I Want My Party Back

Very appropriate observation re: this thread:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/06_03_19_corner-archive.asp#093144

COALITION OF THE WHINING [Ramesh Ponnuru]

Social conservatives are always complaining that they’re not in the driver’s seat of the Republican party. So are economic conservatives. They’re both right. Neither group alone is large enough to form an electoral majority, and thus have to participate in a coalition that gives them some of what they want but leaves them dissatisfied on other issues. (They don’t even form an electoral majority when they’re put together, incidentally.)

Allan Carlson ( http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/011/991nmrow.asp ), whose work I generally have enormous respect for, does the social-conservatives-are-always-in-the-back-of-the-bus routine in this week’s Weekly Standard.

IN THE INTERNAL POLITICS OF the Republican coalition, some members are consistently more equal than others. In particular, where the interests of the proverbial “Sam’s Club Republicans” collide with the interests of the great banks, the Sam’s Club set might as well pile into the family car and go home. . . . [W]hen push comes to shove, social conservatives remain second class citizens under the Republican tent.

Carlson is exercised by the passage–with large bipartisan majorities, as he does not point out–of bankruptcy reform last year. It’s a frivolous complaint. Social conservatives didn’t ask Republicans to block the bill. (If Carlson, or anyone else, wrote anything in the Standard opposing it on social-conservative grounds before it passed, I missed it.)

They asked for Republicans to drop the provision that would have penalized pro-life groups, and they won. And it would have been foolish for social-conservative groups to ask Congress to block the bill, because they wouldn’t have been able to make a strong case against it. See here for a defense of the bill ( http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/zywicki200503150744.asp ), which hardly deserves to be called “a new form of feudalism,” or “indentured servitude,” as Carlson has it.

What about Carlson’s other complaints against the Republicans? He wishes they would do more “to curb the egalitarian frenzy and the gender-role engineering set off by Title VII of the Civil Rights Act and Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 and enshrined at the Pentagon.”

He is concerned about child-support collection: “There is mounting evidence that the system now encourages marital breakup and exacerbates fatherlessness by creating a winner-take-all game, where the losing parent–commonly a father wanting to save the marriage–is unfairly penalized by the loss of his children and by a federally enforced child support obligation.” Maybe Republicans should take up each of these causes.

But it’s not economic conservatives, or “big business,” or “the great banks,” or “K Street Republicans,” the interchangeable villains of Carlson’s piece, that are stopping them.

Carlson is on firmer ground when he faults Republicans for not taking up legislation to extend the tax break for commercial day care to help stay-at-home mothers. That’s a great idea, but by itself–Carlson’s other examples being off point–it doesn’t add up to the general indictment he issues.

How ignorant are these fools who keep coming back to the “cutting taxes during times of war” arguement? Can they not read and see that revenues are up as a result? Would they rather Bush have raised taxes, stifled the economy, and brought in LESS money?

[quote]doogie wrote:
How ignorant are these fools who keep coming back to the “cutting taxes during times of war” arguement? Can they not read and see that revenues are up as a result? Would they rather Bush have raised taxes, stifled the economy, and brought in LESS money? [/quote]

Before I celebrated, I’d want a non-partisan analysis of how the money was being generated.

Borrowing 200B for the war, and billions more for disasters, throwing it into the economy, and then earning taxes on it must have some type of effect as well.

What is the NET result?

Just wanted to mention the economy is nearly at full employment.

Wall Street looking pretty strong.

Vote democrat!!! Why, because…we aren’t Republicans!!!

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Just wanted to mention the economy is nearly at full employment.

Wall Street looking pretty strong.

Vote democrat!!! Why, because…we aren’t Republicans!!!

JeffR[/quote]

The economy is not at full employment at all.

US unemployment rate heads higher

The US manufacturing sector shrunk last month
The US unemployment rate rose to 4.8% last month, even though the number of new jobs added to the economy increased by 243,000, the Labor Department said.

And this is, of course, keeping in mind the fact that once you have been without a job for six months, the Bush administration takes you off the unemployment books.

Also, as talked about in the article, the majority of jobs being added to the economy areservice jobs without benefits.

[quote]Brad61 wrote:
hedo wrote:
Few conservatives hold religious prejudices that could compete with the liberal prejudice against religion.

Most conservatives I know are tolerant of all beliefs, including atheism. They wouldn’t think of mocking what others believe

Oh sure, I believe you. This is from the Power Of Christ thread. Do you know what cognitive dissonance is?

“Judge not according to the appearance…” -

Your appearance at T-Nation - vulgar, obscene, perverse, morally liberal.

You frequent the sex forums and defend it as justifiable for Christians to play with sex. Sex is great! I love it with my wife. You, on the otherhand, don’t care if it’s man and woman, woman and woman, man and man, woman man and man and man, etc…

Of course, this is just the appearance. However, the Bible tells us that it should stay with Man and wife. The appearance is that you don’t care what God’s word says - you’ll do what you want to do.

Wow, that sounds really tolerant of all beliefs.

If somebody wants to believe that every word in the bible should be interpretted literally, that’s their problem. The problem within the Republican party is that a lot of these kooks are now running the party and making decisions for the rest of the party and the rest of the country, that do not share their views.

Hell it’s no skin off my nose, in fact I love it. I think most Americans will find the views of Christian extremists politically offensive (banning contraception, banning abortion with zero exceptions, banning pornography, etc). The more people get exposed to these views the more they will reject them.

What’s relevant to this thread is that religious extremists are fragmenting the GOP, and may very well make it impossible for them to win at the polls in the future.[/quote]

Dude your out to lunch. You quoted one portion of my post and then went moonbat with the rest of it.

I probably have a more liberal social outlook then you do. You sound like a bigot and your post kind of proves the point. Wouldn’t true tolerance be accepting the fact that others don’t have the same outlook as you do on life?

I didn’t read the thread you referenced. I don’t generally get involved in religious discussions because I’m tolerant of others beliefs and I’m conservative.

The quote I made was paraphrased from Ralph Peters in his book New Glory. (chapter 2)It’s a critical analysis of the American Military. I’m suprised you haven’t read it?

[quote]doogie wrote:
How ignorant are these fools who keep coming back to the “cutting taxes during times of war” arguement? Can they not read and see that revenues are up as a result? Would they rather Bush have raised taxes, stifled the economy, and brought in LESS money? [/quote]

Please tell me you’re not arguing that cutting taxes raises revenue.

I know Sean Hannity promotes this bullshit five times a day on his radio show, but it’s simply not true.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/2/13/81426/9950

It’s all relative isn’t it. A service job is better then unemployment. Are other counties creating better higher paying jobs then the US? Doubtful.

"Here at home, I’m also encouraged by the strength of our economy. Last year, our economy grew at a health 3.5 percent. Over the past two and a half years, the economy has added nearly 5 million new jobs. That’s more than Japan and the 25 nations of the European Union combined.

The national unemployment rate is 4.8 percent. That’s lower than the average rate of the 1970s and the 1980s and the 1990s.

Productivity is strong. Inflation is contained. Household net worth is at an all-time high. Real after-tax income is up more than 8 percent per person since the beginning of 2001.

(depsite 9/11 The GWOT and Katrina)

The growing economy is a result of the hard work of the American people and good policies here in Washington." – George Bush

[quote]harris447 wrote:
doogie wrote:
How ignorant are these fools who keep coming back to the “cutting taxes during times of war” arguement? Can they not read and see that revenues are up as a result? Would they rather Bush have raised taxes, stifled the economy, and brought in LESS money?

Please tell me you’re not arguing that cutting taxes raises revenue.

I know Sean Hannity promotes this bullshit five times a day on his radio show, but it’s simply not true.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/2/13/81426/9950

[/quote]

Actually revenue did go up. Frist quotes the CBO in the following excerpt. 14.5% seems pretty conclusive.

The article you linked really doesn’t conclude anything and if you link tot he congressional data he references it does not support his argument.

It’s not tax cuts that kill a balanced budget, it’s the spending.

"Many people in Washington have long known a dirty little secret about tax-cut measures: When done right, they actually result in more money for the government.

Ever since the Senate approved the last major tax relief bill, in 2003, revenues have increased every year. In 2004, they went up 5.5%. Last year, they rose 14.5%, the largest increase in nearly 25 years.

Total government collections, in fact, increased more after President Bush’s 2003 tax cuts than they did after President Clinton’s 1994 tax hikes." –

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Just wanted to mention the economy is nearly at full employment.

Wall Street looking pretty strong.

Vote democrat!!! Why, because…we aren’t Republicans!!!

JeffR[/quote]

hey Jeff,

the country is at nearly full employment sure…but why are there still so many poor people?

I’m not trying to say that the tens of millions of working poor are the result of just republicans…but why do you think there are so many?

are we not the wealthiest large country in the world? why are so many working people at the bottom?

again I’m not putting the blame at the feet of the republican or democtatic parties…I think it’s more complex than that…

what’s your opinion?

Some tax cuts are more revenue-generating than are others.

The cuts that generate the most revenue are the ones on investments: cap gains and dividends.

It’s really amazing how during the Clinton years revenue surged after the Republican Congress did a large cut in the cap gains rate. Even more amazing, that also started quite the stock market run up…

Income-tax rate cuts generate less, but still do generate income.

The ones that are revenue negative are ones like the child tax credit or other such cuts that aren’t related to spurring economic production/activity.

[quote]DPH wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Just wanted to mention the economy is nearly at full employment.

Wall Street looking pretty strong.

Vote democrat!!! Why, because…we aren’t Republicans!!!

JeffR

hey Jeff,

the country is at nearly full employment sure…but why are there still so many poor people?

I’m not trying to say that the tens of millions of working poor are the result of just republicans…but why do you think there are so many?

are we not the wealthiest large country in the world? why are so many working people at the bottom?

again I’m not putting the blame at the feet of the republican or democtatic parties…I think it’s more complex than that…

what’s your opinion?[/quote]

Good point. I’m not a fan of terms or concepts like “social justice,” but I don’t think growing income inequality is really a good thing.

You’re referencing the mighty Bondad on a blog run by people who worked on Dean’s campain? Shit. It must be true.

Anyway, all he really says it that it can’t be proven that tax cuts raise revenue, and that if taxes are cut then spending should be, too.

I’ll see your leftwing drivel with this:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/BG1086.cfm

[quote]hedo wrote:
It’s all relative isn’t it. A service job is better then unemployment. Are other counties creating better higher paying jobs then the US? Doubtful.

"Here at home, I’m also encouraged by the strength of our economy. Last year, our economy grew at a health 3.5 percent. Over the past two and a half years, the economy has added nearly 5 million new jobs. That’s more than Japan and the 25 nations of the European Union combined.

The national unemployment rate is 4.8 percent. That’s lower than the average rate of the 1970s and the 1980s and the 1990s.

Productivity is strong. Inflation is contained. Household net worth is at an all-time high. Real after-tax income is up more than 8 percent per person since the beginning of 2001.

(depsite 9/11 The GWOT and Katrina)

The growing economy is a result of the hard work of the American people and good policies here in Washington." – George Bush

[/quote]

That’s not the point though is it? The economy has been doing very well, with occasional blips and a very mild recession that helped Clinton get elected, for the better part of two decades. The issue is the complete fiscal mess the government is in, thanks almost solely to this administration.

[quote]harris447 wrote:

And this is, of course, keeping in mind the fact that once you have been without a job for six months, the Bush administration takes you off the unemployment books.[/quote]

Why must you be intellectually dishonest? The ‘Bush’ administration doesn’t take you off the employment books in order to make itself look better, as you imply - that has been the procedure on the statistical model long before Bush came into office.

[quote]doogie wrote:
How ignorant are these fools who keep coming back to the “cutting taxes during times of war” arguement? Can they not read and see that revenues are up as a result? Would they rather Bush have raised taxes, stifled the economy, and brought in LESS money? [/quote]

Exactly. Ourproblems are due to over spending not under revenue.

The cutting taxes argument is a red herring.

DPH: ‘Poor’ in America is vastly different from poor in other countries. ‘Poor’ in America generally means that you still have plenty of food to eat, a car, a TV, and indoor plumbing.

[quote]hedo wrote:
harris447 wrote:
doogie wrote:
How ignorant are these fools who keep coming back to the “cutting taxes during times of war” arguement? Can they not read and see that revenues are up as a result? Would they rather Bush have raised taxes, stifled the economy, and brought in LESS money?

Please tell me you’re not arguing that cutting taxes raises revenue.

I know Sean Hannity promotes this bullshit five times a day on his radio show, but it’s simply not true.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/2/13/81426/9950

Actually revenue did go up. Frist quotes the CBO in the following excerpt. 14.5% seems pretty conclusive.

The article you linked really doesn’t conclude anything and if you link tot he congressional data he references it does not support his argument.

It’s not tax cuts that kill a balanced budget, it’s the spending.

"Many people in Washington have long known a dirty little secret about tax-cut measures: When done right, they actually result in more money for the government.

Ever since the Senate approved the last major tax relief bill, in 2003, revenues have increased every year. In 2004, they went up 5.5%. Last year, they rose 14.5%, the largest increase in nearly 25 years.

Total government collections, in fact, increased more after President Bush’s 2003 tax cuts than they did after President Clinton’s 1994 tax hikes." –

[/quote]

Ah, but what Frist fails to mention(deliberately, I believe) is that “huge”
increase of 14.5% [i]stilldidn’t bring revenues back to where they were the year before Bush took office![i]

1995: $1.35 trillion
1996: $1.45 trillion
1997: $1.58 trillion
1998: $1.72 trillion
1999: $1.83 trillion
2000: $2.03 trillion
2001: $1.99 trillion
2002: $1.85 trillion
2003: $1.78 trillion
2004: $1.88 trillion

Also…Frist doesn’t adjust his numbers for inflation!

[quote]doogie wrote:

doogie wrote:
How ignorant are these fools who keep coming back to the “cutting taxes during times of war” arguement? Can they not read and see that revenues are up as a result? Would they rather Bush have raised taxes, stifled the economy, and brought in LESS money?

harris447 wrote:
Please tell me you’re not arguing that cutting taxes raises revenue.

I know Sean Hannity promotes this bullshit five times a day on his radio show, but it’s simply not true.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/2/13/81426/9950

You’re referencing the mighty Bondad on a blog run by people who worked on Dean’s campain? Shit. It must be true.

Anyway, all he really says it that it can’t be proven that tax cuts raise revenue, and that if taxes are cut then spending should be, too.

I’ll see your leftwing drivel with this:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/BG1086.cfm

[/quote]

That website is doing the exact thing my article talks about.

It has a huge chart promulgating the myth that Reagan cut taxes and raised revenue when in fact, revenue only increased after Reagan raised taxes!

It has a chart linking tax cutting to revenue-raising in the late 20’s, without mentioning the stock market boom. (That chart cuts off at 1929, by the way…)

The Laffer curve is a very good name for this economic illusion: it’s laughable.

[quote]DPH wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Just wanted to mention the economy is nearly at full employment.

Wall Street looking pretty strong.

Vote democrat!!! Why, because…we aren’t Republicans!!!

JeffR

hey Jeff,

the country is at nearly full employment sure…but why are there still so many poor people?

I’m not trying to say that the tens of millions of working poor are the result of just republicans…but why do you think there are so many?

are we not the wealthiest large country in the world? why are so many working people at the bottom?

again I’m not putting the blame at the feet of the republican or democtatic parties…I think it’s more complex than that…

what’s your opinion?[/quote]

Hold on while JeffR checks the GOP website to see how he should feel about this.