[quote]JD430 wrote:
I couldnt be bothered to waste my time arguing with any defender of communism. Any thinking man in 2007 realizes what a failed idea it is, complete with mountains
of real world proof.
Now I am going to start a thread about the world being flat…[/quote]
It boggles the mind.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
oh, and let us not forget the U.S.’ most memorable example of capitalism: slavery.
The capitalist portion of the USA eliminated slavery, an institution of the ‘aristocratic’ agrarian South.
[/quote]
Slavery was pretty close to communal living.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pat36 wrote:
My family is from Cuba, asshole. They didn’t leave it, they escaped from it. Not only was everything taken from my family in Cuba, but they were also persecuted for being Catholics. I never met my grand parents because of your friend Castro. I could never go. They are dead now and the rest of my family escaped just recently.
Your complaints are valid and understood but what does it have to do with communism? Again, Castro and the government he represents is fascist. What else do you expect from dictatorial regimes? Castro is no more a communist than Lenin or Stalin was. We judge people by thier actions not by the titles they give themselves.[/quote]
There is no such thing as communism and there never will be according to the definition you want to use.
When communal living occurs in reality on any sort of scale it is always forced.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
oh, and let us not forget the U.S.’ most memorable example of capitalism: slavery.
The capitalist portion of the USA eliminated slavery, an institution of the ‘aristocratic’ agrarian South.
Ummmm, no. Capitalists had nothing to do with it. The northern states couldn’t compete with free labor. Believe me, if more African slaves had landed in Boston instead of New Orleans and the port of Charleston slavery wouldn’t have ended so soon.[/quote]
Slaves were held in the North for decades if not longer.
The slavery schism had nothing to do with the North being unable to compete with free labor. The North and South were economically completey different.
Not too much cotton being grown north of the Mason Dixon line and little manufacturing to the south.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
as to your question “why do people leave cuba?” it is for the same reason that people leave mexico and all other poor latin american countries. it is for that reason, because they are poor and they are poor because of U.S. foreign economic policy.
as to your claim that most opponents of chavez dont live very long, it is incorrect. on of the leaders of the coup’ attempt in 2002 (backed by the CIA) still lives in venezuela with the consent of the chavez government. others involved in the coup’ have been provided exile in the U.S. chavez has the support of the people and the people were the main reason why the coup’ was unsuccesful. venezuela has a presidential recall referendum which can be enacted at any time provided that enough signatures are acquired. the chavez opposition was able to call such a referendum (the opposition which receives millions of dollars from the U.S. illegally). when the time to vote came the people voted in favor of chavez staying in power by a margin of almost 2 to 1. chavez has given the control of venezuelan oil back to venezuela where it belongs. he made U.S. corporations pay taxes (which they were supposed to be paying all along but didnt)and with the increased revenue he raised the minimum wage. he has dramatically decreased illiteracy, he has improved education and he is incouraging participative democracy.
Along with your inability to Capitalize at the beginning of a sentence you just believe everything you?re fed by the propaganda machines of those countries.
I know families who until recently lived in Venezuela. One guy who was kind enough to tour me around Caracas a few years ago, left because he was being threatened and harassed by police. His best friend was abducted the next day and never heard from again. They were vocally opposed to Chavez. This guy lives in Texas now.
My family is from Cuba, asshole. They didn’t leave it, they escaped from it. Not only was everything taken from my family in Cuba, but they were also persecuted for being Catholics. I never met my grand parents because of your friend Castro. I could never go. They are dead now and the rest of my family escaped just recently.
You sir, are an idiot. There is nothing nice or legitemet about these regimes.
[/quote]
chavez has the support of the people(the majority, as evidenced by the numerous elections chavez has undergone), that is unquestionable. the people who oppose him are the wealthy elite. although i am curious to know about your friends situation, their background how they were persecuted and how they vocally opposed chavez. i would also like to know what evidence you have that the chavez government had involvement in the disappearence.
also, i would like to know what excactly happened your family in cuba and why you couldn’t go there.
p.s. i don’t think my inability to capitalize neither adds or detracts from this discussion so i fail to understand why you bring it up.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
oh, and let us not forget the U.S.’ most memorable example of capitalism: slavery.
The capitalist portion of the USA eliminated slavery, an institution of the ‘aristocratic’ agrarian South.
Ummmm, no. Capitalists had nothing to do with it. The northern states couldn’t compete with free labor. Believe me, if more African slaves had landed in Boston instead of New Orleans and the port of Charleston slavery wouldn’t have ended so soon.
Slaves were held in the North for decades if not longer.
The slavery schism had nothing to do with the North being unable to compete with free labor. The North and South were economically completey different.
Not too much cotton being grown north of the Mason Dixon line and little manufacturing to the south.
[/quote]
Its all about textiles. Plenty of cotton flowed to the north to be loomed…is that what it’s called?..but they had to pay laborers to do it. The cost of what they paid for cotton was disporportionate to what it cost them to turn it into stuff and thus affected the price of what they could ask for the finished product. Yes, they were completely different economies that isn’t the argument. The north was facing the same issues we are facing today with exporting labor overseas. All of our raw materials get shipped overseas with the labor and it gets turned into stuff that we use without the hassle of having to support anything other than the farmer.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
oh, and let us not forget the U.S.’ most memorable example of capitalism: slavery.
The capitalist portion of the USA eliminated slavery, an institution of the ‘aristocratic’ agrarian South.
Slavery was pretty close to communal living.[/quote]
i’m not sure if you are being scarcastic but for the sake of argument i will take this literally. slavery was not close to communal government because the workers were owned and they did not own the means of production.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
oh, and let us not forget the U.S.’ most memorable example of capitalism: slavery.
The capitalist portion of the USA eliminated slavery, an institution of the ‘aristocratic’ agrarian South.
Slavery was pretty close to communal living.
[/quote]
Yes it was; however, very authoritarian and they didn’t reap any of the fruits of their own labor–thus not communistic. Also, they were owned so that whole thing about not having one entity owning the means of production also goes out the window. Communal living and communism related by their root are completely different. If they had been free and able to compete in agricultural markets they would have been a shining beacon of communism–as long as no one person or entity soley ownd the means of production–the land, for example.
EDIT–the whole point of that was to point out how slavery only benefited the individual and not the commune.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
oh, and let us not forget the U.S.’ most memorable example of capitalism: slavery.
The capitalist portion of the USA eliminated slavery, an institution of the ‘aristocratic’ agrarian South.
Slavery was pretty close to communal living.
i’m not sure if you are being scarcastic but for the sake of argument i will take this literally. slavery was not close to communal government because the workers were owned and they did not own the means of production.
[/quote]
Exactly how communism has been implemented worldwide!
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Exactly how communism has been implemented worldwide![/quote]
Now you are seeing the real issue. It’s not about whether communism works or whether it doesn’t work. It can never work when implemented by the sword. It is only thru democratic means that it can be established. Policy and economy go hand in hand. If you look at political issues as a “market” you can see this. Democracy is the market whereby policy issues are bought and sold–we call the market elections in this instance. The reason why “communism” failed in the past is because the established governments failed to reconcile their policy with their economy–this can only happen thru democratic means–especially in a communistic society where everone is suppoed to contribute to the whole.
Communism, in my lifetime, will never work, merely because I say so. Resistance is futile.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
chavez has the support of the people(the majority, as evidenced by the numerous elections chavez has undergone), that is unquestionable. the people who oppose him are the wealthy elite. although i am curious to know about your friends situation, their background how they were persecuted and how they vocally opposed chavez. i would also like to know what evidence you have that the chavez government had involvement in the disappearence.
also, i would like to know what excactly happened your family in cuba and why you couldn’t go there.
[/quote]
IT’s actually my friend’s cousin who moved to Texas; I met him in Caracas. As far as I know they took part in demonstrations. I believe his abducted friend worked for one of the oil companies. A lot of those people disappeared according to what I heard. Venezuela is awash in corruption. Of course Chavez won the elections. Here’s a prediction for you, he’ll win them for the rest of his life. He will not stop being “president” until he is dead. He used some 2 million illlegal Columbians in his country, made them citizens gave them handouts and made sure they voted for him. Also, people have been leaving in droves so by the time he closes the border there won’t be anything but his supporters left. He also had been awarded absolute power in Venezuela for 18 months. I am pretty sure that change is permanent too.
As for why my family could not go back to Cuba, that is not hard to figure out. They escaped, there are many Cubans, rotting in cuban prisons for trying to escape. You see, that is not allowed in Cuba. We probably could now that we are citizens and the rest of my family jumped ship. But I have no interest until I can urinate on Castro’s grave.
I suggest you guys visit some of these shitholes you’re defending.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Exactly how communism has been implemented worldwide!
Now you are seeing the real issue. It’s not about whether communism works or whether it doesn’t work. It can never work when implemented by the sword. It is only thru democratic means that it can be established. Policy and economy go hand in hand. If you look at political issues as a “market” you can see this. Democracy is the market whereby policy issues are bought and sold–we call the market elections in this instance. The reason why “communism” failed in the past is because the established governments failed to reconcile their policy with their economy–this can only happen thru democratic means–especially in a communistic society where everone is suppoed to contribute to the whole. [/quote]
That is what ever socialist leader has said. They were going to do it right this time.
Ever read Animal Farm? You should.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
It is only thru democratic means that it can be established.[/quote]
As SpongeBob would say “Well, good luck with that.”
I think the first thing a democratic communist population would do is vote back a capitalist party to power.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
IT’s actually my friend’s cousin who moved to Texas; I met him in Caracas. As far as I know they took part in demonstrations. I believe his abducted friend worked for one of the oil companies. A lot of those people disappeared according to what I heard. Venezuela is awash in corruption. Of course Chavez won the elections. Here’s a prediction for you, he’ll win them for the rest of his life. He will not stop being “president” until he is dead. He used some 2 million illlegal Columbians in his country, made them citizens gave them handouts and made sure they voted for him. Also, people have been leaving in droves so by the time he closes the border there won’t be anything but his supporters left. He also had been awarded absolute power in Venezuela for 18 months. I am pretty sure that change is permanent too.
As for why my family could not go back to Cuba, that is not hard to figure out. They escaped, there are many Cubans, rotting in cuban prisons for trying to escape. You see, that is not allowed in Cuba. We probably could now that we are citizens and the rest of my family jumped ship. But I have no interest until I can urinate on Castro’s grave.
I suggest you guys visit some of these shitholes you’re defending. [/quote]
the disappearence of your friend’s friend is tragic but you didn’t explain what evidence exists which points to the chzvez government.
i was aware of the decree that passed yesterday extending the power of chavez. i think it is important to look at what is happening at the bottom, meaning the common people of venezuela. they support chavez because his government benefits them(a system that benefits the majority, i think we would call that a democracy). please research all of the social projects that the government has institued (land, education,health, etc.).
also, could you please inform me on how your family was persecuted for being catholic and how the government took averything away from your family.
i think your sugestion of visiting these countries is a very good idea and hopefully one day i will get to do so.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Exactly how communism has been implemented worldwide!
Now you are seeing the real issue. It’s not about whether communism works or whether it doesn’t work. It can never work when implemented by the sword. It is only thru democratic means that it can be established. … [/quote]
It has to be implemented by the sword as long as some people don’t want it. It cannot work if it is voluntary, it must be mandatory.
[quote]pookie wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
It is only thru democratic means that it can be established.
As SpongeBob would say “Well, good luck with that.”
I think the first thing a democratic communist population would do is vote back a capitalist party to power.
[/quote]
this is a posibillity but the fact that a democratic communist population would get to actually decide its own future is a great accomplishment within itself. i am anti-capitalist mainly because of the undemocratic nature of capitalism.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
where is the work of this invisible hand when U.S. corporations go into foreign countries and pay slave wages. they prohibit workers unions and they do not follow envionmental laws and they dont pay taxes. when transnational corporations flood developing countries whith cheap products and they leave millions of people unemployed, where is the invisible hand then?
[/quote]
When corporations violate environmental laws they committ a crime. That is what justice systems are for. Happens in all systems and is not unique to free markets. In fact socialist countries REALLY fucked up their environments.
Look up “Bitterfeld”. It is a small East German town.
Are those corporations providing slave labor jobs or are they leaving unemployment behind?
Which one is it?
The truth is that globalizaion is helping millions of people escaping extreme poverty which existed before those countries adopted free market policies.
Like in the case of Manchester liberalism capitalism is plamed for the conditions that existed because of hundreds of years of feudalism and which capitalism eliminated in mere decades.
As to flooding “poor” markets with "cheap “products”…
Well that are the only kind of products those people can afford so thank God they get them instead of nothing.
[quote]
people are not what they are, people are influenced by their surroundings which is why you are the way you are. you believe in persuing self interests because that is the invironment that you live in. if society were taught to work for the good of the group then they would belive that ideology to be true just as you believe in belive in capitalism.[/quote]
Not so.
We are a species with psychologic adaptations that makes it able for us to live in a group.
It is basically a nurture vs nature argument , and your argument or point of view was the basis for re-educaion camps all over the world, which achieved very little.
The real problem is that our instincts of being altruistic, sharing, co-operative etc work very well in small groups (because they developed to work in small groups) and lead to disaster when applied to a society of millions because all the in-built checks and balances are gone.
Plus, capitalism is the most efficient way of working for the good of the group because the rising tide lifts all boats.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pat36 wrote:
My family is from Cuba, asshole. They didn’t leave it, they escaped from it. Not only was everything taken from my family in Cuba, but they were also persecuted for being Catholics. I never met my grand parents because of your friend Castro. I could never go. They are dead now and the rest of my family escaped just recently.
Your complaints are valid and understood but what does it have to do with communism? Again, Castro and the government he represents is fascist. What else do you expect from dictatorial regimes? Castro is no more a communist than Lenin or Stalin was. We judge people by thier actions not by the titles they give themselves.[/quote]
Well you really can`t comment on capitalism then, because there has never been a 100% capitalist society either.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Exactly how communism has been implemented worldwide!
Now you are seeing the real issue. It’s not about whether communism works or whether it doesn’t work. It can never work when implemented by the sword. It is only thru democratic means that it can be established. Policy and economy go hand in hand. If you look at political issues as a “market” you can see this. Democracy is the market whereby policy issues are bought and sold–we call the market elections in this instance. The reason why “communism” failed in the past is because the established governments failed to reconcile their policy with their economy–this can only happen thru democratic means–especially in a communistic society where everone is suppoed to contribute to the whole. [/quote]
To achieve Socialism through Democratic means…
http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html
I think Bastiat`s comments peak for themselves…
That would be nothing but a tyranny of the majority…
And it still does not change that you cannot efficiently work without private property…