I'm a Liberal

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

This is the most amazing thread I have ever read in this forum! Great post Turbot!

What is most amazing is that when we all lay out our beliefs and desires for what we want for America and the world, we all actually do have a common ground. We all have common goals, just different methods for trying to achieve them. But it is refreshing to read from people with whom I’ve been in bitter political conflicts that we actually share the same values.

My own beliefs?

I am a progressive conservative. I am a very ambitious business owner so I am very much in favor of laws that are fiscally responsible. I don’t like to pay taxes, but I understand their necessity. I don’t like the way that small business owners are overly burdened with taxes while huge companies are given tax breaks or being given billions in corporate welfare.

Socially?

I am against the death penalty. I think that violent people should be locked up for the rest of their lives, but we should not participate in their deaths.

Along the same line of thinking, I am marginally pro-life. What I mean by that is that I have issues with when the fetus is considered a life. I believe it is much sooner than 3 months. I don’t have a problem with morning after pills or early abortions, but once that fetus has a beating heart (around 4-6 weeks? Medical pros please chime in) it is a human and deserves a chance, and the parents have an responsibility to provide that.

Both of these views are probably the result of being a parent of three beautiful children. I understand the other side of the argument all too well. There are a lot of unwanted children. In the past I used to be in favor of mandatory abortions in some cases, but I have changed my views as I came to realize that human life is the most precious thing in our existence.

I want our nation to be safe, and I want to have a strong military. I also believe that we need to have a president who is a great diplomat and who possesses a much higher level of intelligence than the average citizen, and I don’t believe that our current option has that.

I don’t have a problem with regulations that protect our environment because I believe that businesses have a responsibility to operate in a way that does not pollute. Some do it voluntarily, some don’t. The government regulations are only a problem for the ones that don’t.

Not to completely contradict myself, but I do believe in a smaller, more efficient government that stays out of the private sector.

I am strongly opposed to any hint of religion in government, and it seems to be more then norm these days, on both sides. This disturbs me. I don’t have a problem in the slightest with religious faith, but government should remain secular at all costs.

With some minor differences I would probably be conservative, but I butt heads with most conservatives over religion. On abortion issues I think that religion hurts the pro-lifers’ case against it. They need to support their claims without getting passionate about the Bible in their arguments, and make it strictly a constitutional issue.

Guns? I used to be a gun owner and member of the NRA. I got sick of their propaganda and eventually gave up any support of them. After having children I got rid of all my guns to remove any possibility of a gun accident taking place in my household. In retrospect, I don’t really think I needed any of them. It will take some draconian measures to ban them though, so I don’t know how to handle that situation. I’m not really passionate about it either way.

Well, I could go on and on but I will spare all of you my ramblings. Turbot, thanks again for helping us all recognize our common goals. BTW, what do you do for a living?

22

Lots of great posts so far!

Thanks guys.

A few words on taxes:

No, I don’t feel guilty for having money. Not in the least. I like money. It’s fun.

However, as I my bank account grew, so did my sense of social responsibility.

Consider this statement from Bill Moyers, former press secretary for LBJ, from a speech this past June:

On March 10 of this year, on page B8, with a headline that stretched across all six columns, The New York Times reported that tuition in the city’s elite private schools would hit $26,000 for the coming school year – for kindergarten as well as high school. On the same page, under a two-column headline, Michael Wineraub wrote about a school in nearby Mount Vernon, the first stop out of the Bronx, with a student body that is 97 percent black. It is the poorest school in the town: nine out of ten children qualify for free lunches; one out of 10 lives in a homeless shelter. During black history month this past February, a sixth grader wanted to write a report on Langston Hughes. There were no books on Langston Hughes in the library – no books about the great poet, nor any of his poems. There is only one book in the library on Frederick Douglass. None on Rosa Parks, Josephine Baker, Leontyne Price, or other giants like them in the modern era. In fact, except for a few Newberry Award books the librarian bought with her own money, the library is mostly old books – largely from the 1950s and 60s when the school was all white. A 1960 child’s primer on work begins with a youngster learning how to be a telegraph delivery boy. All the workers in the book – the dry cleaner, the deliveryman, the cleaning lady – are white. There’s a 1967 book about telephones which says: “when you phone you usually dial the number. But on some new phones you can push buttons.” The newest encyclopedia dates from l991, with two volumes – “b” and “r” – missing. There is no card catalog in the library – no index cards or computer."

Contrast that with the fact that this past May, the House of Representatives gave tax cuts for couples with children who make up to $309,000 a year.

Something is really wrong here.

While you may not care about children in rotten school districts, where do you think these kids are going to be in 15 years? Yep, probably in prison, soaking up tax dollars.

It seems like a case of “pay me now, or pay me later.”

Oh, and to Roy who wanted to know what I do for a living, I invest or have invested in business around the country. Also did real well in the stock market in the late 90’s.

23

Mage:

That’s incorrect. You ever heard of the term, “Tax and Spend Liberal?”

In GENERAL, liberals tend to want a large government, lots of regulation, lots of taxes, etc.

Not saying this is what I believe, but how can we argue about liberal this and consevative that when half the people on this forum don’t know what means what?

24

Ooop! Forgot to add some stuff.

Somebody mentioned that liberals don’t like Christians. That kind of freaks me out.

If it seems that way, I gotta’ think it’s because most liberals don’t generally care for fundamentalist Christians. You know, the kind who think everyone who belongs to a different faith is going to hell; or that gays are evil (and also going to hell), etc.

When you look back through history, much of the shit the world has gone through can be traced back to fundamentalism of one kind or another.

If anything, liberals think Jesus is pretty cool. Consider though, that Jesus, were he to walk into some fundamentalist churches in disguise and start spouting his beliefs, would probably get run out of town!

Also, I’ve got another question. I have no real problem with the traditional Republican platform. However, it seems to be that the current admin deviates quite a bit from that platform.

The current admin is expanding the size of the government and given the growing deficit, it’d be hard to call them fiscally responsible.

Consider that if Nixon were in office today, he’d be considered a liberal!

Any ideas or comments about that?

Thanks!

25

Damn! Forgot some more stuff.

Abortion.

Hold onto your hats, but I think abortion is oftentimes murder, too.

HOWEVER, I don’t want laws regulating it (hey, a liberal not wanting more laws, imagine that!).

I think there are circumstances that warrant it. I do not take it lightly, nor do most liberals.

I do intensely dislike a lot of militant right-to-lifers, though. Neither they nor I know when life begins. Does a blastula have consciousness? I doubt it.

I also hate their holier than thou attitude. I firmly believe that most right to choose people would be far more receptive to their arguments if pro-lifers argued on the basis of compassion instead of using violence and shock tactics.

26

Turbo,

I think you’re an ok guy. I’m not a liberal and more on the traditional side of things, but I like the tone of your conversations. You’re not the typical liberal or ultra-conservative basher!. I don’t support abortion, but do not want to take it away. It’s up to them if they want to make the decision. Abortion is not a good thing. It really hurts most women in a way they cannot really recover from. “Jane Roe” says it’s ruined her life. Again, it’s up to them to make that decision.

I think some people use it as birth control which is completely stupid. I 100% do not support partial birth abortions. I have no clue how someone can stab a baby in the head and suck the brains out of it. That just sickens me. I do believe that should be regulated.

I do not support the ACLU. After they supported NAMBLA I have absolutely no respect for the organization anymore. They made a conscience decision to support a group whose sole purpose is to teach grown men how to rape boys and get away with it. I also think that the ACLU is one some type of crusade to remove Christianity from the public eye. They’ve really pissed people like me off who used to think they were a good organization with good intentions.

27

OK, Turbot, this is interesting.

I basically could have written your response for you in regards to the guilt and taxation thing. In fact, I feel like I am across the street eating brie and discussing Chardonnay.

Please qualify for me your sense of social responsibility as I see it as a pretty interesting and relevant part of the discussion of liberalism versus conservatism.

Thanks.

28

[quote]erp7e wrote:
Mage:

That’s incorrect. You ever heard of the term, “Tax and Spend Liberal?”

In GENERAL, liberals tend to want a large government, lots of regulation, lots of taxes, etc.

Not saying this is what I believe, but how can we argue about liberal this and consevative that when half the people on this forum don’t know what means what?
[/quote]

Hey erp. (Excuse me.)

Isn’t that what I said?

29

Hey Roy

[quote]Roy Batty wrote:

I am a progressive conservative?[/quote]

Really? I thought you were a liberal. I know you voted for Bush in the last election, but I thought you always voted democratic before that.

I thought corporate welfare was just another term for tax cuts. Big businesses will always get favorable treatment because of all the jobs they create, plus the political and financial power to get what they want. It matters not who is in power.

Also when you can afford the best tax specialists, it is easier to find those loopholes.

I am against the death penalty. I think that violent people should be locked up for the rest of their lives, but we should not participate in their deaths. [/quote]

The whole system should be (carefully) restructured. Violent criminals should not be placed with non-violent criminals. We need to get back into leaning how to rehabilitate people, but still have an actual punishment.

I also would prefer no death penalty. I actually believe it is too easy. I personally would prefer death to over 10 years in prison. [quote]

Along the same line of thinking, I am marginally pro-life. What I mean by that is that I have issues with when the fetus is considered a life. I believe it is much sooner than 3 months. I don’t have a problem with morning after pills or early abortions, but once that fetus has a beating heart (around 4-6 weeks? Medical pros please chime in) it is a human and deserves a chance, and the parents have an responsibility to provide that. [/quote]

Oh boy, a non-polarizing issue. Heh, heh.

I am influenced by the nervous system developing after 14 days, and the brain giving off brainwaves after 30. Most abortions are performed after 6 weeks, mostly because it takes about a month before the period is missed and the pregnancy is discovered.

Personally I think that the choice is made at the time of the act. All forms of protection could have been used. If you decide not to use any, you already made your choice. [quote]

Both of these views are probably the result of being a parent of three beautiful children. I understand the other side of the argument all too well. There are a lot of unwanted children. In the past I used to be in favor of mandatory abortions in some cases, but I have changed my views as I came to realize that human life is the most precious thing in our existence.

I want our nation to be safe, and I want to have a strong military. I also believe that we need to have a president who is a great diplomat and who possesses a much higher level of intelligence than the average citizen, and I don’t believe that our current option has that. [/quote]

Ah, how do you know? Anybody who becomes a nominee for president has to have a decent intelligence. It is not random luck, nor is it others pulling strings behind the scenes. Nobody without some intelligence could pull it off. One debate and they would crash. [quote]

I don’t have a problem with regulations that protect our environment because I believe that businesses have a responsibility to operate in a way that does not pollute. Some do it voluntarily, some don’t. The government regulations are only a problem for the ones that don’t. [/quote]

I support INTELLIGENT environmental laws. They have to be seriously thought out, and eased in, so as not to destroy business in the process. The government could pass laws making cars have a minimum 75 MPG, but you can guess what would happen then.

Certain things are actually best done by the consumer also. If the government wants better gas mileage, the businesses would fight it. But if the consumer demands it, they will comply.

But regardless, you should not have environmental rules like some gyms have stupid lifting rules. (i.e. no deadlifts allowed.) [quote]

Not to completely contradict myself, but I do believe in a smaller, more efficient government that stays out of the private sector. [/quote]

Ah yes. This is the big issue. [quote]

I am strongly opposed to any hint of religion in government, and it seems to be more then norm these days, on both sides. This disturbs me. I don’t have a problem in the slightest with religious faith, but government should remain secular at all costs. [/quote]

All costs? I can think of some pretty nasty costs.

You know I am an atheist, but I don’t have this irrational fear of religion as so many do. To me this is just another form of prejudice. You are not saying that only atheists should be allowed in politics are you?

I just don’t see this religious take over of politics. In fact I actually see the opposite, where anything remotely associated to religion is to be eliminated from life at “all costs”. And this is a dangerous erosion of our rights. Just like you do not want religion pushed on you, you should not need to take it away from those who do want it.

I have no problem with a politician stating their religious beliefs, and how it influences their political positions. But that is different then putting specific theology into law.

Speaking of which, I just heard a person on a news show that tried to track down the Bush quote of God telling him to go to war. Though he did say that Bush decided to run for President during a church sermon, and partly because of the sermon. [quote]

With some minor differences I would probably be conservative, [/quote] (Wait, didn’t you already say you were above?) [quote]… but I butt heads with most conservatives over religion. On abortion issues I think that religion hurts the pro-lifers’ case against it. They need to support their claims without getting passionate about the Bible in their arguments, and make it strictly a constitutional issue.

Guns? I used to be a gun owner and member of the NRA. I got sick of their propaganda and eventually gave up any support of them. After having children I got rid of all my guns to remove any possibility of a gun accident taking place in my household. In retrospect, I don’t really think I needed any of them. It will take some draconian measures to ban them though, so I don’t know how to handle that situation. I’m not really passionate about it either way. [/quote]

I used to be for gun control years ago, but began to realize that you cannot blame guns for the actions of people. Also there is too much data showing that guns ownership actually does deter crime, and gun control actually causes crime to increase.

But if you own a gun, you should learn how to keep it safe. But it should be noted that in 2001 there were 1,433 deaths do to a firearm in the 0-17 range. While even one is too many, we have to compare that to 1,105 from drowning, and 4,930 from motor vehicles the same year.

I don’t see anybody trying to ban cars, even though they result in 344% as many deaths.

Oh yeah, I got the info from here:

Check out how you can customize any death search. (Fun for everybody.)

1,707 people aged 19 to 27 died by unintentional poisoning in 2001.

–Somewhat cryptic message?

Roy, I will be back, but not to the same place.

30

Oops erp, I see where I made my mistake. I did slip up and get the terms mixed up.

Now I am confused as to what happened to that post. Only part of it is there. I quoted a previous post in it.

31

I basically could have written your response for you in regards to the guilt and taxation thing. In fact, I feel like I am across the street eating brie and discussing Chardonnay.

APSearch, I was hoping that everyone could participate in this thread in the spirit in which it was intended. In other words, I was hoping to avoid sarcasm.

32

No sarcasm intended. It was an honest statement with a sincere question.

It’s your thread. This is kind of a new spin but feel free to police it as you see fit.

I’ll take that to indicate you don’t care to answer my question.

Fair enough.