ‘satanism’ is no more than self-worship. The main differences between satanism and your everyday run-of-the-mill narcissism are the delusions of grandeur (i.e. about being a god) and the ritualization of those delusions.

Well, I wouldn’t go so far as to call it delusions of grandeur - there are estoteric religious texts and interpretations of dogmatic texts that do support that you are God. In fact, Islamic offshoots (5%) teach that very concept. Satanism and black magic pretty much take that concept and then remove the moral restrictions.

There is a saying in occult circles that the only difference between white (good) and black (bad) magic is the results or intention of the magician.

However, I would not dismiss any of this as delusions; Without hijacking this thread too much I’ll leave you with something to consider: Think of the placebo effect in the context of the foregoing discussion. Now consider someone that dedicates considerable practice and time influencing his thoughts and body and you will begin to appreciate our untapped powers. The mind is far more powerful than many of us realize.

As to aliens, that is Hubbard’s science fiction background - but the foundation of his story - willing ourselves to existence, etc., very much has its roots in the occult. He was, without a doubt, an occultist.

The placebo effect demonstrates a deficiency, not a strength. I have no doubt that someone who spends considerable time and effort thinking about stuff like dianetics will become completely deluded, but that’s just commonplace human weakness, hardly godlike.[/quote]

Incorrect; on what basis do you believe the placebo effect to be a “weakness”? It demonstrates the power of the mind to control the body - quite by accident or without much self-control I might add. Now consider someone that practices control and KNOWS he can do certain things?

“Thinking about dianetics”? Ever read the book? I doubt it so how can you make a judgment? I read it many many years ago - don’t remember it and didn’t have the knowledge then to appreciate its roots but did you even read it?

And by the way, many an occultist has a much more balanced view of himself, the world and his place in it than the average dogmatic religious person - or are you forgetting the majority of our country that actuall believe the Bible of the unadulterated word of God? Yup, that is correct, a very high percentage of our population believe that. Even biblical scholars know that such a position is untenable. Whole different thread buddy.

22

““hence the absence of delusion as you perceive it.””

That’s non-sequitur. The “occultist’s” delusion is not about “God”, the delusion is about themselves. If the obvious perception that ego is thought is clear then there are no delusions (or questions) about God or gods.

23

“The “occultist’s” delusion is not about “God”, the delusion is about themselves.”

For clarity’s sake… delusions about God are not what were being addressed in the earlier post. The “I am God” delusion has nothing to do with the definition of “God” and everything to do with the reality of “I”.

24

[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Wait, Scientologists really believe there was some Xenu alien infected us all? I havent read up on it at all and my only contact with it is the South Park bashing of it.[/quote]

Scientologists basically pay money for counseling sessions. They call it auditing.

They believe all problems are caused by something called thetans.

The more money they pay and the more audits they have the higher they climb in the church. At the highest levels it is revealed that the source of these thetans is the aliens that Xenu banished to Earth millions of years ago.

The trick is the auditing sessions aremore like brainwashing and they get people to reveal their deepest darkest secrets. They then use these secrets to blackmail people if they turn against the church.

It is a sick cult. Hopefully with the internet and things like South Park shining the light of truth on it this cult will die out.

25

[quote]beebuddy wrote:
“The “occultist’s” delusion is not about “God”, the delusion is about themselves.”

For clarity’s sake… delusions about God are not what were being addressed in the earlier post. The “I am God” delusion has nothing to do with the definition of “God” and everything to do with the reality of “I”.[/quote]

Flowery circular language without the requisite understanding of the subject matter won’t cut it here. There are those that believe not in a singular traditional dogmatic “god” but rather that all of man were endowed with these god like powers. This is no more delusional than those that faint and speak in tongues at church or the basis for so-called faith healers. It is merely a different belief system. And it has nothing to do with an ego - except in the case of men like Hubbard and his ilk. But when an occultist refers to himself as a god, he is not speaking of the singular god you appear to believe in. I don’t know how to put it more simpler than that.

26

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
PGA200X wrote:
Wait, Scientologists really believe there was some Xenu alien infected us all? I havent read up on it at all and my only contact with it is the South Park bashing of it.

Scientologists basically pay money for counseling sessions. They call it auditing.

They believe all problems are caused by something called thetans.

The more money they pay and the more audits they have the higher they climb in the church. At the highest levels it is revealed that the source of these thetans is the aliens that Xenu banished to Earth millions of years ago.

The trick is the auditing sessions aremore like brainwashing and they get people to reveal their deepest darkest secrets. They then use these secrets to blackmail people if they turn against the church.

It is a sick cult. Hopefully with the internet and things like South Park shining the light of truth on it this cult will die out.[/quote]

Zap, you’re only correct on the most exoteric level - their manner of “auditing” and exploring one’s self has its roots in the occult - Hubbard did not make any of that stuff up - except of the science fiction of the aliens, thetans, etc. All of the principles are occult based - cloaked in Hubbard’s science fiction twist. Pick up his running buddy’s book and you’ll see it plain as day.

27

Uh, one other thing - they can’t even take credit for the sinister nature of “auditing” or have you forgotten “confession”?

28

““This is no more delusional than those that faint and speak in tongues at church or the basis for so-called faith healers. It is merely a different belief system.””

The “occultists”, the tounge-speaking faith healers and the scientologists are deluded. Obviously.

““And it has nothing to do with an ego””

Yes it does. You don’t understand the argument. If you are interested I reccomended re-reading it rather than putting up more strawmen because…

““singular god you appear to believe in.””

I never said anything (or alluded to anything) about what I believe in, only facts were stated.

29

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Uh, one other thing - they can’t even take credit for the sinister nature of “auditing” or have you forgotten “confession”?[/quote]

Yes I have. I have not been to confession in over 20 years. I always lied in confession anyway. I figured if God didn’t know what my sins were I wasn’t going to tell.

30

Wait…so Scientologists are all crazy because they beleive a bunch of weird things that are written in some book?

Exactly my point about all religion. I think that anyone who says they talk to god is either lying or insane.

Just like all the scientologists are brainwashed…so are all the Christians and Catholics and Jews and Muslims. They are all told a bunch of stories enough times until they believe them.

You know how crazy it sounds when I hear about some fiery place underground that you’ll be sent to when you die if you’re bad? I mean…do you people actually belive that crap?

Suckers!

I love Scientology because it is a perfect example of how silly organized religion is.

31

The genius of Scientology is they actually charge you a set fee rather than just asking for money at the end of mass.

Can you imagine if they charged you $100 a pop to go to church?

32

[quote]davidtower wrote:
Wait…so Scientologists are all crazy because they beleive a bunch of weird things that are written in some book?

Exactly my point about all religion. I think that anyone who says they talk to god is either lying or insane.

Just like all the scientologists are brainwashed…so are all the Christians and Catholics and Jews and Muslims. They are all told a bunch of stories enough times until they believe them.

You know how crazy it sounds when I hear about some fiery place underground that you’ll be sent to when you die if you’re bad? I mean…do you people actually belive that crap?

Suckers!

I love Scientology because it is a perfect example of how silly organized religion is.
[/quote]

You sir are correct! Finally, a ray of light.

33

[quote]beebuddy wrote:
““This is no more delusional than those that faint and speak in tongues at church or the basis for so-called faith healers. It is merely a different belief system.””

The “occultists”, the tounge-speaking faith healers and the scientologists are deluded. Obviously.

““And it has nothing to do with an ego””

Yes it does. You don’t understand the argument. If you are interested I reccomended re-reading it rather than putting up more strawmen because…

““singular god you appear to believe in.””

I never said anything (or alluded to anything) about what I believe in, only facts were stated.[/quote]

Strawmen? I’ll stop putting up so called straw men when you stop talking in circles. If you have a cogent argument, state it with specificity - I don’t think anyone can understand your point quite frankly.

34

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
Uh, one other thing - they can’t even take credit for the sinister nature of “auditing” or have you forgotten “confession”?

Yes I have. I have not been to confession in over 20 years. I always lied in confession anyway. I figured if God didn’t know what my sins were I wasn’t going to tell.

[/quote]

LOL EXACTLY. God also didn’t need a literary agent either because more wars have been fought in the name of religion than any other reason - and we still have major conflict in the world because of religion. I would think God, if He had chosen to write a book, would have written one book, with one clear meaning for all to either accept or reject.

If you happened to be born white, you were taught that this book is the bible; if you were born brown and didn’t have the “luck” of some white missionary coming along to convert and “save” you - you believed that book was the Koran - a belief by the way that, according to the christians, dooms you to hell - because you were born brown basically! LOL.

Belief is personal; whatever works for someone is ok with me. If it helps them be a better person, whether it be islam, christianity, scientology, or anything else “god” bless them :slight_smile:

35

There is absolutely nothing circular about this statement…

""That the individual is thought is an obvious perception. Therefore, the statement “I am God (a god)” is totally delusional. “”

The only way that a person can make the statement “I am God, I am a god, etc…” is if they ignore the very obvious perception that psyche (which is you) is THOUGHT. Therefore (note the lack of circular logic) it is false (deluded) to beleive oneself to be anything else. It’s so clear.

36

[quote]beebuddy wrote:
There is absolutely nothing circular about this statement…

""That the individual is thought is an obvious perception. Therefore, the statement “I am God (a god)” is totally delusional. “”

The only way that a person can make the statement “I am God, I am a god, etc…” is if they ignore the very obvious perception that psyche (which is what you are) is THOUGHT. Therefore (note the lack of circular logic) it is false (deluded) to beleive oneself to be anything else. It’s so clear.

[/quote]

Fine; and if you “think” - or rather believe you’re a god, you are. An important tenet of occult theory.

37

““Fine; and if you “think” - or rather believe you’re a god, you are. An important tenet of occult theory.””

But since you are thought that theory doesn’t make sense beceause thought does not always = god (although god always = thought.)

38

In other words any self-image is nothing more than thought. A self-image as a god is still just thought. Therefore belief in that thought is false and deluded because thinking something doesn’t make it so. Take Charles Manson for example. He thinks many things which are not so.

This is simple fact.

39

[quote]beebuddy wrote:
But since you are thought that theory doesn’t make sense beceause thought does not always = god (although god always = thought.)[/quote]

This isn’t necessarily true, it just shows that we don’t yet have a good enough vocabulary to discuss such things. Accepting the idea, for the moment, that ‘self=thought,’ how do you draw the conclusion that ‘thought does not always = god?’ You have no evidence for that assertion… thought MIGHT equal God. Further, it is obvious that we are suffering from a severe ambiguation of the term ‘God.’ What constitutes a god, or God? Omnipotence? If so, on what timescale? The act of creation? To what extent?

If I were you, and I really wanted to argue this, I would start out by wondering if the statement “I am a god” is meaningful in any practical or empirical sense. Otherwise, it’s a bunch of feel-good hooey; word salad. I’m not trying to pull a Wittgenstein here, but I do think this is a problem of language first, and science second.

40

I place Scientology in the same lump as Mormon and Jehovah’s witness. Cults