If America Should Go Communist

[quote]pookie wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
IE: Don’t let anyone earn more than 10mil a year.

You’re saying that because you’re not even close to making 10 millions a year.

No matter where you set the bar, you end up with the same problem: the bar kills entrepreneurship and doesn’t reward people’s efforts.

Would you also prevent corporations from making more than 10 millions in profit each year? If not, people can pay themselves 10 millions in salary, but have their corporation buy them the jet, the boats, the mansions, etc. If you cap off corporate profit, you lose all the industry who need huge expenditure of capital to operate (ex: A chip fabrication plant for Intel or AMD costs in the billions to build.)

You can have progressive tax brackets, but completely capping off earning capacity is a recipe for disaster. If you do that, you better seal off your borders, because all the rich people will leave.
[/quote]

That’s happening in France, where they lose a millionaire a day. They have a tax that exceeds 100%. Thus, the rich are moving to the periphery.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
That’s happening in France, where they lose a millionaire a day. They have a tax that exceeds 100%. Thus, the rich are moving to the periphery.[/quote]

Yeah, that’s the funny thing about money you earn: You kinda feel like you earned it and should get to keep it.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

The one true best form of government is the truly enlightened despot. One with absolute power who can get things done, but truly cares about the people and understands perfectly how the people need to be helped.

Well, let me say this - I wish more left-of-center types were as candid and honest as you when it came to explaining what kind of government they think would be best.[/quote]

There is just that tiny, allmost insignificant problem that even an enlightened dictator cannot command an economy in a rational manner without market prizes, which in turn are not thinkable without private capital and risk taking…

I wish that more socialists and social democrats would get that their dream is an impossibilty…

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
pookie wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
IE: Don’t let anyone earn more than 10mil a year.

You’re saying that because you’re not even close to making 10 millions a year.

No matter where you set the bar, you end up with the same problem: the bar kills entrepreneurship and doesn’t reward people’s efforts.

Would you also prevent corporations from making more than 10 millions in profit each year? If not, people can pay themselves 10 millions in salary, but have their corporation buy them the jet, the boats, the mansions, etc. If you cap off corporate profit, you lose all the industry who need huge expenditure of capital to operate (ex: A chip fabrication plant for Intel or AMD costs in the billions to build.)

You can have progressive tax brackets, but completely capping off earning capacity is a recipe for disaster. If you do that, you better seal off your borders, because all the rich people will leave.

That’s happening in France, where they lose a millionaire a day. They have a tax that exceeds 100%. Thus, the rich are moving to the periphery.

[/quote]

Don`t worry about that, they have Monaco, and Andorra and Liechtenstein, and they have family trusts that can outlast a collapsing and/or hyperinflating $ , the breakdown of democratic socialism and everything else short of a nucear war…

I think it is comforting to know that enough money still can buy you freedom…

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong–I am not a political scientist (laugh) or economist but isn’t communism more a doctrine of Marxian economic principles where the government takes responsibility for its economic interests, not necessarily an authoritarian political structure? Aren’t some modern day social governments both democratic and a smidge communistic?

Couldn’t China, for example, if it shed it’s authoritarian style of government, be both democratic and communistic while also using capitalism in a state mandated way to grow economically–i.e., controlling its wealth and not allowing individuals to become wealthy?

Could you imagine a system where everyone got paid the same no matter what (except maybe based on some sort of rank and seniority to instill some sort of value in hard work and loyalty, etc., a la the military pay scale) and only saw a rise in pay based on its GDP/GNP? It would mean that the “people” would own the means of production out right because they ultimately are the labor force.

If China can’t figure it out no country can.[/quote]

Yea, thay would mean nobody would have the incentive to work or study hard. Real good idea. Lets pay Doctors the same a garbage men…Smart.

If you cap or punish the rich, they’ll just move out. Look at Venezuela, everybody with means is leaving before the barn door shuts. Communism or any type of communist philosophy will fail because it make everyone poor, except for the elites who run the show. It has failed where ever it has been tried. It was such a good system that they had to wall people in and shoot those who tried to escape. Even in the strictest communist countries you had rich and poor. The poor was everybody who was not a high lever government employee.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Yea, thay would mean nobody would have the incentive to work or study hard. Real good idea. Lets pay Doctors the same a garbage men…Smart.
[/quote]

The military pay scale would work too. Same principle. Doctors get paid the same as pilots.

I could live in a country that confiscated 100% of all profits and redistributed them to those who contributed to the “good” of society. This probably goes along with my deep rooted belief in the tyranny of property ownership. How does one own land?

How does one lose the incentive to work? Work or don’t get paid. I never mentioned a free ride, though, I do beleive in a gov’t that takes care of those “unable” to work, too.

I do agree with the naivety involved with communist doctrines; that being, people always want more than what they have. That’s true of the poor and the rich. Though not me.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The military pay scale would work too. Same principle. Doctors get paid the same as pilots.[/quote]

Only works if no other country offers better. Quebec has lost dozens, if not hundreds, of doctors to Ontario and New England. I can drive down to Plattsburgh and pay to get treatment. In French.

Why do I get the feeling that you make very little money? People on the receiving end of redistribution are, somehow, always hugely in favor of it.

What about the benefits of private property? Take, for example, a public restroom and a private one. Which one is generally cleaner? Which one would you rather go to, given the choice. When something belongs to everyone, then it belongs to no one and no one really cares for it.

If it’s private, then you can charge for it’s use and make a living from it. You then have plenty of incentive to make it’s usage more appealing than the free, public one next door.

Just work as little as you need to get your pay. Why try to outperform your other coworkers? You’ll be more tired at the end of the day and you’ll have no more money. You might even get to do some of their work, if they find a way to unload their share.

Welfare for the truly needy is something else altogether. I support that, but not in the form it has now.

No? Don’t you want more muscle? More strength? Even if you’re not tempted by material wealth and possessions, don’t you want good schools for your kids? You want to be able to give them opportunities? Help them follow their passions? A lot of that requires money. What if a member of your family is sick, and you wish to provide better care than what the government program calls for?

[quote]pookie wrote:
Only works if no other country offers better. Quebec has lost dozens, if not hundreds, of doctors to Ontario and New England. I can drive down to Plattsburgh and pay to get treatment. In French.
[/quote]

Pookie, first, I enjoy your post even when you are tearing my post a new one–I still love the debate, though.

I understand that this would not be very plausable given our society’s percieved rights to excess. We all want what our neighbor has and won’t stop until we have it too. I won’t get into what I beleive to be excess–nor will I ever agree that what I believe to be excessive is what others deem excessive.

Because I have stated numerous times that I am a junior professor of physics at a state run university. “Little” is relative term considering I make more than the mean income for middle America though I make less than my more senior colleagus–which is fine because there is something to be said for longevity and experience.

This is the flawed, regurgitated logic of capitalistic dogma and stinks of elitism. I wouldn’t know about private restrooms as the only private restroom I use is my own. As a rule public restrooms in this country are acceptably clean–compared to ones I’ve had to pay for in other countries. I don’t agree that private ownership makes it better. In fact I enjoy going to non-profit national parks. I enjoy the fact that the money I pay goes to it’s upkeep, etc., and not some fat-cat’s pension fund.

There is more to this life than making something bigger, better, faster for the purpose of making a profit.

This happens regardless of pay. There is no proof that getting paid more results in better products, though I like the elitest mentality of paying someone barely enough to live all while feeding their illusions whith the idea that if they work harder they might get promoted to head sweeper, etc. Again, this is capitalist propoganda that is totally unsupported.

Materalistically, no. I do not “want” more. It’s just stuff. It doesn’t make me a better person, it doesn’t make me more privileged, it doesn’t contribute to my overall sense of well being–in fact, stuff is just clutter and eventually ends up owning its owner. Not only this but the majority of material purchases are not made with actual money but with credit–a form of corporate slavery.

Serving in and growing up in the military and having had a mother with cancer I can relate to this. My parents gov’t insurance would only cover a certain percentage of her treatment and the rest had to come out of pocket. Regardless of what is covered under government programs paying for insurance is a reality. The irony is that this only happend when the military changed to a new HMO style medical program. I blame private HMOs more than anything–corporate machines out to cut costs and deny service to paying customers in the name of profit is the most evil thing I can conceive of.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Yea, thay would mean nobody would have the incentive to work or study hard. Real good idea. Lets pay Doctors the same a garbage men…Smart.

The military pay scale would work too. Same principle. Doctors get paid the same as pilots.

I could live in a country that confiscated 100% of all profits and redistributed them to those who contributed to the “good” of society. This probably goes along with my deep rooted belief in the tyranny of property ownership. How does one own land?

How does one lose the incentive to work? Work or don’t get paid. I never mentioned a free ride, though, I do beleive in a gov’t that takes care of those “unable” to work, too.

I do agree with the naivety involved with communist doctrines; that being, people always want more than what they have. That’s true of the poor and the rich. Though not me.
[/quote]

Well, you can watch the results of such ideas by keeping your eye on Venezuela. Chavez seems to share your ideals. You can watch them and see if the results are something that you like. I mean this from an academic point of view. They also have some of the best meat in the world and steriods are legal.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Pookie, first, I enjoy your post even when you are tearing my post a new one–I still love the debate, though.[/quote]

I’m enjoying it too. And what fun would it be if we were all on the same side, right?

I don’t think it’s a right to excess per se. It’s more than we have freedom to work and amass wealth, and what’s enough for one might be different for others. Many people are quite happy with a simple life and they exchange long work hours, stress and commuting for more peaceful time with family or other non-material compensations.

I have no problem with either approach, as long as everyone get to choose what he prefers and that one does not have to pay (other than his fair tax share) for the choices of the other.

I assume it’s cleaner than most public restrooms?

I have a flaw in my logic, but you get to compare US public bathrooms with “Pay to use” ones in other countries? Hmmm…

Were those “Pay-to-use” really private, or was it one more tariff the local government was imposing?

I don’t think we have “private” National Parks to compare with.

Agreed. Although making a profit doesn’t preclude you from partaking in life’s other pleasures.

Maybe in the public sector, but in the private sector, you can get paid more based on merit.

It might result in the same products, but at lesser cost. Working more, especially in the sense of working smart, vs. working harder, should yield benefits to productivity. So either you get a better product, more of the same product or reduced costs.

Some jobs simply don’t offer much chance for promotion. It’s simply a fact of life that anyone can push a broom around and replace the bags in the trash cans. If doing that is your life’s crowning achievement, you simply don’t deserve to get paid the same amount that a neurosurgeon does.

That also sounds like propaganda. Sounds good when Tyler Durden says it in Fight Club, but it’s not necessarily realistic.

On a more serious note, credit is a tool, and like other tools, it gets misused by some people. Should the corporations be responsible for helping their customers make and follow a budget?

That’s one of the reasons I think that publicly funded and accessible health care is a better solution than an entirely private solution. But for most other things in life, I find that the private sector tends to do it better than the private one does. I’ve worked in both, and I’m never going back to the public sector, unless I become senile and incompetent. Then the job security would be nice. :0)

[quote]pat36 wrote:
You know, this is getting me all emotional. Do you know how many people have died because of communism and communist governments? It’s in the millions, not hundreds, not thousands, but millions. Do you know how many people continue to suffer under communist dictatorships?
[/quote]

I think it has been posted on here before. communist governments killed somewhere north of 125 million of their own citizens from 1900-2000. You can probably search the forums for it.

Sign me right the fuck up for that, by the way!

[quote]pookie wrote:
I’m enjoying it too. And what fun would it be if we were all on the same side, right?
[/quote]
That is one thing I think everyone may agree on.

I agree to the extent that people do have this right under our current system…but I don’t view it as a “natural” right. There is no philosophical basis for granting people the right to property ownership. I kind of believe in a more Darwinian ideal that if you can defend it you can keep it. This probably comes from a historical as well as biological perspective.

Anything my wife cleans is cleaner than what one would find in public/private; whether my neighbor’s is cleaner than the Gas-n-go is debatable. Actually, I don’t think there are too many public bathrooms in the US–most afford public access but are privately owned, but I digress.

It was in a bar in Amsterdam which I am guessing was privately owned.

Whoa! This is my main argument agianst capitalistic elitism. What does it mean to deserve something? Is it the same thing as to earn? What makes the job a street sweeper does less “worthy” of equal pay than a neurosurgeon? Intelligence? The amount of school that had to be paid for? In a communist society this point would be groundless. In a society that tries to promote equality and also derives its citizens “worth” by their profession is pure elitism. A brain surgeon relies on the streetsweeper to do his job and vice-vere. We all rely on others doing their job for our quality of life. Ideally, we would all strive to do our utmost to contribute to society no matter our biological means if we beleived in the inherent goodness of our community. This is like the private in my squad when I was going thru cobat training who complained about having to carry the big gun during all the forced marches. We all had our assigned job and even though all of us didn’t carry the gun we all carried its ammo.

It is propaganda but no less true. Credit is a useful tool but is also used by companies to exploit poor, finacially uneducate people. I can’t count the number of times that I have seen someone getting counciled by a “finance” specialist trying to sell someone something they can’t afford on their own. Credit–gods way of punishing the mathematically challenged.

Agreed, I sometimes wonder what it would be like working in the private sector but then remind myself that the modern day university is turning into a corporate entity–all i have to do it look at all the competitive, back-stabbing, ladder-climbing, rat-race that has become public education to see that. Does this make the education provided here better? Depends.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
There is no philosophical basis for granting people the right to property ownership. I kind of believe in a more Darwinian ideal that if you can defend it you can keep it.[/quote]

Well I can defend it. If you come to occupy my yard, I call the cops and they haul you off.

Simply because we’ve agreed to respect laws and do things in a more civilized way, doesn’t mean that ownership is invalid.

Instead of each doing our own “defending,” we pay taxes and have local authorities do it for us.

Gas-n-go is not really public either. It’s just a badly maintained private bathroom, but then again Gas-n-go, regardless of their name, do not make money from their bathroom service, but from selling fuel.

Supply and demand. Why should I pay a street sweeper $100,000 a year when I can get someone who’ll do it for $15,000?

That in no way reflects on the person’s value as a human being, it only reflects fact that his skill are common and, thus, cheap to acquire.

A neurosurgeon might be the biggest asshole in town, but because only a handful of people have his skill, he gets a better pay.

You can always try to hire someone with no training off the street for $15,000 and let him play around in your brain, but I’m not sure you’ll like the results.

If so, why bother with the endless years of school and internship to become a neurosurgeon? Why deal with the stress of having a person’s life in your hands daily? Why bother with all that if you can just sweep the floor and bring home the same paycheck?

No one is saying that this or that job is useless or worthless. What I’m saying is that some skillsets are rare, or require a lot of work and effort to attain, while others are basically achievable by anyone who can stand up and hold a stick. It seems right to you to reward both skill sets equally? You think that will motivate people to better themselves?

LIFTICVS, meet Human Nature. Human Nature, LIFTICVS.

Maybe if we ever get a robotic society made up of machine, we can make your way work. Just from looking at our current welfare systems; or by visiting a government institution, I can tell you it doesn’t.

The solution is to improve education, not to get rid of credit.

Isn’t that the State Lottery? I’ve used credit plenty of times in my life, intelligently, or as least I like to think so, and it’s been quite useful.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Supply and demand. Why should I pay a street sweeper $100,000 a year when I can get someone who’ll do it for $15,000?
[/quote]
Again this is just a capitalistic argument that is baseless. This isn’t really a function of supply and demand but a function of a learned skill. If we had cheaper more accessible education we would have more surgeons. I doubt there are more brains that need surgury than streets that need sweeping.

Again, cheaper, more accessible education would resolve this.

I actually dabble in brain surgury in my free time–I’m real cheap–in fact I’ll do it for free or a dozen freshly baked cookies. There is no real objective in brain surgury–I just like the way brains look when you poke them with a rusty butter knife.

Idealism. Becasue I derive happiness from being useful and the best I can be. Same reason I lift heavy weights.

No. This isn’t what I am saying at all. I believe in a capitalist society the end result is to always gain the most monetary value. This is often done by keeping resources unavailable so as to drive out competition thereby creating an imaginary demand which reates inflated costs. As humans we are territorial and have a natural tendency to defend what we think is inherently ours. This is the biggest flaw with cpaitalism–otherwise why go into business at all if not to be the biggest and richest. Do people participate in competitive sports activites just for the fun of it?

I am not saying everyone is capable of doing the same job and therefore should get paid the same.

I never said my ideas were realistic…but I do dream. All big, crazy ideas start out as dreams. Some ideas come to fruition and are actualized, some don’t.

Agreed. Education and punishing those companies that exploit their customers weaknesses are needed. I beleive in a two-pronged approach.

It belongs to both–but the lottery is more biased to statistics. I have also availed myself of credit–its the only way for poor people to make most large purchases–but I haven’t had a credit card with more than 0% interest with greater than a 0 balance since I was an undergrad.

Pookie,

The more I read of your posts, the more I think that you are actually a conservative (and an intelligent one at that) at heart. You support capitalism with a moderate safety net and taxes.

A very enjoyable read and a good debate, gentlemen.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Again this is just a capitalistic argument that is baseless. This isn’t really a function of supply and demand but a function of a learned skill. If we had cheaper more accessible education we would have more surgeons. I doubt there are more brains that need surgury than streets that need sweeping.[/quote]

Actually, with the little tractors they use nowadays, a street sweeper can cover a lot of street in one day.

What about talent? Let’s say all car mechanics are paid the same; but one in particular is “better” at properly fixing cars. Once the word goes around, people will want to deal with that car mechanic, if they can. They might even bring him gifts or outright bribes. The talented car mechanic then gets “paid” more for doing the same job, simply because he’s better at it. Will you suffer through endless visits to a lousy mechanic just because “it’s fair?”

And don’t give me the education argument here. No matter the amount of education, some people are just better at some things than others are. Now amount of hockey lessons are going to transform a competent hockey player into Wayne Gretzky.

I don’t know how it is in the state, but here you can go all the way to college with very little in the way of personal out-of-pocket. Yet, a lot of people do not avail themselves of the possibility. They drop out, for various reason, during or just after high school. Yet they should be paid the same amount as someone who goes the extra mile and gets another 5-10 years of schooling? Why waste 10 years of salary if you can start getting paid $100,000 at 12? By the time the neurosurgeon start to practice, in his mid-thirties, I already have 25 years of salary accumulated.

If that how you came up with all your arguments? My advice: use a rusty spoon.

I prefer realism.

Money is the way we measure productivity. Making more money than a competitor means that you’re better at doing whatever it is you’re doing than he is. More productive = more products, or same amount of products at reduced costs.

Often done? I don’t think so. It does happen in some particular sector when the only players are gigantic corporations, but most enterprises in a modern capitalist society do not wield that much power.

And, as with credit, the solution is not to scrap capitalism in it’s entirety, but to try and correct the “wrongs” through market regulation or various laws. This should be done carefully, and as little as possible.

There’s only one biggest and richest. People often go in business when they discover that they can make a good living from something they love doing.

That’s another problem I see with your communist society: Why would someone take the risks inherent in starting a new business if he’s not going to get any more out of it? Why deal with the stress, the long hours, the financially difficult first years and the possibility of bankruptcy if at the end you simply keep on making what you where already making previously?

I certainly hope so. You’ve never played sports with friends just for the fun of it?

What are you saying then? I’m under the impression that you think both our street sweeper and our neurosurgeon should be equally rewarded.

If there not realistic, it’ll be hard to “realize” them, though.

Instead of “punishing” the companies, simply make sure the laws in place protect the customer. We have laws that set a maximum interest rate and you prosecute anyone who goes over for shylocking… Make your laws as just and fair as possible and then punish those who don’t respect them.

Don’t simply punish law-abiding companies because you don’t like their ethics. The customer shares his part of the blame.

See? Use correctly, credit is quite useful. If you punish credit companies for lending to poor people, they might cut off all credit. Those poor people will then have no way at all to make those large purchases, other than turning to actual loan sharks or other unsavory lenders.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The more I read of your posts, the more I think that you are actually a conservative (and an intelligent one at that) at heart. You support capitalism with a moderate safety net and taxes.[/quote]

You might be right. I think ideas from both sides of the left/right spectrum have merit.

I think people should be allowed to keep as much of the money they work for as possible, and that we should have the least amount of government necessary. On a few issues, particularly education and health care, I think everyone should be able to receive as much of it as they want or need, regardless of their ability to pay for it. A healthy, well-educated population is the best bet for a prosperous society.

On war, I think we should avoid it at all cost. We should exhaust all other alternatives (within reason, of course) before resorting to it. If we do decide to go to war, I think we should pull no punches in making the enemy regret his decision of engaging us.

When I post here, I’ve mostly been labeled a liberal (I think you’re the first one to call me conservative), but when I post on French political forums in Quebec, I’m called everything from a conservative, to a right-wing extremist to a fascist.

As you’d say, it’s fascinating.

This may be veering the conversation off topic, but in reading Common Sense by Paine, one passage always bugs me:

On Monarchy and Hereditary Succession:

[i]For all men being originally equals, no one by birth could have a right to set up his own family in perpetual preference to all others for ever, and though himself might deserve some decent degree of honors of his contemporaries, yet his descendants might be far too unworthy to inherit them. One of the strongest natural proofs of the folly of hereditary right in kings, is, that nature disapproves it, otherwise, she would not so frequently turn it into ridicule by giving mankind an ass for a lion.

Secondly, as no man at first could possess any other public honors than were bestowed upon him, so the givers of those honors could have no power to give away the right of posterity, and though they might say “We choose you for our head,” they could not, without manifest injustice to their children, say “that your children and your children’s children shall reign over ours for ever.” Because such an unwise, unjust, unnatural compact might (perhaps) in the next succession put them under the government of a rogue or a fool. Most wise men, in their private sentiments, have ever treated hereditary right with contempt; yet it is one of those evils, which when once established is not easily removed; many submit from fear, others from superstition, and the more powerful part shares with the king the plunder of the rest.[/i]

I agree with men being able to amass as much wealth as they want, but I agree with Paine in that no man should be able to establish his family’s wealth in perpetuity. I also believe that a man’s wealth, no matter how much he accumulates isn’t entirely his and the money, by all rights, does belong to the government (even in the most capitalists of states). As such, I favor a death tax, even a very hefty one. Since corporations are somewhat indistinguishable from persons wrt to rights and taxation, but aren’t bound by a finite “life” necessarily, I can’t argue against an annual corporate tax. To be clear, I won’t support a 100% tax rate, and wouldn’t support a death tax in every single circumstance, nor do I support income tax as well as death tax (I actually believe the income tax to be in err). Ideally, the death tax would be progressive wrt age and estate value. Men would still have distinct incentive to produce and earn and more importantly, incentive to teach their children and grandchildren to do the same.

Would this system fall under communism/socialism (from each according to their ability and presumably to each according to need)? Is it an equitable system (all men are born equal)? Am I nuts?

BTW- I’m not averse to the view of the government as grave robbers.

Just look at what is going on in Venezuela. Chavez has set back that country 50 years. No one is going to invest in that countries infrastructure or its technologies. It will end up just like Cuba. Poor, outdated, and hungry.

Sounds like a great country to me.