Hussein + Bin Laden

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]hedo wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Vroom,

“Thunder, does your statement imply that I’d be afraid to talk to you the way I talk here because you are so big, strong and manly or something?”

Nope - it doesn’t imply it at all.

“Anyhow, put up some reasoned discussion, show a bit of flexibility, be able to support your viewpoint with reasoning instead of talking point regurgitation… I’m waiting… still.”

You’re claiming never support my opinions with reasoning?

Let’s put that to a vote.

Thunderbolt

You are dead on point. It’s supposed to be about debate but it rarely is so anymore. Vroom is by far one of the worst. If the mods banned personal insults and attacks for one day I don’t think he would get a post thru. There’s plenty of others that apply too. They really have very little in the way of opinion other then to be against someone else’s idea and when they get blasted it’s right to name calling. For christ sakes make a point, post a topic and then talk about. Constantly bashing the other guy is just boring.

Your also right about limiting participation, people just get annoyed and or bored with the constant whining. Ultimately that loses people and believe it or not I am sure that Biotest uses this board as a marketing device. It’s not about censorship, it’s about manners. Guys feel perfectly safe acting like douche bags on the internet and always proclaim they would be the same way in person. I sincerely doubt that. You act like a douche in public, at a gym or a bar, and somebody eventually kicks your ass. Fact of life. Maybe some of these guys are that annoying that they really act out like that in public. I doubt it though. Be clear I am not threatening anyome. I am pointing out that men don’t insult groups of men in public. They get tossed out or worse but rarely respected, admired or listned too.

Hey we have all stooped to do. It at some point and I can only imagine the response I will get. The regulars used to keep the real twits in check. So I am glad to see a movement to point this out. Who knows maybe things will change. Lot of good guys stopped posting here because of this childish bullshit. Like to see some of them comeback.

Some message boards have a rule. Stay on topic, no flames, etc. My two cents is that it would improve this board and garner a lot more participation. Like I said though, it would take away most of the content for some posters.

[/quote]

What you implied about Vroom is absurd and comes across as very small. You are upset because things don’t flow like you want them to be. Well that’s the real world and as some go away others come into the fold. Sometimes you like it and sometimes you don’t but that’s life buddy.

82

Elk

I can respect anyones opinion and actually enjoy discussing politics. Sorry if you think it’s small but ignoring the obvious doesn’t make it go away.

Are you saying insulting people is good for the debate. Calling people retards for example?

I’m not an absolutist and either are you but if you accept bad behavior simply because he’s one of yours, it makes you an idealogue.

83

[quote]vroom wrote:
Civil? What? This is T-Nation isn’t it? Why am I the only person who has to be civil in the political forums? What a crock…

The PC police, they live inside of my head.
The PC police, they come to me in my bed.
The PC police, they’re coming to arrest me, oh no.

You know that talk is cheap, and those rumors ain’t nice.
And when I fall asleep I don?t think I?ll survive the night, the night.

'cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev’ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.

The PC police, they live inside of my head.
(live inside of my head.)
The PC police, they come to me in my bed.
(come to me in my bed.)
The PC police, they’re coming to arrest me, oh no.

Well, I can’t tell lies, 'cause they’re listening to me.
And when I fall asleep, bet they’re spying on me tonight, tonight.

'cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev?ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.

I try to sleep, they’re wide awake, they won’t leave me alone.
They don’t get paid to take vacations, or let me alone.
They spy on me, I try to hide, they won’t let me alone.
They persecute me, they’re the judge and jury all in one.

'cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev’ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.

The PC police, they live inside of my head.
The PC police, they come to me in my bed.
The PC police, they’re coming to arrest me.[/quote]

bro that tune’s like 30 years old. you really are from canada. eh ?

84

[quote]iscariot wrote:
If we take this notion of causality: that is, Bin Laden and Hussein are connected, then we can also argue that the US is attacking itself insofar as there is clearly documented proof that various US regimes have supplied weapons/ tactical information/ money/ resources etc to both regimes/ men in the past…

:slight_smile:

Unless , of course, past actions don’t actually mean anything?
[/quote]

Kind of funny, but it is my understanding that while the US certainly did supply weapons to the mujahadeen in Afghanistan, Bin Laden refused our weapons and training. He is a multimillionaire afterall.

Popular opinion has held that we have supplied Bin Laden, but the books I have read indicate differently.

Of course we supplied Saddam, but not anywhere near the level the USSR did.

85

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
Fox News and Brit Hume? Oh that proves it, then. Remember, they are fair and balanced.

There’s no need for this thread anyway, Jeff. Saddam and Bin Laden are the same person. Dubya told me so. That’s why we went after Iraq, when Al Qaeda attacked.[/quote]

Funny shit!

86

Vroom,

“Did Iraq do anything, anything at all that we know of, to plan, aid or abet terrorists involved in the 9/11 attacks? Has anyone generated one item of evidence to suggest this?”

I see this is a sticking point with you.

It seems your threshold for war in Iraq should be based on a direct relationship between Saddam and the attacks of 9/11 - as in, if he was involved, we are justified in taking him out, if he was not, then there is no justification.

But I take a different approach, and I think it is the same one the Bush administration did, in that the threat of Saddam brokering his WMDs was enough of a reason to take him out. His terror ties - while not rising to the level of being involved in 9/11 - were unacceptable in a post-9/11 world.

Difference is: your threshold for war in Iraq is higher, mine is lower. Waiting to find evidence of direct relationships or ‘smoking gun’ information too often comes after the fact - after something terrible happens and we respond to it.

And it is a fair point of contention - I have no problem ostensibly with folks saying that we only should have gone to war in Iraq if we had better information that he and OBL were pals. But I do ask those folks - are the risks of waiting around worth it?

87

Thunder, see, this is an area of contention, where our viewpoints differ, that can appropriately be a point of discussion.

As I’m sure you are aware, my opinion is that the possibility for something to happen in the future is a very dangerous thing to base preemptive warfare on. If Saddam actually had WMD’s or actually had reasonable ties to terrorist groups then it would be easier to accept a reasonable justification for the war.

For example, during the cold war, it could have been argued that the USSR might launch nuclear weapons. Therefor, the USSR should have been invaded, because of the possibility of attack at any time.

In the past, the world hasn’t worked that way. I don’t know how it is going to work in the future. If the US sets up a policy of attacking anyone who could possibly be a threat, but not too much of a threat, I think it will be perceived as the worldwide bully and be reviled by many.

Some don’t seem to care what the rest of the world thinks. This exact attitude is what makes the mistreatment of others possible and leads to hatred and the availability of disaffected people for recruitment by groups such as Al Queda.

This has to be stopped. Weapons, destruction and death are an acute reaction to the symptoms of the problem, but do not address the underlying issues that have allowed the problem to grow. It is like using modern western medicine to hide the symptoms of an illness, without actually getting rid of the underlying causative problem.

88

[quote]vroom wrote:
But I take a different approach, and I think it is the same one the Bush administration did, in that the threat of Saddam brokering his WMDs was enough of a reason to take him out.

Thunder, see, this is an area of contention, where our viewpoints differ, that can appropriately be a point of discussion.

As I’m sure you are aware, my opinion is that the possibility for something to happen in the future is a very dangerous thing to base preemptive warfare on. If Saddam actually had WMD’s or actually had reasonable ties to terrorist groups then it would be easier to accept a reasonable justification for the war.

For example, during the cold war, it could have been argued that the USSR might launch nuclear weapons. Therefor, the USSR should have been invaded, because of the possibility of attack at any time.

In the past, the world hasn’t worked that way. I don’t know how it is going to work in the future. If the US sets up a policy of attacking anyone who could possibly be a threat, but not too much of a threat, I think it will be perceived as the worldwide bully and be reviled by many.

Some don’t seem to care what the rest of the world thinks. This exact attitude is what makes the mistreatment of others possible and leads to hatred and the availability of disaffected people for recruitment by groups such as Al Queda.

This has to be stopped. Weapons, destruction and death are an acute reaction to the symptoms of the problem, but do not address the underlying issues that have allowed the problem to grow. It is like using modern western medicine to hide the symptoms of an illness, without actually getting rid of the underlying causative problem.[/quote]

You have touched on something which I think takes a considerable amount of insight to really understand (not claiming I do). The underlying issues of terrorism need to be addressed. The easy answer is that this is impossible. However, if don’t at least try to somehow turn the thinking of the next generation of US haters we are indeed in for a long drawn out war which we will win, but should be avoided if at all possible.

As to current foreign policy: When the terrorists ran those planes into the twin towers and the Pentagon the rules of engagement changed forever.

How can we now wait knowing that it will not be a traditional threat in the sense that someone will declare war on us prior to attacking, or that an enemy will only go after our military targets around the world? If we were to think that way that would be outdated and potentially disastrous!

President Bush saw the enormous potential which Saddam had at his finger tips. He did after all gas the kurds. We know he had the capability and desire to spread this sort of terrorism.

Was there a direct connection to Bin Laden? We can debate that from now until Bib Laden is actually caught (and I believe that he will be) and not have an answer. However, the large picture is that Saddam on his own, without Bin Laden was quite dangerous.

I can fully understand those who are against the war in Iraq crying foul. Is the US now going to invade every country that has the potential to do us harm?

The short answer is any country who not only has the potential, but also the will (ruthless intent) and rattles it’s saber against us deserves very close inspection! There exists only one other country that fits that description in my opinion and it’s not Iran. That country is N. Korea!

A better question would be this: How would you have felt if we did nothing relative to Iraq and Saddam unleashed some sort of terrorist attack on the shores of the US, or against some other US or democratic interest across the globe? The possibility was there, it has now been removed!

No one can argue that that is a bad thing.

89

[quote]Vegita wrote:
The one thing I have paid attention to now that I only read the political forums and no longer post here regularly is that Vroom and Elk are constantly getting into it with someone. I swear I can list at least fifteen different people who you guys pester to no end with your childish little internet arguments and name calling. It does bring the collective IQ of the political forums down and people who have an interest in politics simply stop contributing to threads. You’ve both always got an answer for everything and I have yet to see one of you be wrong in anything. I wish the mods would disallow personal attacks such as you are… “insert insult”. Sarcasm is one thing, being snide is one thing, but you two just never quit with the straight up name calling. Every damn post turns into a battle back and forth with everyone asking you to tone it down and you calling more names supposedly tacking the “hardcore” highground. I know for a fact that you two will probably respond to this post with several very cute personal attacks on me. Oh well my voice is heard, I will go back to sleep in politics again.

V[/quote]

Thank you for going back to sleep… please be sure to use some type of powerful sleep aid to insure a long slumber. This will be appreciated!

Night night,

e hater “lowering forum standards since 03”

90

e-hater wrote:

"e hater “lowering forum standards since 03"”

I would like to ask you to stop being funny.

It makes it far more difficult for me to hate you back.

JeffR / Cream / Zeb / Rainjack / Zap / Hedo / Wufuguy / Nephorm /BB / GeorgeBushRules, etc…

91

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Vegita wrote:
The one thing I have paid attention to now that I only read the political forums and no longer post here regularly is that Vroom and Elk are constantly getting into it with someone. I swear I can list at least fifteen different people who you guys pester to no end with your childish little internet arguments and name calling. It does bring the collective IQ of the political forums down and people who have an interest in politics simply stop contributing to threads. You’ve both always got an answer for everything and I have yet to see one of you be wrong in anything. I wish the mods would disallow personal attacks such as you are… “insert insult”. Sarcasm is one thing, being snide is one thing, but you two just never quit with the straight up name calling. Every damn post turns into a battle back and forth with everyone asking you to tone it down and you calling more names supposedly tacking the “hardcore” highground. I know for a fact that you two will probably respond to this post with several very cute personal attacks on me. Oh well my voice is heard, I will go back to sleep in politics again.

V

Thank you for going back to sleep… please be sure to use some type of powerful sleep aid to insure a long slumber. This will be appreciated!

Night night,

e hater “lowering forum standards since 03”[/quote]

That was funny, but to all the serious posters, you only proved my point. Now if you could just rely on the funny guy act instead of the online prick act, life would be so much better here.

V

92

Veg, maybe you should lighten up and realize these things go in an ebb and flow type of manner.

Sometimes people have the time to take the care to build a serious message, and sometimes they don’t.

It’s a public Internet forum… get used to it. I hear your opinion, only I just don’t care. Sorry. Life is like that.

93

Oh, veg, it is my lifes dream to please you… let me get started on that right away! How is it again that you would like me to act?

You know veg, I don’t give a damn about you… why do you give a damn about me or Vroom? Sorry, but you don’t decide what gets posted If you don’t like it then go back to sleep, or hitting the bong, or playing video games, whatever it is that you do in the basement.

94

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Oh, veg, it is my lifes dream to please you… let me get started on that right away! How is it again that you would like me to act?

You know veg, I don’t give a damn about you… why do you give a damn about me or Vroom? Sorry, but you don’t decide what gets posted If you don’t like it then go back to sleep, or hitting the bong, or playing video games, whatever it is that you do in the basement. [/quote]

Actually I’m out chasing my dreams, having fun with my friends and spending time with my family. I do care about the both of you because you not only refelect of yourselves, but you reflect T-Nation to some point as well. Neither of you represent it very well mind you this is why I would love to see a little bit more “brotherhood” towards fellow posters.

See the problem stems from the fact that you both post like trolls, yet you are both here long term. Generally a troll is fun to banter back and forth with, it’s fun to see em get all twisted out over some rediculous shit. However your acts are getting predictable, old and quite frankly annoying. I know you both like to annoy people, kinda like that six year old girl at the family reunion that pesters everyone so they get the most attention. I guess it’s in both of your natures to be that six year old girl. Both of your maturity is not to be desired.

V

95

Veg, your posts are getting old too. Perhaps you would like to play mommy to someone else for a while?

Why don’t you go chase down those with whom you agree, politically, and get them to stop acting inappropriately on the forums.

As with everything else political, it is really prevelant on both sides of the aisle.

I too have been disappointed by the same old tired responses from people, it is indeed very predictable. I too have to fight the urge to just wander away because there isn’t anyone willing to actually think and discuss real issues.

What you need to realize is that the forums are not a place to go and hear your own viewpoints echoed, or to voice your viewpoints and not be criticized.

The political forums are for those that are able to take the heated wrangling that follows after expressing an opinion or disagreeing with someone elses opinion.

If you don’t think you can participate in that environment, then don’t. I assure you however, that the behavior you are, once again, crying about is there precisely because it is appropriate and called for by the actions of people participating in the forums.

Whether or not you see it, your posts are an attempt to control the tone and nature of the posts of others.

I like to refer to it as a desire for political correctness. You see, apparently it is okay to offend everyone else in the world, but it isn’t okay to offend the right wing defenders of his Bushiness.

We can offend women. We can offend minorities. We can offend fat people. We can offend skinny people. Who can’t we offend?

Those people who want to discuss a certain type of politics and represent their prehistoric redneck notions of politics without it being pointed out how shallow their thinking is.

Grow up. Grow a thick skin. Let it bounce off you like a raindrop on a ducks back. Talk about something meaningful and create a discussion of substance.

Go back a few posts, you’ll see I responded with meaningful thoughts on the topic in reply to such a post from someone who had been bitching about the nature of posts and saying comments similar to yours.

Do you actually have anything worthwhile to say on the topic Veg, or are you down here telling the world how you hate it that people with liberal or libertarian opinions are allowed to express themselves with impunity?

Perhaps we should be censored? Would that make you happy? People that say things you don’t like to hear should be censored, so that you’ll only have to listen to people that agree with you. Yeah, that sounds about right.

You need to do some serious thinking, post some comments that are worthy of something other than derision, show an understanding of the world that is deeper than “might makes right” and then maybe you’ll be taken a little more seriously.

I’ve gone to great lengths not to slide into silly personal attacks, but I’m really saying the same thing, just in long hand.

So, as serious advice, the best thing I can offer is not to take the political forums personally. Try not to carry around baggage from post to post, but give the poster the benefit of the doubt as soon as they start talking about something of substance. Realize that people have no reason to acknowledge the correctness of your viewpoint, any more than you have to acknowledge theirs.

It is a level playing field. Make of it what you will.

96

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Oh, veg, it is my lifes dream to please you… let me get started on that right away! How is it again that you would like me to act?

You know veg, I don’t give a damn about you… why do you give a damn about me or Vroom? Sorry, but you don’t decide what gets posted If you don’t like it then go back to sleep, or hitting the bong, or playing video games, whatever it is that you do in the basement.

Actually I’m out chasing my dreams, having fun with my friends and spending time with my family. I do care about the both of you because you not only refelect of yourselves, but you reflect T-Nation to some point as well. Neither of you represent it very well mind you this is why I would love to see a little bit more “brotherhood” towards fellow posters.

See the problem stems from the fact that you both post like trolls, yet you are both here long term. Generally a troll is fun to banter back and forth with, it’s fun to see em get all twisted out over some rediculous shit. However your acts are getting predictable, old and quite frankly annoying. I know you both like to annoy people, kinda like that six year old girl at the family reunion that pesters everyone so they get the most attention. I guess it’s in both of your natures to be that six year old girl. Both of your maturity is not to be desired.

V[/quote]

Vroom was very nice in his response to this. I honestly just think you are a frustrated little bitch.

97

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Oh, veg, it is my lifes dream to please you… let me get started on that right away! How is it again that you would like me to act?

You know veg, I don’t give a damn about you… why do you give a damn about me or Vroom? Sorry, but you don’t decide what gets posted If you don’t like it then go back to sleep, or hitting the bong, or playing video games, whatever it is that you do in the basement.

Actually I’m out chasing my dreams, having fun with my friends and spending time with my family. I do care about the both of you because you not only refelect of yourselves, but you reflect T-Nation to some point as well. Neither of you represent it very well mind you this is why I would love to see a little bit more “brotherhood” towards fellow posters.

See the problem stems from the fact that you both post like trolls, yet you are both here long term. Generally a troll is fun to banter back and forth with, it’s fun to see em get all twisted out over some rediculous shit. However your acts are getting predictable, old and quite frankly annoying. I know you both like to annoy people, kinda like that six year old girl at the family reunion that pesters everyone so they get the most attention. I guess it’s in both of your natures to be that six year old girl. Both of your maturity is not to be desired.

V

Vroom was very nice in his response to this. I honestly just think you are a frustrated little bitch. [/quote]

Elk

You know I think vroom is more than capable of handling himself. since you have become his defender ad nauseum, you really have very little quality input anymore.

That is disappointing. You used to have interesting and quality posts. You were one of the first to make me think about my own views and give credence and thought to others. Sorry that has gone by the wayside.

98

I don’t know Sasquatch, except for the last little tirade of “I don’t like how you post messages – and the tripe that always generates”… I’ve seen Elk write some thoughtful and meaningful posts over the last several weeks.

I really think these things naturally ebb and flow.

It’s strange though, that people are only out of line when they disagree with another, it never matters how they conduct themselves when they are agreeing with the person who would do the complaining.

When I see people complaining stop engaging in such tactics themselves, or start griping about the tactics of those that share similar views to their own, I’ll consider giving a damn.

99

I agree with sasquatch to a degree.

Stop getting involved with who called who what.

There are personalities on this board that have a very defensive mindset. Let it go.

Ignore posters that refuse to have intellectually honest discussions if they really make you mad enough to call them names.

Ignorance kills. Not your problem.

100

sasquatch, I will speak up whenever I feel compelled to. When I see the conservatives using at times insidious tactics to try and discredit Vroom it compels me to speak up and I do.

Vroom, doesn’t need me to, he is in my opinion intellectually far ahead of me. He doesn’t ask me to, but me being the kind of person I am, will speak up when I think shitty tactics are being used on someone.

If you don’t think I give insightful posts that’s totally fine, I guess you can disregard them.

Marmadog, is entitled to his opinion as well, but I am not here to conform to anyones standards other then the mods.

I know, I can at times come off pretty unpolished and I can be wrong, but what I say is what I truly feel. Why don’t you attempt to take a look at some of your hypocrisies sasquatch or your like minded friends hypocrisies.

You are mature enough to do this, I don’t think Veg is so I pretty much ignore him unless he makes a direct comment at me then I will respond with the same tone he affords me.