I Wonder (Religion)

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
You may argue that neither is “real” Buddhism, since both depart considerably from the core teachings of Gautama Siddhartha, but both were definitely used to justify violence.[/quote]

That’s pretty much my point. If you’re doing violence in the name of Buddhism, you’ve pretty much missed the whole point of it. At least from my understanding of its teachings. With the other religions, you can justify violence simply by quoting from their Holy Books; there’s very little “departure from the message” required.

Human nature being what it is, I guess there’s nothing that can’t be twisted into an excuse for war. The difference lies in the amount of twisting required.

Personally, if I was required to choose a universal religion for the planet, I’d pick secular humanism. The lack of spiritual, supernatural and divine components might not be to everyone’s tastes, though. Buddhism simply seems to me to be the closest spiritual/religious equivalent.

42

[quote]pookie wrote:
jlesk68 wrote:
I was being sarcastic implying that it looks like you’ve read it. I can understand your point of view, the Bible as a whole book is difficult to grasp without some understanding of the historic, prophetic and eschatological.

It’s odd though, that a book purported to be written (or inspired) by an omnipotent and supremely intelligent being would require so much effort to “grasp” correctly.

You’d think that the same Being would also think of “inspiring” the printing press to His creatures before delivering His message to them. Especially when you consider that the old Hebrew scrolls have no vowels and no punctuation. Clarity was apparently not a goal.

Or, simpler explanation, those books aren’t from a Divine Creator, but simply man made myth written down and needlessly revered.

[/quote]

I’m glad that it was “inspired” rather than “dictated”. Love letters from a person that we don’t have a relationship with wouldn’t make much sense, but a simple note on a napkin from the love of your life can do wonders, it’s the same with the Bible.
If you are not close to the Author, the Bible is just paper and ink, that’s how God designed it to be.

43

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
I’m glad that it was “inspired” rather than “dictated”.[/quote]

Well even the part that God wrote Himself (the 10 commandments, which he supposedly carved into stone tablets for Moses) is surprisingly lacking. God wastes 4 of the Commandments on making sure no one worships anyone/anything other than Himself, and then, His Divine Insecurity out of the way, misses quite a few items that we consider basic human rights today, such as not keeping slaves; or not considering women as cattle.

The “adultery” commandment is open to wide interpretation, as adultery does not apply when both party are not married, leaving repugnant acts like rape and incest in a gray zone at best.

Torturing someone breaks no Commandments, as long as you don’t kill them. You could torture your kids and the onus would be on them to keep honoring you.

Nothing is mentioned about fairness or justice, which is odd, considering those Commandments are supposedly the 10 things an omnipotent, all-loving God considers the most important.

And since he was in a carving mood, why didn’t he carve them in the side of a mountain so that we couldn’t lose the tablets?

Again, the alternative explanation fits a lot better.

44

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
Love letters from a person that we don’t have a relationship with wouldn’t make much sense, but a simple note on a napkin from the love of your life can do wonders, it’s the same with the Bible.[/quote]

Not really. Presumably, you’ve developed the relationship with the person you love through direct contact; at least through direct personal communication. Those love notes have meaning because of the foundation on which they rest; they aren’t the foundation in and of themselves.

People who develop one-sided relationships with people they’ve never actually met, and know only through the works, writing or appearances of that person they profess to love are generally referred to as stalkers and issued restraining orders. The whole “relationship” exists only in their minds, and as such is no actual relationship, but simply delusion.

45

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
The problem is not in the Bible, but in the corrupt heart of man, who will do whatever it takes to satisfy his lust and in the process creates “religion” to accomodate and justify his barbarism. Christian is not the one who claims it to be, but the one who shows it with his actions, Gandhi said it better (i’ll paraphrase): “I have no problem with your Christ, it’s the christians I have a problem with…”[/quote]

You fail to see the point:

It’s not about the right interpretation-
As long as someone thinks there IS a god who has spoken and declared his will to be carried out, people will continue to act like lunatics.
For each atrocity, be it as cruel as genocide, you must first dehumanize the victims or justify the outcome.

If there really IS an almighty creator who said: “Do not lay down with men as you would with women. This is an abomination” [Leviticus, 18:22] and commands to stone such acts- then who are you to disagree? The “Lord” told you to do this and the victims are heretics of the highest calibre.

The universal bill of human rights someone has posted is a good thing. What we need is the understanding that humanity can (and must) impose moral high ground, not gods.

46

[quote]pookie wrote:
jlesk68 wrote:
I’m glad that it was “inspired” rather than “dictated”.

Well even the part that God wrote Himself (the 10 commandments, which he supposedly carved into stone tablets for Moses) is surprisingly lacking. God wastes 4 of the Commandments on making sure no one worships anyone/anything other than Himself, and then, His Divine Insecurity out of the way, misses quite a few items that we consider basic human rights today, such as not keeping slaves; or not considering women as cattle.

The “adultery” commandment is open to wide interpretation, as adultery does not apply when both party are not married, leaving repugnant acts like rape and incest in a gray zone at best.

Torturing someone breaks no Commandments, as long as you don’t kill them. You could torture your kids and the onus would be on them to keep honoring you.

Nothing is mentioned about fairness or justice, which is odd, considering those Commandments are supposedly the 10 things an omnipotent, all-loving God considers the most important.

And since he was in a carving mood, why didn’t he carve them in the side of a mountain so that we couldn’t lose the tablets?

Again, the alternative explanation fits a lot better.
[/quote]

You’re right on, pookie.
Probably everyone who would try to compile ten commandments, would do a better job then the almighty one did supposedly 4000 years ago.

Like:
-don’t kill, maim, cripple, rape, inflict pain etc., generally solve conflicts without violence
-don’t steal/cheat/abuse/mistreat etc., this includes sexual behavior
-treat other human beings at least like you would have them treat you or, even better, be helpful, fair and supportive to everyone. Treat others equally.
-at least try not to be an ass to animals and the environment, don’t mindlessly waste goods
-try to productive, enlighten yourself constantly and help others progress

47

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
You’re right on, pookie.
Probably everyone who would try to compile ten commandments, would do a better job then the almighty one did supposedly 4000 years ago.[/quote]

That’s why I posted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It’s an entirely secular document, yet it manages to address everything the 10 Commandments missed.

How is it that imperfect men managed to come up with a better list than a Supreme Divine Being Who’s Perfect In Every Way?

That pesky alternative explanation always seems to fit the facts so much better. Damn, that’s annoying. Well, unless it’s true of course.

48

I predict that religion would be declared illegal sometime in the far future. Over the course of human history, religion has been the cause of a majority of conflict and war. From the Israelites being enslaved by the Egyptians, to Christians persecuted by the Romans, to Christians vs. Muslims in Bosnia, to 911, it’s been religion that has been the basic cause.

The biggest fault I find in religion is that it allows different interpretations of what is “right”. And what is “right” in religion is usually considered as God’s will. Even when that “right” goes against the most basic laws of governments - such as killing innocent people for your God, in a crusade, jihad or whatever - God’s will supercedes man’s laws everytime right?
The purpose of religion in ancient times was to keep order where no government or law existed. At a time where there were no police or courts, religion served as a guide that prevented people from harming each other out of fear of hell or eternal damnation. But now in a civilized world where we have government and laws, isn’t it about time that we declare religion obsolete? Much like how we changed our view of the earth being flat and the center of the universe, much like how we believed we were born from Adam and Eve (Christians anyways), we will one day universally accept religion as nothing more than an old and outdated guide that has lost its usefulness in today’s world.

Maybe there is a God, but if he is the Christian God that guarantees you acceptance to Heaven by killing a Muslim, or anyone who does not believe in Jesus will go to hell, or if he is the Muslim God that will give you 40 virgins in paradise for blowing yourself up in a crowd of infidels, or if he’s the Jewish God that tells you that you are the “chosen people” and everyone else is not, then maybe he’s not a God worth following. If there is indeed a God, then maybe he does not care enough about us humans to make a difference, in which case, we should follow man’s laws, and leave the religious laws to an absent God.

49

[quote].

Like:
-don’t kill, maim, cripple, rape, inflict pain etc., generally solve conflicts without violence
-don’t steal/cheat/abuse/mistreat etc., this includes sexual behavior
-treat other human beings at least like you would have them treat you or, even better, be helpful, fair and supportive to everyone. Treat others equally.
-at least try not to be an ass to animals and the environment, don’t mindlessly waste goods
-try to productive, enlighten yourself constantly and help others progress
[/quote]

  • Squats and Milk
50

[quote]RatHunter wrote:
I predict that religion would be declared illegal sometime in the far future. Over the course of human history, religion has been the cause of a majority of conflict and war. From the Israelites being enslaved by the Egyptians, to Christians persecuted by the Romans, to Christians vs. Muslims in Bosnia, to 911, it’s been religion that has been the basic cause.
[/quote]

I kind of thought along the same lines and now I don`t anymore.

If people lose their religion they simply create a new one, because the somehow need it.

I strongly believe that collectivist ideologies, especially socialism in all its forms are a form of religion or at least share many aspects with it.

And what did we get with that form of secular anti-materialistic, altruistic, man-saving religion?

Piles and piles of bodies…

It is never the particular religion, it is man that is deeply flawed.

51

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
…

The rest of the Old Testament is a litany of rape, incest, torture, homicide, fratricide, patricide, regicide, genocide, and pesticide (old bald man sending bears off to maul little children).

…[/quote]

No suicide?

52

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

No suicide?[/quote]

That’s the New Testament.