If America Should Go Communist

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
321

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Oh, and just for kicks - go through a history of the 20th century and add up all the deaths that can be pinned on a regime that had the name ‘Socialist’ in its title.

wouldnt come close to the amount of deaths caused by poverty which in turn is caused by capitalism.

Sure…

The great capitalist Mao let 30 million starve to make a profit…

I am glad Deng Xiaping led Chinas agriculture back to its socialist roots, which explains the abundance of food…

They learned from the success of the glorious Sowjet Union which turned Russia, the former Europes breadbasket, into a nation that could feed all of its people.

Kind off.

And let us not forget the success stories of Nicaragua, Cuba, Ethopia, North Korea countries well known for their abundance.

I mourn for countries like Taiwan, South Korea and even Austria…

If we had only seen the light after WWII we would not have adopted a market system…

If I think about all the riches we would have ammassed by now, following the lead of Roumania, Bulgaria, Poland, economic powerhouses, all of them…

Capitalism, the fifth apocalyptic horseman, which is allways accompanied by war, famine, disease and poverty…

[/quote]

Hey…I hold a monopoly on spouting ironic drivel on here! :wink:

322

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

capitalism is based on the assumption that people look out only for their individual interest.[/quote]

Not exactly - it is based on the idea that people will primarily look out for their individual interest.

Because it is based on raw, unpretentious Human Nature - and it doesn’t pretend people are something that they are not. Selfishness and greed are inherent in human nature - pretending they are not leads to attempts at Utopia, and attempts at Utopia lead to millions dead.

Capitalism can most certainly co-exist with democracy, because capitalism keeps getting voted back into office. Further, communism can’t be implemented democratically - only by force.

As for ‘corporate owned’ everything, stop contributing to the problem, and throw away your corporate created computer.

And yes, we liove under capitalism - and only a few naive idealists would have it any other way. That is, right up until their plan for Earthly Paradise turned into Hell on Earth - see any communist nation in history for examples.

323

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
No one ever got rich by coming up with a brilliant idea or working his ass off. Its only by robbing people with no money… :wink:

[/quote]
The brilliant ideas didn’t come from the financial backers but were exploited by them for profit. All science and technology we currently have proves this. Most people who help develope science and technology aren’t “in it to win it”, so to speak but mostly do it because its what they love to do. These ideas do not need capitalism to thrive.

324

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
No one ever got rich by coming up with a brilliant idea or working his ass off. Its only by robbing people with no money… :wink:

The brilliant ideas didn’t come from the financial backers but were exploited by them for profit. All science and technology we currently have proves this. Most people who help develope science and technology aren’t “in it to win it”, so to speak but mostly do it because its what they love to do. These ideas do not need capitalism to thrive. [/quote]

Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!

325

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

capitalism is based on the assumption that people look out only for their individual interest.

Not exactly - it is based on the idea that people will primarily look out for their individual interest.

how can you support an economic theory that relies on selfishness and greed.

Because it is based on raw, unpretentious Human Nature - and it doesn’t pretend people are something that they are not. Selfishness and greed are inherent in human nature - pretending they are not leads to attempts at Utopia, and attempts at Utopia lead to millions dead.

we have seen the effects of capitalism, we are living them. we have wars over corporate interests, we have corporately owned governments, we have corporately owned media. capitalism cannot co-exist with democracy.

Capitalism can most certainly co-exist with democracy, because capitalism keeps getting voted back into office. Further, communism can’t be implemented democratically - only by force.

As for ‘corporate owned’ everything, stop contributing to the problem, and throw away your corporate created computer.

And yes, we liove under capitalism - and only a few naive idealists would have it any other way. That is, right up until their plan for Earthly Paradise turned into Hell on Earth - see any communist nation in history for examples.[/quote]

why do our countries leaders all have strong ties to business? we keep electing capitalism because we dont have a choice, there is no alternative. as i stated, the government is loyal to the corporations not the people. do you see nothing wrong with this?

communism can be imposed by force but not physical force. a force of the people organizing to achieve common goals, for example democracy. i dont see anything wrong with the people having the power.

again, there has never existed a communist nation. you are right that few people in the U.S. oppose capitalism because they are reaping all the benefits. if you look at what is happening in the exploited countries you will see something totally different

i say educate the people and let them make up their own minds about capitalism. but the big capitalists are afraid to do this because they fear that once the people become educated they will see the downfalls of capitalism

326

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!
[/quote]

What about China?

327

[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!

What about China?[/quote]

Their people starved under communism and are getting rich under capitalism.

328

“It’s the corporations, man! It’s the corporations!”

329

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

why do our countries leaders all have strong ties to business? we keep electing capitalism because we dont have a choice, there is no alternative.[/quote]

Well, you are righter than you think. There is no good alternative - very true.

First of all, you artificially separate ‘people’ from ‘corporations’. It is a lazy distinction - after all, people make up corporations, work for them, and invest in them. Might it be that what is good for corporations may very well be good for the people that are the corporations?

Sometimes not, of course, but often, yes - you oversimplify to create a convenient boogeyman, and it is clear you don’t want to think about anything that will spoil your cartoon of a theory.

Nor do I - after all, people choose capitalism, and I concur with the judgment.

That is no accident.

We do. Our academic institutions have basically given an enema to capitalism since the 1950s - and yet, the people who have passed through those hallowed halls of instruction still prefer capitalism.

This is pure trash - academia is the only place Marxism exists and is peddled. It is precisely in school that you will hear how awful capitalism is. Folks get ‘educated’ on the evils of capitalism all the time - and yet they still keep preferring capitalism.

Your theory is a waste - the ‘people’ know full-well about how ‘awful’ capitalism is. No one is denying the ‘people’ an education on the issue - in fact, the exact opposite is true: they are getting it rammed down their throats the moment the check for tuition cashes.

330

[quote]pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
I, for one, am angry at all those young men who gave their lives in western Europe to destroy the National Socialist paradise in Germany. How dare they impose their wicked culture on the peaceful people of Nazi Germany!

i am confused by your posts. what does natzi germany have to do with the ussr.

socialists, all of them…

i thought germany was against communism. i dont think nazi germany qualifies as socialist, in fact im certain.

Germany, Italy…basically the Axis powers were facists. They hated socialism even more than I do. The two ideologies are on opposite sides of the spectrum, but equally bad and evil.
Facism is extremly idividualistic, but only for the perfect individuals.
Socialism is for group only and completly ignores the individual as a factor.
[/quote]

Fascism is indistinguishable from communism except in their rhetoric…

331

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

why do our countries leaders all have strong ties to business? we keep electing capitalism because we dont have a choice, there is no alternative.

Well, you are righter than you think. There is no good alternative - very true.

…as i stated, the government is loyal to the corporations not the people. do you see nothing wrong with this?

First of all, you artificially separate ‘people’ from ‘corporations’. It is a lazy distinction - after all, people make up corporations, work for them, and invest in them. Might it be that what is good for corporations may very well be good for the people that are the corporations?

Sometimes not, of course, but often, yes - you oversimplify to create a convenient boogeyman, and it is clear you don’t want to think about anything that will spoil your cartoon of a theory.

communism can be imposed by force but not physical force. a force of the people organizing to achieve common goals, for example democracy. i dont see anything wrong with the people having the power.

Nor do I - after all, people choose capitalism, and I concur with the judgment.

again, there has never existed a communist nation.

That is no accident.

i say educate the people and let them make up their own minds about capitalism.

We do. Our academic institutions have basically given an enema to capitalism since the 1950s - and yet, the people who have passed through those hallowed halls of instruction still prefer capitalism.

…but the big capitalists are afraid to do this because they fear that once the people become educated they will see the downfalls of capitalism

This is pure trash - academia is the only place Marxism exists and is peddled. It is precisely in school that you will hear how awful capitalism is. Folks get ‘educated’ on the evils of capitalism all the time - and yet they still keep preferring capitalism.

Your theory is a waste - the ‘people’ know full-well about how ‘awful’ capitalism is. No one is denying the ‘people’ an education on the issue - in fact, the exact opposite is true: they are getting it rammed down their throats the moment the check for tuition cashes.[/quote]

I agree with you Thunderbolt.Capitalism works.

But I believe that due to the failings of human nature,it also needs to be policed and regulated to counter its worst excesses.

332

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
brucevangeorge wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Oh yea, I forgot to ask. Exactly where has socialism/comminism succeeded again?
Hmmmm…Oh yea, NO WHERE!

What about China?

Their people starved under communism and are getting rich under capitalism. [/quote]

Precisely!
And even if that weren’t the case, Tiananmen Square, Meow Say Tongue, Mandatory abortions, 30 million more men that women, sounds like a great place to me. Sign me up for that shit!

333

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

I agree with you Thunderbolt.Capitalism works.

But I believe that due to the failings of human nature,it also needs to be policed and regulated to counter its worst excesses.[/quote]

And I agree with this as well - humans are incapable of creating flawless, ideologically pure systems that will create Heaven on Earth. That goes for capitalism as well.

334

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:

I agree with you Thunderbolt.Capitalism works.

But I believe that due to the failings of human nature,it also needs to be policed and regulated to counter its worst excesses.

And I agree with this as well - humans are incapable of creating flawless, ideologically pure systems that will create Heaven on Earth. That goes for capitalism as well.

[/quote]

The great problem is getting the balance right isn’t it?
Tough issue.

335

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

why do our countries leaders all have strong ties to business? we keep electing capitalism because we dont have a choice, there is no alternative.

Well, you are righter than you think. There is no good alternative - very true.

…as i stated, the government is loyal to the corporations not the people. do you see nothing wrong with this?

First of all, you artificially separate ‘people’ from ‘corporations’. It is a lazy distinction - after all, people make up corporations, work for them, and invest in them. Might it be that what is good for corporations may very well be good for the people that are the corporations?

Sometimes not, of course, but often, yes - you oversimplify to create a convenient boogeyman, and it is clear you don’t want to think about anything that will spoil your cartoon of a theory.

communism can be imposed by force but not physical force. a force of the people organizing to achieve common goals, for example democracy. i dont see anything wrong with the people having the power.

Nor do I - after all, people choose capitalism, and I concur with the judgment.

again, there has never existed a communist nation.

That is no accident.

i say educate the people and let them make up their own minds about capitalism.

We do. Our academic institutions have basically given an enema to capitalism since the 1950s - and yet, the people who have passed through those hallowed halls of instruction still prefer capitalism.

…but the big capitalists are afraid to do this because they fear that once the people become educated they will see the downfalls of capitalism

This is pure trash - academia is the only place Marxism exists and is peddled. It is precisely in school that you will hear how awful capitalism is. Folks get ‘educated’ on the evils of capitalism all the time - and yet they still keep preferring capitalism.

Your theory is a waste - the ‘people’ know full-well about how ‘awful’ capitalism is. No one is denying the ‘people’ an education on the issue - in fact, the exact opposite is true: they are getting it rammed down their throats the moment the check for tuition cashes.[/quote]

there is definitely a separation between the people and the corporation. just because you work for one or invest in one does not mean you have any control over the decisions it makes. the power lies in a very few hands.

in high school i was never exposed to the workings of capitalism or communism. in college the reference to these was minimal. i agree that those who are university educated would have a greater chance of learning about these theories but what percentage of the population is that?
i am talking about educating the masses, you cant argue that the average person knows the basic theoretical workings of capitalism let alone communism.

336

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
I, for one, am angry at all those young men who gave their lives in western Europe to destroy the National Socialist paradise in Germany. How dare they impose their wicked culture on the peaceful people of Nazi Germany!

i am confused by your posts. what does natzi germany have to do with the ussr.

socialists, all of them…

i thought germany was against communism. i dont think nazi germany qualifies as socialist, in fact im certain.

Germany, Italy…basically the Axis powers were facists. They hated socialism even more than I do. The two ideologies are on opposite sides of the spectrum, but equally bad and evil.
Facism is extremly idividualistic, but only for the perfect individuals.
Socialism is for group only and completly ignores the individual as a factor.

Fascism is indistinguishable from communism except in their rhetoric…[/quote]

communists are very opposed to fascism. communism by nature is democratic. in communism there is no state, it is complete rule by the people.

337

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:

I agree with you Thunderbolt.Capitalism works.

But I believe that due to the failings of human nature,it also needs to be policed and regulated to counter its worst excesses.

And I agree with this as well - humans are incapable of creating flawless, ideologically pure systems that will create Heaven on Earth. That goes for capitalism as well.

[/quote]

There is just that tiny insignificant detail that nonone created “capitalism”. it just evolved and it that sense it never truly was an “ism”.

The reason capitalism works is that it naturally grow out of human interactions, people simply start to trade, invent money and safe given the opportunity.

All the other “isms” are constructivist fantasies of so called “intellectuals” that think they could build Utopia if everyone bowed to their wisdom.

Why am I writing this?

Because it follows that we never really know what is an excess of capitalism or an integral part of it, so by doctoring around we allmost allways do more damage than good.

338

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
I, for one, am angry at all those young men who gave their lives in western Europe to destroy the National Socialist paradise in Germany. How dare they impose their wicked culture on the peaceful people of Nazi Germany!

i am confused by your posts. what does natzi germany have to do with the ussr.

socialists, all of them…

i thought germany was against communism. i dont think nazi germany qualifies as socialist, in fact im certain.

Germany, Italy…basically the Axis powers were facists. They hated socialism even more than I do. The two ideologies are on opposite sides of the spectrum, but equally bad and evil.
Facism is extremly idividualistic, but only for the perfect individuals.
Socialism is for group only and completly ignores the individual as a factor.

Fascism is indistinguishable from communism except in their rhetoric…

communists are very opposed to fascism. communism by nature is democratic. in communism there is no state, it is complete rule by the people.[/quote]

You need to think about what you are writing just a bit deeper…

339

[quote]orion wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:

I agree with you Thunderbolt.Capitalism works.

But I believe that due to the failings of human nature,it also needs to be policed and regulated to counter its worst excesses.

And I agree with this as well - humans are incapable of creating flawless, ideologically pure systems that will create Heaven on Earth. That goes for capitalism as well.

There is just that tiny insignificant detail that nonone created “capitalism”. it just evolved and it that sense it never truly was an “ism”.

The reason capitalism works is that it naturally grow out of human interactions, people simply start to trade, invent money and safe given the opportunity.

All the other “isms” are constructivist fantasies of so called “intellectuals” that think they could build Utopia if everyone bowed to their wisdom.

Why am I writing this?

Because it follows that we never really know what is an excess of capitalism or an integral part of it, so by doctoring around we allmost allways do more damage than good.[/quote]

That is your opinion and you’re entitled to it.

Personally,I see the need for some control and regulation of the free market all around me.

340

[quote]

That is your opinion and you’re entitled to it.

Personally,I see the need for some control and regulation of the free market all around me.[/quote]

Are you sure those are the results of capitalism?

And if you are how can you be, if it is impossible to know?

It might well be the result of government intervention that was meant to solve one problem on one end of the system and creates a whole set of new ones one the other side.

The problem might not even be inherent to capitalism. Capitalism often takes the blame for things that go wrong in all systems, fE corruption.

This is not a trivial problem, because if capitalism IS the problem a free market solution is not the answer, if there just is a problem there might be a capitalist solution.

Of course politicians will allways claim that the market failed us, but they are in the market distorting business.