I’d rather have self-consciousness. The awareness to choose the good over the evil. To grow, to improve, to become better. I don’t allow evil to cause me to pine for an existence as an unawares simpleton, programmed for ‘good.’ The life of a lobotomized, drooling, teddy-bear isn’t for me. And in the end, that’s exactly what the above suggests. That we should’ve simply been created as automatons in paradise. No thanks.
So while we must suffer the consequences of choosing evil, I understand that I have been allowed to recognize it as evil. And, that I have the ability choose to oppose it, freely, consciously. Freely choosing to make better. To become better. It’s only through the ability to become worse, that I even have the ability to come closer to perfection for myself, and for the sake of others.
You look at the futility of it all. I look at the promise, the hope, the possibilities. And, I keep in mind how a lifetime of holding onto these things can complete a soul endowed with free will. But, ulimately, you’re free to decide how to view the world.[/quote]
…you can have this outlook on life without a god watching over you, the only difference is that you don’t have a prize waiting for you at the end…
[/quote]
Hey, I wouldn’t even know I was wrong. So, I got that going for me, at least.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Can anyone present me any non-Biblical contemporary evidence of Jesus? These would include Roman records, passengers traveling by, etc.[/quote]
I would imagine you already have the answer for the question you are asking.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Can anyone present me any non-Biblical contemporary evidence of Jesus? These would include Roman records, passengers traveling by, etc.[/quote]
I would imagine you already have the answer for the question you are asking. [/quote]
I cannot find any evidence, but I find it terrifying nobody else has any.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Can anyone present me any non-Biblical contemporary evidence of Jesus? These would include Roman records, passengers traveling by, etc.[/quote]
I would imagine you already have the answer for the question you are asking. [/quote]
I cannot find any evidence, but I find it terrifying nobody else has any.[/quote]
As of an actual contemporary outside of the Bible there are none. There are two that come close to contemporary (Josephus and Tacitus, before anyone objects to Josephus I think the writing is legit, but tampered with to bolster Josephus view of Christ). and many that come with in a few century. I think you are asking a lot considering the emphasis of the culture on Oral tradition vs. written word. As well as who knows what was lost in the Jewish war. What we do have though is quite impressive for its day and time.
With that said I can understand why skeptics want more. It does leave a little to be desired, but can be brought into favorable light with a little more understand of the culture and anthropology.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Can anyone present me any non-Biblical contemporary evidence of Jesus? These would include Roman records, passengers traveling by, etc.[/quote]
I would imagine you already have the answer for the question you are asking. [/quote]
I cannot find any evidence, but I find it terrifying nobody else has any.[/quote]
As of an actual contemporary outside of the Bible there are none. There are two that come close to contemporary (Josephus and Tacitus, before anyone objects to Josephus I think the writing is legit, but tampered with to bolster Josephus view of Christ). and many that come with in a few century. I think you are asking a lot considering the emphasis of the culture on Oral tradition vs. written word. As well as who knows what was lost in the Jewish war. What we do have though is quite impressive for its day and time.
With that said I can understand why skeptics want more. It does leave a little to be desired, but can be brought into favorable light with a little more understand of the culture and anthropology.[/quote]
Thank you for being open minded. I’m going to continue to investigate Josephus and try to find the truth about his writings. Even though he wasn’t a contemporary, surely someone had to write about Jesus. During this time, their were many records kept by the romans.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Can anyone present me any non-Biblical contemporary evidence of Jesus? These would include Roman records, passengers traveling by, etc.[/quote]
I would imagine you already have the answer for the question you are asking. [/quote]
I cannot find any evidence, but I find it terrifying nobody else has any.[/quote]
As of an actual contemporary outside of the Bible there are none. There are two that come close to contemporary (Josephus and Tacitus, before anyone objects to Josephus I think the writing is legit, but tampered with to bolster Josephus view of Christ). and many that come with in a few century. I think you are asking a lot considering the emphasis of the culture on Oral tradition vs. written word. As well as who knows what was lost in the Jewish war. What we do have though is quite impressive for its day and time.
With that said I can understand why skeptics want more. It does leave a little to be desired, but can be brought into favorable light with a little more understand of the culture and anthropology.[/quote]
Thank you for being open minded. I’m going to continue to investigate Josephus and try to find the truth about his writings. Even though he wasn’t a contemporary, surely someone had to write about Jesus. During this time, their were many records kept by the romans.
[/quote]
I doubt it and here is why. We have almost no evidence of Pilate the procurator of the area, and he was even believed to be a mythical character until just recently. He has no contempories either.
I’d rather have self-consciousness. The awareness to choose the good over the evil. To grow, to improve, to become better. I don’t allow evil to cause me to pine for an existence as an unawares simpleton, programmed for ‘good.’ The life of a lobotomized, drooling, teddy-bear isn’t for me. And in the end, that’s exactly what the above suggests. That we should’ve simply been created as automatons in paradise. No thanks.
So while we must suffer the consequences of choosing evil, I understand that I have been allowed to recognize it as evil. And, that I have the ability choose to oppose it, freely, consciously. Freely choosing to make better. To become better. It’s only through the ability to become worse, that I even have the ability to come closer to perfection for myself, and for the sake of others.
You look at the futility of it all. I look at the promise, the hope, the possibilities. And, I keep in mind how a lifetime of holding onto these things can complete a soul endowed with free will. But, ulimately, you’re free to decide how to view the world.[/quote]
…you can have this outlook on life without a god watching over you, the only difference is that you don’t have a prize waiting for you at the end…
[/quote]
Hey, I wouldn’t even know I was wrong. So, I got that going for me, at least.[/quote]
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[/quote]
Of course there is Alan Plantinga’s solution to the logical problem of Evil and God.[/quote]
…not without interpreting God’s reasons for allowing evil from a human point of view, which amounts to nothing but opinion…
[/quote]
Lots of things only amount to an opinion. Every conversation I have ever had with someone usually ends up with little facts and lots of opinion. Some opinions though have merit and are worthy of concideration for being valid.
[/quote]
…sure, but the numerous threads on religion shows us that more than a couple of people attach so much value to their opinion on religous matters that those religous matters become a matter of fact, and skews their outlook on reality…
…sure, but the numerous threads on religion shows us that more than a couple of people attach so much value to their opinion on religous matters that those religous matters become a matter of fact, and skews their outlook on reality…[/quote]
Oh don’t limit that to religion. That is common in all threads on this site. As well as any area of study. There are very few people that actually look at both sides of the evidence and still accept that they can be wrong with the side the choose to accept. I only know of a few people that are that honest.
Now as a side note. Christianity would go over alot better if with the rational explination, if we actually lived it. The problem is we tend to get so focused on the “converting” that we forget the Human being.
I often think of this quote
“I love Christ, but I despise Christians because they do not live as Christ lived.” ~ghandi
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Can anyone present me any non-Biblical contemporary evidence of Jesus? These would include Roman records, passengers traveling by, etc.[/quote]
I would also ask if you have any contemporary evidence of the existence of Plato, Aristotle or Socrates apart from the copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of thier original writings . . .
Did you kow that the oldest copy we have of Plato’s writings is from 900 AD and that he lived in 400 BC - a separation of 1,300 years?
Did you know that the oldest copy we have of Tacitus’ writings is from 1100 AD anf that he lived in 100 BC - a separation of 1,000 years?
Did you know that the oldest copy we have of Aristotle’s works is also from 1100 AD?
Did you know that the oldest copy we have of any NT text dates from 120 AD and that the originals were written between 60 and 100 AD - a separation of no more than 60 years from the actual original document?
Did you know that we only have 7 copies of Plato’s works, 20 copies of Tactitus’ and only 5 copies of Aristotle’s (oldest from 900 AD) - compare that with 5,000 Greek copies, 8,000 Latin copies and more than 350 Syriac copes of the NT all done by the early 5th century?
Did you know that of the 5,000 Greek copies there is only a variance of 2% from the oldest copies and that those variances are spellings of names and places and other such copyist errors all of which are identifiable/correctable and none of which changes any passage’s interpretation?
…sure, but the numerous threads on religion shows us that more than a couple of people attach so much value to their opinion on religous matters that those religous matters become a matter of fact, and skews their outlook on reality…[/quote]
Oh don’t limit that to religion. That is common in all threads on this site. As well as any area of study. There are very few people that actually look at both sides of the evidence and still accept that they can be wrong with the side the choose to accept. I only know of a few people that are that honest.
Now as a side note. Christianity would go over alot better if with the rational explination, if we actually lived it. The problem is we tend to get so focused on the “converting” that we forget the Human being.
I often think of this quote
“I love Christ, but I despise Christians because they do not live as Christ lived.” ~ghandi
[/quote]
…but only religion has such an impact on society that it invokes war and bloodshed on a grand scale. Not to mention the pain and suffering scores of people go through every day by being ostracised for being different. The inherent appeal to authority of man, not the message, that permeates religion is the cause of this, and that won’t change…
…sure, but the numerous threads on religion shows us that more than a couple of people attach so much value to their opinion on religous matters that those religous matters become a matter of fact, and skews their outlook on reality…[/quote]
Oh don’t limit that to religion. That is common in all threads on this site. As well as any area of study. There are very few people that actually look at both sides of the evidence and still accept that they can be wrong with the side the choose to accept. I only know of a few people that are that honest.
Now as a side note. Christianity would go over alot better if with the rational explination, if we actually lived it. The problem is we tend to get so focused on the “converting” that we forget the Human being.
I often think of this quote
“I love Christ, but I despise Christians because they do not live as Christ lived.” ~ghandi
[/quote]
…but only religion has such an impact on society that it invokes war and bloodshed on a grand scale. Not to mention the pain and suffering scores of people go through every day by being ostracised for being different. The inherent appeal to authority of man, not the message, that permeates religion is the cause of this, and that won’t change…[/quote]
Is that your opinion, or are you stating that as a fact?
…sure, but the numerous threads on religion shows us that more than a couple of people attach so much value to their opinion on religous matters that those religous matters become a matter of fact, and skews their outlook on reality…[/quote]
Oh don’t limit that to religion. That is common in all threads on this site. As well as any area of study. There are very few people that actually look at both sides of the evidence and still accept that they can be wrong with the side the choose to accept. I only know of a few people that are that honest.
Now as a side note. Christianity would go over alot better if with the rational explination, if we actually lived it. The problem is we tend to get so focused on the “converting” that we forget the Human being.
I often think of this quote
“I love Christ, but I despise Christians because they do not live as Christ lived.” ~ghandi
[/quote]
…but only religion has such an impact on society that it invokes war and bloodshed on a grand scale. Not to mention the pain and suffering scores of people go through every day by being ostracised for being different. The inherent appeal to authority of man, not the message, that permeates religion is the cause of this, and that won’t change…[/quote]
Is that your opinion, or are you stating that as a fact?
