Insulin Advice

Mr_Walkway · August 28, 2013, 12:38am

[quote]c.m.l. wrote:
Can taking it throughout the day or just PWO have a detrimental effect on insulin sensitivity or natural insulin production? The whole cascade of negative effects of the so-called ‘metabolic syndrome’ begins with the presence of too much insulin if I’m not mistaken.

I decided to link this thread as there is some good information in it:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/insulin_use_during_bulk?id=1765950&pageNo=1

However I think the discussion is limited to the faster acting insulin humalog and novalog. In the thread it mentions that one should consume roughly 15g carbs per iu every 45 mins after injection, yet I wonder if this rule of thumb differs for the slower releasing insulin. Even if the insulin is releasing at a slower rate, a meal consumed during the PWO should have its own release of insulin accompanied by a heightened insulin sensitivity so perhaps it couldn’t hurt to follow the same protocol. For most things I would say I may be over-analyzing things but with something this serious, I feel the inquiries are warranted.

“The pharmacologic effect of Novolin R begins approximately one-half (Ã?Â½) hour after subcutaneous administration. The effect is maximal between 2Ã?Â½ and 5 hours and terminates after approximately 8 hours.”

The above refers to subQ, does anyone have any more specific data or suggestions regarding IM/IV injections? 8 hours seems a bit lengthy for my taste, I may have to adapt my workout schedule, the last thing I’d like to do is take it later in the day, fall asleep and go hypoglycemic during the night.

[/quote]

using insulin lowers insulin sensitivity. This is why we usually do 1-2 month cycles using only on workout days.

gh also lowers insulin sensitivity…

15g carbs per iu is too much IMO, you will get quite fat

IIRC, IM is faster than subq but offers less absorption, IV is basically instant

c_m_l · August 28, 2013, 1:34am

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]c.m.l. wrote:
Can taking it throughout the day or just PWO have a detrimental effect on insulin sensitivity or natural insulin production? The whole cascade of negative effects of the so-called ‘metabolic syndrome’ begins with the presence of too much insulin if I’m not mistaken.

I decided to link this thread as there is some good information in it:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/insulin_use_during_bulk?id=1765950&pageNo=1

However I think the discussion is limited to the faster acting insulin humalog and novalog. In the thread it mentions that one should consume roughly 15g carbs per iu every 45 mins after injection, yet I wonder if this rule of thumb differs for the slower releasing insulin. Even if the insulin is releasing at a slower rate, a meal consumed during the PWO should have its own release of insulin accompanied by a heightened insulin sensitivity so perhaps it couldn’t hurt to follow the same protocol. For most things I would say I may be over-analyzing things but with something this serious, I feel the inquiries are warranted.

“The pharmacologic effect of Novolin R begins approximately one-half (Ã??Ã?Â½) hour after subcutaneous administration. The effect is maximal between 2Ã??Ã?Â½ and 5 hours and terminates after approximately 8 hours.”

The above refers to subQ, does anyone have any more specific data or suggestions regarding IM/IV injections? 8 hours seems a bit lengthy for my taste, I may have to adapt my workout schedule, the last thing I’d like to do is take it later in the day, fall asleep and go hypoglycemic during the night.

[/quote]

using insulin lowers insulin sensitivity. This is why we usually do 1-2 month cycles using only on workout days.

gh also lowers insulin sensitivity…

15g carbs per iu is too much IMO, you will get quite fat

IIRC, IM is faster than subq but offers less absorption, IV is basically instant[/quote]

Thanks as always mr.ww your advice is invaluable.

Having done further research it says around 7g per iu, 10 to be safe.

Also the half life I posted earlier doesnt seem to be accurate, 30 min to start 2 hours to peak and 4 hours to clear seems to be closer for novolin r.

From what I’m gathering, it seems that the fast acting sugars you ingest should be done immediately following the shot, while you should time the peak to land around your meal. Does this sound correct or is it more like simply ingesting X amount of carbs periodically til it leaves your system?

What I’m thinking atm is to pin PWO and immediately drink some whey+simple sugar, wait about an hour and some odd minutes to let it peak then consume a large meal. Perhaps do something similar in the AM after I get accustomed to dealing with it properly.

Also I feel as though initially with my dose being fairly low (im thinking 5-6iu pwo to start, maybe 8iu to after I get a feel for it), it may not be enough to adequately cover my pwo meal which consists typically of 36gx4 (rice) and 17gx2(honey) total 176g carbs along with beef (cooked with 30ml coco oil) and whey. Granted it will take time to digest all that so I figure if I consume this 15 mins before the peak at the 2 hour mark, that will be about 3 45 min increments until the insulin clears (3 x 6iu x 10g = 180g). Am I thinking along the correct lines or would it be safer to split that meal in 2 servings, I know white rice has high GI and probably wont stick around too long.

I feel like the more I think the more questions I have, I may just have to tread cautiously and see what happens.

Mr_Walkway · August 28, 2013, 2:48am

I would definitely split the meal up into 2 meals… the protein will slow the digestion of the carbs and the fat from the beef + coconut oil it’s cooked in

I don’t understand why people use insulin post-workout as pre-workout is definitely the superior way… there really is no need to start so low with insulin, it’d be like cycling with 250mg test/week… ive gone hypo numerous times and it’s not that big of a deal… you feel the effects long before you are in any danger. people complicate the matter and take too many precautions (IE eating too many carbs), all it does it make them fat.

c_m_l · August 28, 2013, 3:10am

Hmm, thanks for the heads up, I think its natural to be cautious when they say misuse can kill you, but I suppose I was fearful of how imminent the danger is after the onset of hypo symptoms. What you haven’t experienced tends to be far more frightful than reality!

For me I would be reticent to take it preworkout due to the length of my workout bouts. Most days clear 2 hours, leg day easily clears 3 and I would hit my peak insulin levels while I’m still there, but I having zero experience I can’t say outside of uninformed intuition that thats a detriment.

And not to say you had any intention, but this is by no means an invitation for someone to chastise me about the duration of my workouts either, I grow weary of defending my training style against those who insist you shouldn’t be there past the 45 minute mark.

I mean I suppose I could take a bunch of whey protein and honey and creatine/glutamine/bcaas and such while I’m there, I guess I just supposed it would better accompanied by a hearty meal, but natural insulin might cover that anyway. Perhaps as someone who tends to empty his glycogen each session anyway, maybe there is a logic in preworkout, when you say “definitely superior” it doesn’t leave much room for discussion.

c_m_l · August 28, 2013, 5:02am

As an update I have spent so much time reading this evening I feel as though my eyes are going to bleed.

I’m beginning to agree with the wisdom of pre-workout use. It seems that PWO slin is unnecessary as you are most likely going to eat a big meal and get a good spike already, any exogenous insulin would be in a sense overkill.

But this has me wondering: if use during workout is meant to keep glycogen stores up, and shuttle other goodies in along with it as you are using it, assuming the exogenous insulin clears be then, will this in some manner alter the efficacy of the PWO window? I mean if the muscle is no longer in such dire need of replenishment due to the heightened peri-workout nutrient absorption, will it still maintain a heightened insulin sensitivity following the exercise bout? I mean I suppose if the actual tissue micro-trauma is substantial it couldn’t possibly be repaired immediately, so perhaps it would still be sensitive but then again the muscle can store so much, leaving the rest to be stored as adipose.

I’m realize I’m just going to have to experiment and risk being above my lifelong 10%bf.

I’m also getting the impression that this may actually be a more useful tool when keeping a lower carb diet! Effectively it will give you a more direct control of how your carbs are administered.

Westclock · August 28, 2013, 5:37am

Highly recommend against insulin usage even for advanced users.

Mr_Walkway · August 28, 2013, 5:40am

im not exactly sure what you are asking.

but someone who trains as long as you do could certainly benefit from pre-workout insulin (IE it’s very anti-catabolic effects).

I take 10iu Humalog pre-workout, sip on 80g of carbs, 50g of whey hydrosylate, some leucine, beta alanine, etc…etc…

if you are really concerned about going hypo, then throw some glutamine in there… that will really help to keep your blood sugar levels stable.

I use novalin R 2x a day on workout days. with meal 1, and with my post-workout meal. I also use Humalog pre-workout to cover my intra-workout nutrition. exogenous insulin is in my system basically all day on workout days

c_m_l · August 28, 2013, 2:10pm

Thanks again mr.ww, I’m gonna go ahead and bow out of this thread now, I’m going to try a week’s worth of preworkout only novolin R taken roughly 45 mins prior to work out followed by a weeks worth only PWO just gather a little experience with it and make some conclusions based on that.

[quote]Westclock wrote:
Highly recommend against insulin usage even for advanced users.[/quote]

However, care to elaborate? I remember digging up an old thread in which this guy whose handle was Prisoner arguing with BBB (whom I wish was still around) quite vehemently against the use of insulin although he made himself come off as a prick. I’ve read of others who share this sentiment as well, basically either the risk to reward was not worth it, that it was unnecessary, or that there were longer term health risks. Also a fear that insulin provides that gut that I assume is actually long term HGH use.

cycobushmaster · August 29, 2013, 2:47am

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
I take 10iu novalin R with meal 1 and another 10iu with my post workout meal

I take 10iu Humalog pre-workout and sip on a shake containing leucine, whey hydro, creatine, beta alanine, and glycerol monostearate and 80g of carbs

pharmacies have to give you insulin if you ask for it. Humulin R and Novalin R are over the counter (without prescription)… it has to be readily available in case of emergency (high blood sugar can lead to coma etc…)

if they refuse to give you humulin R/novalin R, they don’t know what they are doing and you need to speak to their supervisor.

I buy novalin R because it’s about $25, humulin R is $85-100 because eli lilly terminated their contract with a lot of providers. the two bottles are essentially the same exact thing. [/quote]

uhm, my wife is a type 1 diabetic (doesn’t produce ANY natural insulin), and she takes 1 iu of Humalog for 20-25 grams of carbs, and she’s less sensitive right now due to prednisone. you’re talking about a 1:8 ratio, and you still produce insulin on your own…

this seems quite surprising to me…

Mr_Walkway · August 31, 2013, 1:20am

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote: