In Soviet Russia....

Off Topic
381

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
Dr.Matt I am sorry to hear about your hardship as a kid under totalitarian socialism, but as an socialist I feel it is my duty to create some balance here. I am shure you know that there are other forms of socialism than the totalitarian one that you experienced and that the socialist movement originally where not anti-democratic nor elitist. As some examples I can name the Paris commune of 1872, or the anarcho-socialist colletives in spain during the spanish civil war or the socialist labour movement in europeen countrys who have been standing on the baricades for over a century fighting for the rights of workers and other second class citizenry and winning some of those fights. Just adding that to the big picture.

Feel free to flame, but I want give a shit. [/quote]

I won’t flame you for being a socialist, but keep in mind that the Soviet Union did not start out as a totalitarian state either, nor did many other socialist or communist countries that became totalitarian regimes. I don’t even need to do an in depth analysis of why communism and socialism do not work on a large scale. All one has to do is look at all the socialist and communist countries that do and have existed to see how much worse life has been for the majority of citizens and how corrupt the governments became to see that communism and socialism do not work on a large scale. Small communities may have a better go at it, I don’t know. The stories I have told of my life in the Soviet Union are not out of the ordinary, the majority of Soviet citizens lived like this and so have many other people in other communist and socialist countries.
[/quote]

I dont have much time know, but I can I touch on some of what you wrote in your response to me. When it comes to that soviet russia and other totalitarian socialist regimes are a proof that socialism can never work, I find that a bit simplistic and a bit unscientific. One should atleast look at the historical context the soviet union was born out of before one are to just say it was the fault of socialism. The fact is that Russia where a pre-industrial country for the most part back in 1917 and without much democratic traditions. Basickly the bolshevics skipped the part in the marxist doctrine where it says that socialism are only possible in a society with a highly developed industry and with democratic traditions. Thats one possible reason why it failed. Also I must add that Lenins idea of an revolutionary elite is a dangerous one and is also a possible explanation why the russian experiment did end as the dictarurship of the party rather than the dictaturship of the proletariat. I wish the workers counsils power hadnt been sucked up by the party elite, but thats how power works perhaps ot perhaps the civil war somewhat created an enviroment where a all-powerfull party dictaturship could rise from.

Thats all the time I have now, but I will respond more tomorrow.

btw: I am not looking for an argument, but rather a good discussion about this and I wasnt afraid that you would flame me btw. I am expecting that from others.

I can finish up this with a paraphrase of Bakunin who where an anarcho-socialist:

“Socialism without freedom is brutality and slavery, and freedom wihtout socialism is privileges and injustice”

382

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
Dr.Matt I am sorry to hear about your hardship as a kid under totalitarian socialism, but as an socialist I feel it is my duty to create some balance here. I am shure you know that there are other forms of socialism than the totalitarian one that you experienced and that the socialist movement originally where not anti-democratic nor elitist. As some examples I can name the Paris commune of 1872, or the anarcho-socialist colletives in spain during the spanish civil war or the socialist labour movement in europeen countrys who have been standing on the baricades for over a century fighting for the rights of workers and other second class citizenry and winning some of those fights. Just adding that to the big picture.

Feel free to flame, but I want give a shit. [/quote]

I won’t flame you for being a socialist, but keep in mind that the Soviet Union did not start out as a totalitarian state either, nor did many other socialist or communist countries that became totalitarian regimes. I don’t even need to do an in depth analysis of why communism and socialism do not work on a large scale. All one has to do is look at all the socialist and communist countries that do and have existed to see how much worse life has been for the majority of citizens and how corrupt the governments became to see that communism and socialism do not work on a large scale. Small communities may have a better go at it, I don’t know. The stories I have told of my life in the Soviet Union are not out of the ordinary, the majority of Soviet citizens lived like this and so have many other people in other communist and socialist countries.
[/quote]

I dont have much time know, but I can I touch on some of what you wrote in your response to me. When it comes to that soviet russia and other totalitarian socialist regimes are a proof that socialism can never work, I find that a bit simplistic and a bit unscientific. One should atleast look at the historical context the soviet union was born out of before one are to just say it was the fault of socialism. The fact is that Russia where a pre-industrial country for the most part back in 1917 and without much democratic traditions. Basickly the bolshevics skipped the part in the marxist doctrine where it says that socialism are only possible in a society with a highly developed industry and with democratic traditions. Thats one possible reason why it failed. Also I must add that Lenins idea of an revolutionary elite is a dangerous one and is also a possible explanation why the russian experiment did end as the dictarurship of the party rather than the dictaturship of the proletariat. I wish the workers counsils power hadnt been sucked up by the party elite, but thats how power works perhaps ot perhaps the civil war somewhat created an enviroment where a all-powerfull party dictaturship could rise from.

Thats all the time I have now, but I will respond more tomorrow.

btw: I am not looking for an argument, but rather a good discussion about this and I wasnt afraid that you would flame me btw. I am expecting that from others.

I can finish up this with a paraphrase of Bakunin who where an anarcho-socialist:

“Socialism without freedom is brutality and slavery, and freedom wihtout socialism is privileges and injustice”

[/quote]

If you want to discuss this, I am willing to do so but start a thread in PWI. This thread is about stories of growing up in the Soviet Union, and other communist and socialist countries, not a political debate about socialism or communism, which is why I started it in GAL.

384

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]guhkes wrote:
Congratulations Matt.

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Suomi perkele!! ;))

Mannerheim rules![/quote]

SKELAC, you sure know everything, that one needs to know to please a Finn.

Back to the CCCP. I think this wasn’t yet covered, but isn’t it true, that CCCP was organized so, that not one state/district could live by itself. One or couple of states produced the cars, few produced oil and so forth. So material was flowing thru places, made good railroad network, created work, but was really made to prevent any state to become too independent.[/quote]

I dont know the true meaning of your comment-is it irony or what?!
Anyway,I have a few good friends from Finland and theres also a fact that in Second World War,Croats fought with on the same side along Finns and Slovacs,backed by Vatican against the communists! Old friendship goes a long way. [/quote]

No irony in my comment bro. Mannerheim was the biggest war hero in Finland and perkele is probably the second most common used cursing word. It’s like an exclamation mark to every sentence.

Yea, we were on the good cause (fighting communism), but not everyone saw that at that time. Allies learned it too late when Europe was already cut in half.

385

[quote]florelius wrote:
Dr.Matt I am sorry to hear about your hardship as a kid under totalitarian socialism, but as an socialist I feel it is my duty to create some balance here. I am shure you know that there are other forms of socialism than the totalitarian one that you experienced and that the socialist movement originally where not anti-democratic nor elitist. As some examples I can name the Paris commune of 1872, or the anarcho-socialist colletives in spain during the spanish civil war or the socialist labour movement in europeen countrys who have been standing on the baricades for over a century fighting for the rights of workers and other second class citizenry and winning some of those fights. Just adding that to the big picture.

Feel free to flame, but I want give a shit. [/quote]

I get you florelius. You’re from Norway and you want to say that not all socialism is bad. All the Scandinavian countries are good example of it. Most of them rank among the best countries in the world according many different kind of studies. So I agree with you.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic-of-the-worlds-best-countries.html

PS. I like you Norwegians just because of the fact that we have a common foe, the Sweden :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

386

[quote]guhkes wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
Dr.Matt I am sorry to hear about your hardship as a kid under totalitarian socialism, but as an socialist I feel it is my duty to create some balance here. I am shure you know that there are other forms of socialism than the totalitarian one that you experienced and that the socialist movement originally where not anti-democratic nor elitist. As some examples I can name the Paris commune of 1872, or the anarcho-socialist colletives in spain during the spanish civil war or the socialist labour movement in europeen countrys who have been standing on the baricades for over a century fighting for the rights of workers and other second class citizenry and winning some of those fights. Just adding that to the big picture.

Feel free to flame, but I want give a shit. [/quote]

I get you florelius. You’re from Norway and you want to say that not all socialism is bad. All the Scandinavian countries are good example of it. Most of them rank among the best countries in the world according many different kind of studies. So I agree with you.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic-of-the-worlds-best-countries.html

PS. I like you Norwegians just because of the fact that we have a common foe, the Sweden ;P[/quote]

All top countries are either European or former British colonies plus Japan and South Korea.
No surprise…

I’m half Norwegian and when I was a kid, about Swedes I heard that they were bad people and from Finnish, that they were dangerous people who should never be trusted.

387

[quote]Edevus wrote:
I’m half Norwegian and when I was a kid, about Swedes I heard that they were bad people and from Finnish, that they were dangerous people who should never be trusted. [/quote]

Oh man. That’s too funny. I admit, too much berserker in Finnish blood heritage, but never to be trusted is as wrong as it could get.

Back to the topic (off topic that is). Matt mentioned the Stalin purges back in 30’s. He killed big portion of able officers in the red army and replaced them with political officers. The most traumatized men in Finnish army after the winter war, were the machine gunners. There were Red Army company after company marching forward in formation towards the machine gun fire. Front row had guns and most of had none. When men started falling, the men from behind would pick up the weapons from the first row. If someone tried to flee, the political officers, who came behind the formation, would shoot those themselves (i’ve heard some gunners tell this story with tears in their eyes. They knew the enemy soldiers just had no chance at the time). The CCCP propaganda at the time was that red army was coming to liberate Finland to communism. And soviet privates believed it in the beginning and were wondering why they were shot at.

Those were the days when strong political beliefs met the real world bullets. Stalin made changes shortly after the war, but not fast enough before the Germans started their march.

Matt probably knows more about the political officers and their role in the red army. i would like to hear more about it.

388

I’ve read Sven Hassel novels. He’s supposed (it’s not confirmed) to be a former German soldier who wrote all his experiences (mixed with some fantasy). He mentions especifically that, unarmed Soviets picking the weapons of fallen comrades because they didn’t have enough.

The casualties of the Soviet Union in the WWII war are brutal. Tactics? What tactics?

More into this Hassel :

EDIT : More specifically about the Finnish, I remember someone telling me that “Finnish men always wear a concealed knife”. I really pictured Finland as a barbaric place filled with strong and tall men…and my Finnish friend says that Finnish men are totally pussified right now.

389

[quote]guhkes wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]guhkes wrote:
Congratulations Matt.

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Suomi perkele!! ;))

Mannerheim rules![/quote]

SKELAC, you sure know everything, that one needs to know to please a Finn.

Back to the CCCP. I think this wasn’t yet covered, but isn’t it true, that CCCP was organized so, that not one state/district could live by itself. One or couple of states produced the cars, few produced oil and so forth. So material was flowing thru places, made good railroad network, created work, but was really made to prevent any state to become too independent.[/quote]

I dont know the true meaning of your comment-is it irony or what?!
Anyway,I have a few good friends from Finland and theres also a fact that in Second World War,Croats fought with on the same side along Finns and Slovacs,backed by Vatican against the communists! Old friendship goes a long way. [/quote]

No irony in my comment bro. Mannerheim was the biggest war hero in Finland and perkele is probably the second most common used cursing word. It’s like an exclamation mark to every sentence.

Yea, we were on the good cause (fighting communism), but not everyone saw that at that time. Allies learned it too late when Europe was already cut in half.[/quote]

Finland proved in The Winter War to be a tough little country with the balls to resist the mighty stalinist Soviet Union.

Along perkele,I also heard this vittu word,which means something like shit.I especaily like turpakini(shut your horse mouth) :)))

I lived half a year with a Finnish girlfriend,she was very hot-tempered-I figured she couldnt be any way different as Finns are half-Vikings and half-Mongols plus the lumberjack thing in Arctic weather! :)))

I got to get legless drunk every weekend,sing karaoke and hear about ice hockey until my ears bled (Pori Assat!!) hahahaha!!!
Great people whose Finns! And I miss that crazy Finn girl! :))

390

[quote]Edevus wrote:
I’ve read Sven Hassel novels. He’s supposed (it’s not confirmed) to be a former German soldier who wrote all his experiences (mixed with some fantasy). He mentions especifically that, unarmed Soviets picking the weapons of fallen comrades because they didn’t have enough.

The casualties of the Soviet Union in the WWII war are brutal. Tactics? What tactics?

More into this Hassel :

EDIT : More specifically about the Finnish, I remember someone telling me that “Finnish men always wear a concealed knife”. I really pictured Finland as a barbaric place filled with strong and tall men…and my Finnish friend says that Finnish men are totally pussified right now.[/quote]

About Finns- average height,but geneticaly strong people.Also majority are at least recreational athletes.Knifes? No way! They tend to get loud when drunk and thats it.

People to watch out for knifes are Morrocans,Algerians,but also quite suprisingly British.The percentage of British people I met with knife scars is quite high.Slashed,stabbed.

391

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
Dr.Matt I am sorry to hear about your hardship as a kid under totalitarian socialism, but as an socialist I feel it is my duty to create some balance here. I am shure you know that there are other forms of socialism than the totalitarian one that you experienced and that the socialist movement originally where not anti-democratic nor elitist. As some examples I can name the Paris commune of 1872, or the anarcho-socialist colletives in spain during the spanish civil war or the socialist labour movement in europeen countrys who have been standing on the baricades for over a century fighting for the rights of workers and other second class citizenry and winning some of those fights. Just adding that to the big picture.

Feel free to flame, but I want give a shit. [/quote]

I won’t flame you for being a socialist, but keep in mind that the Soviet Union did not start out as a totalitarian state either, nor did many other socialist or communist countries that became totalitarian regimes. I don’t even need to do an in depth analysis of why communism and socialism do not work on a large scale. All one has to do is look at all the socialist and communist countries that do and have existed to see how much worse life has been for the majority of citizens and how corrupt the governments became to see that communism and socialism do not work on a large scale. Small communities may have a better go at it, I don’t know. The stories I have told of my life in the Soviet Union are not out of the ordinary, the majority of Soviet citizens lived like this and so have many other people in other communist and socialist countries.
[/quote]

I dont have much time know, but I can I touch on some of what you wrote in your response to me. When it comes to that soviet russia and other totalitarian socialist regimes are a proof that socialism can never work, I find that a bit simplistic and a bit unscientific. One should atleast look at the historical context the soviet union was born out of before one are to just say it was the fault of socialism. The fact is that Russia where a pre-industrial country for the most part back in 1917 and without much democratic traditions. Basickly the bolshevics skipped the part in the marxist doctrine where it says that socialism are only possible in a society with a highly developed industry and with democratic traditions. Thats one possible reason why it failed. Also I must add that Lenins idea of an revolutionary elite is a dangerous one and is also a possible explanation why the russian experiment did end as the dictarurship of the party rather than the dictaturship of the proletariat. I wish the workers counsils power hadnt been sucked up by the party elite, but thats how power works perhaps ot perhaps the civil war somewhat created an enviroment where a all-powerfull party dictaturship could rise from.

Thats all the time I have now, but I will respond more tomorrow.

btw: I am not looking for an argument, but rather a good discussion about this and I wasnt afraid that you would flame me btw. I am expecting that from others.

I can finish up this with a paraphrase of Bakunin who where an anarcho-socialist:

“Socialism without freedom is brutality and slavery, and freedom wihtout socialism is privileges and injustice”

[/quote]

If you want to discuss this, I am willing to do so but start a thread in PWI. This thread is about stories of growing up in the Soviet Union, and other communist and socialist countries, not a political debate about socialism or communism, which is why I started it in GAL.
[/quote]

Okay I understand, we can rather do this later in PWI.

392

[quote]guhkes wrote:
I get you florelius. You’re from Norway and you want to say that not all socialism is bad. All the Scandinavian countries are good example of it. Most of them rank among the best countries in the world according many different kind of studies. So I agree with you.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic-of-the-worlds-best-countries.html

PS. I like you Norwegians just because of the fact that we have a common foe, the Sweden ;P[/quote]

Well we have oil to so socialism cant take all the credit LOL, but yes the scandinavian model shows that public ownership and control over institutions does work and that it doesnt lead to tyranny. On the other side the scandinavian countrys arent pure socialist countrys, but could better be described as democratic countrys with mixed economys, Kinda like capitalism with a twist of socialism :wink:

ps. Norwegians and Swedes are not foes, we call the swedes “soeta bror”( it means sweet brother in swedish ). Then again you where probably joking haha.

Btw: Where are you from?

393

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]guhkes wrote:
I get you florelius. You’re from Norway and you want to say that not all socialism is bad. All the Scandinavian countries are good example of it. Most of them rank among the best countries in the world according many different kind of studies. So I agree with you.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic-of-the-worlds-best-countries.html

PS. I like you Norwegians just because of the fact that we have a common foe, the Sweden ;P[/quote]

Well we have oil to so socialism cant take all the credit LOL, but yes the scandinavian model shows that public ownership and control over institutions does work and that it doesnt lead to tyranny. On the other side the scandinavian countrys arent pure socialist countrys, but could better be described as democratic countrys with mixed economys, Kinda like capitalism with a twist of socialism :wink:

ps. Norwegians and Swedes are not foes, we call the swedes “soeta bror”( it means sweet brother in swedish ). Then again you where probably joking haha.

Btw: Where are you from?

[/quote]

From which area are you from? I really haven’t seen positive talks about the Swedes from any Norwegian I know, including my mother.

394

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]guhkes wrote:
I get you florelius. You’re from Norway and you want to say that not all socialism is bad. All the Scandinavian countries are good example of it. Most of them rank among the best countries in the world according many different kind of studies. So I agree with you.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic-of-the-worlds-best-countries.html

PS. I like you Norwegians just because of the fact that we have a common foe, the Sweden ;P[/quote]

Well we have oil to so socialism cant take all the credit LOL, but yes the scandinavian model shows that public ownership and control over institutions does work and that it doesnt lead to tyranny. On the other side the scandinavian countrys arent pure socialist countrys, but could better be described as democratic countrys with mixed economys, Kinda like capitalism with a twist of socialism :wink:

ps. Norwegians and Swedes are not foes, we call the swedes “soeta bror”( it means sweet brother in swedish ). Then again you where probably joking haha.

Btw: Where are you from?

[/quote]

From which area are you from? I really haven’t seen positive talks about the Swedes from any Norwegian I know, including my mother.[/quote]

I am originally from a small commune just outside of Oslo, but I live in Bergen at the moment. There is something called swedish-jokes in Norway, but there are similar types of jokes in sweden about norwegians. My fathers family has swedish heritage and my name is swedish so cant really hate swedes lol.

An example of a swedish-joke: How do you sink a swedish submarine? You knock on the door!
( ba-tish )

Another one: How do you get a swede down from the top of a flag pole? You wave at him!
( ba-tish )

395

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]guhkes wrote:
I get you florelius. You’re from Norway and you want to say that not all socialism is bad. All the Scandinavian countries are good example of it. Most of them rank among the best countries in the world according many different kind of studies. So I agree with you.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic-of-the-worlds-best-countries.html

PS. I like you Norwegians just because of the fact that we have a common foe, the Sweden ;P[/quote]

Well we have oil to so socialism cant take all the credit LOL, but yes the scandinavian model shows that public ownership and control over institutions does work and that it doesnt lead to tyranny. On the other side the scandinavian countrys arent pure socialist countrys, but could better be described as democratic countrys with mixed economys, Kinda like capitalism with a twist of socialism ;)[/quote]

I agree with you, because I know all of this. It’s the more capitalistic countries, that fear socialism or it’s reputation so much, that they don’t even want to see the benefits of it.

Sweet brother? Sounds very gay, but then again, quite many of them are. And yes I’m joking.

Finland.

397

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Way to go, guys.[/quote]

You just had to pick a picture of a Canadian derailment didn’t you dude lol.

399

Fuck, I think all this stuff is interesting.

The thing about the former Soviet Union in comparison to where I grew up (northern mid-west) isn’t climate, but instead the complete intrusion of the goverment.

To read from Matt that meat was a rare find and the living situations fairly bleak in comparison to American Standards is fascinating.

I keep thinking of that scene in “The Good Shepherd” where the Soviet informant professes “Soviet power is a myth. Great show. There are no spare parts. Nothing is working, nothing, it’s nothing but painted rust. But you, you need to keep the Russian myth alive to maintain your military industrial complex. Your system depends on Russian being perceived as a mortal threat. It’s not a threat. It was never a threat. It will never be a threat. It’s a rotted, bloated cow.”

and I think of growing up doing nuclear attack drills in school and absolutely HATING the Soviet Union during the Olympics, thinking they were wimps for not showing up in the '84 games in Los Angeles and my devout Lutheran relatives speculating on an attack from the USSR after the games and watching the movie “Red Dawn” and going up into the silo on our farm finding lines of sight and fields of fire should the enemy ever breach the state of Michigan in similar fashion…

It was all for naught, none of it was necessary at all.

Crazy.

400

I’m curious Matt, even though it was before your time did anyone one you know give a shit about any of the Canada vs C.C.C.P. summit hockey series?

It’s like gospel here in Canada, literally our finest achievment in sports to this point, my generation believes anyways. Henderson who scored the winning goal is considered a God. They stopped classes all across the country to watch the games.

I was still very young at the time and all I cared about was the hockey aspect of it and getting out of class lol. The political angle was no doubt in high gear in the press here. Clean, nice and polite Canada vs big bad communist Russia etc.