Howard Dean

Unprovoked? Saddam ignored 18 UN resolutions, attacked two of his neighbors, gassed Kurds (giving evidence of having WMD and willingness to use same), was bribing everyone under the sun, was hoping to monopolize oil and have it priced in Euros (which would play havoc with our economy), had bluffed every intelligience agency in the world that he had massive stockpiles of WMD and would use them on our troops. Unprovoked? You may want to think before you write.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
This man scares me! If you guys are familiar with Germany in the 1920’s, Hitler was regarded as an absolute clown who made outrageous statements and was laughed at. We all know what happened: the economy collapsed and people started listening to the clown. Anyone who thinks Bush is Hitler-reborn should look at this very evil person who has taken over the Democratic party. This guy is DANGEROUS!!!

I agree with you. If this man became president he might start an unprovoked war of aggression sending thousands to their deaths. Oh, wait that’s already happened. [/quote]

[quote]hedo wrote:
Howard certainly alienated even his most bias supporters the other day in San Francisco.

Pelosi is starting to distance herself today…his end is near.[/quote]

No! Say it isn’t so, I want to see Dean in there until the next Presidential election!

I honestly feel he will end up helping to elect another republican President.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
hedo wrote:
Howard certainly alienated even his most bias supporters the other day in San Francisco.

Pelosi is starting to distance herself today…his end is near.

No! Say it isn’t so, I want to see Dean in there until the next Presidential election!

I honestly feel he will end up helping to elect another republican President.[/quote]

She was “stunned” I guess at Dean’s wildly radical statement that the GOP is “pretty much a white christian party”

note: 82% of repubs are white christians.

Dear Nancy Pelosi: Please try to keep mouth shut.

sump “everyone in America agrees with democrats” pump-lump wrote:

“She was “stunned” I guess at Dean’s wildly radical statement that the GOP is “pretty much a white christian party””

Well!!! Well!!! Well!!!

So you are a deaniac, huh? No surprise.

“note: 82% of repubs are white christians.”

Please send the link for this. I am curious.

“Dear Nancy Pelosi: Please try to keep mouth shut.”

No!!! Keep talking nancy “I hate rich people yet am the wealthiest person in the House of Representatives” pelosi.

lumpy, I’ll freely admit that you are more of a hardcore party follower than I or anyone else on this board.

You border on being a democratic fundamentalist!!!

For God’s sake, next time you lose an election, don’t change your name.

I have to admit I was worried about you after the November elections.

Just hang in there, your party won’t get another turn.

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
sump “everyone in America agrees with democrats” pump-lump wrote:

“She was “stunned” I guess at Dean’s wildly radical statement that the GOP is “pretty much a white christian party””

Well!!! Well!!! Well!!!

So you are a deaniac, huh? No surprise.
[/quote]
I don’t know about deaniac, but so far he’s doing a damn fine job—it’s also real fun watching the right fake fume and fuss over true statements.

can’t search Usa Today right now for the gallup poll so this’ll have to do.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/09/MNG52D5RTC1.DTL

[quote]

“Dear Nancy Pelosi: Please try to keep mouth shut.”

No!!! Keep talking nancy “I hate rich people yet am the wealthiest person in the House of Representatives” pelosi.

lumpy, I’ll freely admit that you are more of a hardcore party follower than I or anyone else on this board.

You border on being a democratic fundamentalist!!!

For God’s sake, next time you lose an election, don’t change your name.

I have to admit I was worried about you after the November elections.

Just hang in there, your party won’t get another turn.

JeffR[/quote]

100meters,

“…but so far he’s doing a damn fine job—it’s also real fun watching the right fake fume and fuss over true statements.”

Except that he is not.

I don’t consider it a success when you have major warhorses of the Democratic Party flatly stating that Dean doesn’t speak for the party. Nor do I consider it a success that Dean is not bringing in the money the Dems had hoped.

As for the ‘true’ statements - the middle class voted to put Bush back in office, by and large - you don’t think the middle class has ever worked an honest day in their collective life?

Never forget, this is Dean - the man who changed denominations of Christian faith over a bike path.

100meters:

Yes, I agree he is doing a darn good job! It is my sincerest hope that he stay in the position of Chairman of the democratic party.

We agree!

[quote]100meters wrote:
ZEB wrote:
hedo wrote:
Howard certainly alienated even his most bias supporters the other day in San Francisco.

Pelosi is starting to distance herself today…his end is near.

No! Say it isn’t so, I want to see Dean in there until the next Presidential election!

I honestly feel he will end up helping to elect another republican President.

She was “stunned” I guess at Dean’s wildly radical statement that the GOP is “pretty much a white christian party”

note: 82% of repubs are white christians.

Dear Nancy Pelosi: Please try to keep mouth shut.[/quote]

82% of the country is Christian. That’s a large voting block.

Many of us don’t feel guilty about being white and christian, we are what we are. Dean doesn’t seem to feel the same way.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
100meters,

“…but so far he’s doing a damn fine job—it’s also real fun watching the right fake fume and fuss over true statements.”

Except that he is not.
[/quote]
well if raising money, and awareness for party canidates is your job, and energizing the base is your job, he’s doing much better than his predeccesor

I feel the opposite, the leaders need a good kick in the ass. The sooner they stop pandering the better. There’s a well established double standard in the media that Rethugs can say anything they want about dems, Do I care if Dean is breaking this standard by saying true things? Nope. Of course as the money goes he’s doubling the income—I’m pretty sure that’s good?

He’s talking about the establishment, as he already explained. (and of course as you know.)

Bike path vs. Alchohol? so what?

[quote]hedo wrote:
100meters wrote:
ZEB wrote:
hedo wrote:
Howard certainly alienated even his most bias supporters the other day in San Francisco.

Pelosi is starting to distance herself today…his end is near.

No! Say it isn’t so, I want to see Dean in there until the next Presidential election!

I honestly feel he will end up helping to elect another republican President.

She was “stunned” I guess at Dean’s wildly radical statement that the GOP is “pretty much a white christian party”

note: 82% of repubs are white christians.

Dear Nancy Pelosi: Please try to keep mouth shut.

82% of the country is Christian. That’s a large voting block.

Many of us don’t feel guilty about being white and christian, we are what we are. Dean doesn’t seem to feel the same way.

[/quote]

Well, Ok, except guilt obviously wasn’t the point.

[quote]100meters wrote:
hedo wrote:
100meters wrote:
ZEB wrote:
hedo wrote:
Howard certainly alienated even his most bias supporters the other day in San Francisco.

Pelosi is starting to distance herself today…his end is near.

No! Say it isn’t so, I want to see Dean in there until the next Presidential election!

I honestly feel he will end up helping to elect another republican President.

She was “stunned” I guess at Dean’s wildly radical statement that the GOP is “pretty much a white christian party”

note: 82% of repubs are white christians.

Dear Nancy Pelosi: Please try to keep mouth shut.

82% of the country is Christian. That’s a large voting block.

Many of us don’t feel guilty about being white and christian, we are what we are. Dean doesn’t seem to feel the same way.

Well, Ok, except guilt obviously wasn’t the point.[/quote]

Well then what was his point. Read some of his other comments. Guilt is a major platform of the radical left.

100meters,

“well if raising money, and awareness for party canidates is your job, and energizing the base is your job, he’s doing much better than his predeccesor”

The base is already energized - the weakness of the Democratic Party is in moderate, mainstream America. The only thing Dean can do is try and make sure the fringe doesn’t vote third party like they did in 2000 - but with every step toward the placating the fringe, he loses footing in that giant swath of red states on the 2004 electoral map. It is a losing strategy.

“I feel the opposite, the leaders need a good kick in the ass. The sooner they stop pandering the better.”

The leaders? The leaders need a good kick in the ass, but not from Dean or anyone on his side of the fence. The leaders need a centrist/populist to apply the kicking.

“There’s a well established double standard in the media that Rethugs can say anything they want about dems”

This is the most blatant lie I have ever read on these forums. Put Dean’s words into the mouth of a Republican - ie, calling Democrats evil and such - and it would be a national fiasco of Biblical proportions (pun intended). And to suggest that this double standard is perpetuated and allowed by the media - I can’t stop laughing.

“Do I care if Dean is breaking this standard by saying true things? Nope. Of course as the money goes he’s doubling the income—I’m pretty sure that’s good?”

As for his ‘true’ statements, even dyed-in-the-wool Democrats know that his brand of rhetoric is based in reckless exaggeration. Never worked an honest day in their lives? Please.

“He’s talking about the establishment, as he already explained. (and of course as you know.)”

No, I don’t - his mealy mouthed backpedaling nothwithstanding, isn’t it a bit unexplainable that Republicans can be ceaseless planners of aggressive, imperialist wars and conquest and be lazy?

“Bike path vs. Alchohol? so what?”

If you can’t see the difference, I wish you well - that’s about as dense as a dwarf star.

Hear is an article by Peggy Noonan describing Bush acting like Dean.

It’s kind of funny but it highlights how idiotic Dean sounds to just about anyone but the radical fring of the Democratic party.

By Peggy Noonan

President Bush is introduced at a great gathering in Topeka, Kan. It is the evening of June 9, 2005. Ruffles and flourishes, “Hail to the Chief,” hearty applause from a packed ballroom. Mr. Bush walks to the podium and delivers the following address.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. I want to speak this evening about how I see the political landscape. Let me jump right in. The struggle between the Republican Party and the Democratic Party is a struggle between good and evil–and we’re the good. I hate Democrats. Let’s face it, they have never made an honest living in their lives. Who are they, really, but people who are intent on abusing power, destroying the United States Senate and undermining our Constitution? They have no shame.
But why would they? They have never been acquainted with the truth. You ever been to a Democratic fundraiser? They all look the same. They all behave the same. They have a dictatorship, and suffer from zeal so extreme they think they have a direct line to heaven. But what would you expect when you have a far left extremist base? We cannot afford more of their leadership. I call on you to help me defeat them!"

Imagine Mr. Bush saying those things, and the crowd roaring with lusty delight. Imagine John McCain saying them for that matter, or any other likely Republican candidate for president, or Ken Mehlman, the head of the Republican National Committee.
Can you imagine them talking this way? Me neither. Because they wouldn’t.

Messrs. Bush, McCain, et al., would find talk like that to be extreme, damaging, desperate. They would understand it would tend to add a new level of hysteria to political discourse, and that’s not good for the country. I think they would know such talk is unworthy in a leader, or potential leader, of a great democracy. I think they would understand that talk like that is destructive to the ties that bind–and to the speaker’s political prospects.

Why don’t Hillary Clinton and Howard Dean know this? And what does it mean that they do not know it?
For as you know, the color-coded phrases in the “Bush speech” above come from speeches and statements given by Sen. Clinton and Democratic chairman Dean recently. (Mrs. Clinton’s comments are in green and Mr. Dean’s in purple, and I changed “right” to “left.”)

Clinton is likely the next Democratic nominee for president. Mr. Dean is the head of the Democratic Party. They are important and powerful. They may one day run the country. It is disturbing that they speak as they do.

How do people who are not part of the Democratic base react to their statements? I think something like this: What’s wrong with these people? Don’t they understand they lower things with their name calling and bitter language? If this is how they feel free to present themselves in public, what will they do and say in private if they ever run the country?

If Mr. Bush ever spoke this way, most Republicans would feel embarrassment. I would be among the legions who would denounce his statement. Democrats are half the country; it is offensive to label them as hateful, it’s wrong. Even though we’re torn by disagreements, there is an old and unspoken tradition that we’re all in this together, we’re all citizens together. It is destructive to act against this tradition.

One assumes all the media, especially the MSM, would treat the speech as if it were an epochal event in the Bush presidency, and the beginning of the end. They would say he was unleashing the dark forces of division; they would label his statement as manipulative, malevolent, immature.

And they’d be right.

There is a tradition of political generosity that prevails among the normal people of America, a certain live-and-let-live-ness. That is why Little League games don’t break out in fistfights, at least over politics. You don’t shun people in the neighborhood because they’re Democrats, and you don’t inform the Republican in the next cubicle that he is evil, lazy and racist. That just doesn’t play in America. There are breaches, exceptions, incidents. We are not angels. But by and large even though we disagree with each other, and even if we come to dislike each other, we maintain, for reasons both moral and practical, decorum. Civility. We keep a lid on it. We don’t lower it to the level of invective. We don’t by nature seek to divide.
When you have been in Washington long enough and have become consumed by your place in the political struggle, you can lose sight of the American arrangement. You can become harsh and shrill. You can become the sort of person who would start the fight at the Little League game. You can become–how might a columnist, as opposed to a political leader, put it?–a jackass. But not a funny one, a destructive one, the type that can knock down the barn it took the farmer years to build.

The comportment of Hillary Clinton and Howard Dean is actually not worthy of America. Their statements suggest they are in no way equal to the country they seek to lead. And something tells me that sooner or later America is going to tell them. But in a generous, mature and fair-minded way.

Ms. Noonan is a contributing editor of The Wall Street Journal and author of “A Heart, a Cross, and a Flag” (Wall Street Journal Books/Simon & Schuster)

She’s right most Republicans would be offended if our party leaders acted like Dean…that’s the difference.

Hate to disagree with lumpy.

Wait, I love it!!!

Dean’s Zeal Is Looking Like Zealotry, Some Fear
Tone down the rhetoric, Democrats tell their leader after his recent inflammatory remarks.
By Richard Simon
Times Staff Writer

June 10, 2005

WASHINGTON ? When Howard Dean was chosen to head their party, Democrats looked forward to the benefits of his bristling energy and zest for political combat.

But at a private meeting Thursday on Capitol Hill, a number of worried Senate Democrats warned Dean that he had been going overboard and needed to choose his words more carefully.

The former Vermont governor and unsuccessful presidential candidate recently referred to the GOP as “pretty much a white, Christian party” and declared that a lot of Republicans have “never made an honest living in their lives.”

Sen. Russell D. Feingold (D-Wis.) said that at the Capitol Hill meeting, “there couldn’t be any doubt that there was some concern, even by Dean himself,” about how his comments had been received.

The meeting had been scheduled to discuss party strategy before Dean’s controversial comments.

Also Thursday, two Democrats seen as rising stars ? Rep. Harold Ford of Tennessee and Virginia Gov. Mark R. Warner ? made a point of distancing themselves from Dean’s remarks.

Ford, who plans a Senate run next year, said on the Don Imus radio show that if Dean could not “temper his comments, it may get to the point where the party may need to look elsewhere for leadership, because he does not speak for me.”

Ford later told The Times that Dean was “leading us in a direction that makes it difficult to win?. His leadership right now is not serving any of us very well.”

Warner, who has been mentioned as a possible 2008 presidential candidate, said Dean was using “not the kind of tone that I would use, not the kind of tone a lot of the Democratic governors in mostly Republican states are using to get elected or to govern.” Warner made his comments at a luncheon at The Times’ Washington bureau.

After the meeting on Capitol Hill, Senate Democrats expressed continuing support for Dean, who was elected chairman of the Democratic National Committee in February.

“Every single one of us has stuck our foot in our mouths at one point in our public careers, and we’ve paid for it the next day,” said Sen. Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.).

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-San Francisco) said that although she didn’t agree with Dean’s recent comments, she considered him an effective party chairman.

“That is why the Republicans are so relentlessly going after him,” she said.

The flap demonstrates Democrats’ conflict over how sharply party leaders should express themselves after the party’s 2004 election losses.

“We really don’t have a message right now,” Ford lamented.

Dean is no stranger to controversy.

His strong opposition to the Iraq war helped him emerge as the initial front-runner in the race for the 2004 Democratic presidential nomination, but his candidacy faded after a series of verbal gaffes.

He was especially hurt by his overheated concession speech after finishing third in the Iowa caucuses.

When Dean sought the party chairmanship, he attracted support with speeches that fiercely attacked President Bush and the Republican Party. He has continued such pugnacity since becoming chairman, but it was his recent remarks that heightened concern among Democrats.

Dean, in a speech Monday in San Francisco, said Republicans were “not very friendly to different kinds of people. They are a pretty monolithic party?. It’s pretty much a white, Christian party.”

A recent CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll found that 82% of Republicans identified themselves as white Christians. For Democrats, the figure was 57%. Given those findings, some people defended Dean’s comment. But many criticized it as divisive.

Christian Coalition President Roberta Combs said in a statement: “Howard Dean, when he was elected chairman, promised to reach out to all the states that voted for President Bush in last year’s election. Disparaging Christians is not the smartest way to do this.”

Democrats who believed they lost votes last year on values-related issues worried that Dean’s comments would give Republicans an opening to portray Democrats as ? as one congressional Democratic aide put it ? a “godless party.”

That aide, who requested anonymity, also said Dean’s comment that a lot of Republicans “never made an honest living in their lives,” which Dean made in a speech in Washington last week, could hurt Democratic efforts to win support from middle-class Republicans.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said on her way into the Capitol Hill meeting with Dean that he “ought to stick to organization, raising funds and supporting Democrats, rather than creating friction and splitting the party.” She added that she would advise Dean to “cool it.”

A Feinstein spokesman said after the meeting that the senator had expressed her concerns to Dean, but in a more diplomatic way.

Among those who expressed their concerns to Dean at the meeting were Democrats from states carried by President Bush.

Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.), up for reelection next year, said that he cautioned Dean “not to get caught up in the Washington game of political polarization.”

Dean’s response was, “Thank you,” Nelson said.

Dean declined to speak with reporters after the meeting. While walking away briskly, he said he planned to be “focusing on the future.”

Political analysts agreed that Dean’s recent comments could hurt Democrats. “Every time he makes an outrageous remark, other Democratic leaders have to answer questions about it,” said John J. Pitney Jr., a political scientist at Claremont McKenna College. "So instead of talking about their best issues, they’re talking about their loose cannon.

“He’s throwing them off message.”

Don Kettl, a University of Pennsylvania political scientist, added: “The Democrats wanted Dean in part because he showed how to raise huge sums of money on the Internet ? and because he was a live wire who could energize the party. But high-current wires can sometimes cause painful shocks too.”

Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. (D-Del.) said he didn’t think Dean’s comments were helpful to the party. But he noted, as did a number of other Democratic senators, that Dean was still new to his job as chairman and had been accustomed to speaking his mind as a governor and presidential candidate.

“This is a learning process,” he said. If Dean were to continue to make the sort of comments he has made recently, Biden said, “he might find himself in a real difficult situation. But I think you’ll see him be a little more careful in how he phrases things. Do I think this has caused long-term damage for the Democratic Party? No. If it becomes the steady diet for the next three years? Yeah.”

Yes, lumpy. It’s sounds like your party loves him!!!

I’m rooting for dean, dean, dean!!!

AAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

JeffR

P.S. It’s just another example of lumpy being pathologically unable to criticise his beloved party!!!

JeffR:

I think you should lighten up on the demorats a bit. After all they have been through quite a lot.

They have been the minority in both houses of congress for a while now. They just dumped two Presidential elections in a row. The next couple of Supreme court justices will be hand picked by the most conservative President in many years.

I mean, think about it…they have Dean as Chairman. And in a couple of years they will probably have Gore, Kerry, Hillary and a few other left wingers fighting it out in blood bath fashion for the parties nomination.

Yea…take it easy on them man.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
100meters,

“well if raising money, and awareness for party canidates is your job, and energizing the base is your job, he’s doing much better than his predeccesor”

The base is already energized - the weakness of the Democratic Party is in moderate, mainstream America. The only thing Dean can do is try and make sure the fringe doesn’t vote third party like they did in 2000 - but with every step toward the placating the fringe, he loses footing in that giant swath of red states on the 2004 electoral map. It is a losing strategy.
[/quote]
Actually that’s what they normally do, not working so well is it? And it’s what makes the base so angry, dems afraid to be dems–Dean is not–perfect.

We are centrist, representing the majority on most issues, hence we’re also populist—the trick is informing voters, not letting the right co-opt fake populist language, presenting a clear alternative (not GOPlite), etc.

Uhmmm yeah. This one is so obvious, I won’t even bother.

Rhetoric? Dyed in the wool dems were writhing in ecstacy at Deans comments.

Laziness leads to some pretty bad planning–see botched war in Iraq and latest leaked memo for details.

[quote]

“Bike path vs. Alchohol? so what?”

If you can’t see the difference, I wish you well - that’s about as dense as a dwarf star.[/quote]

It’s a difference allright obviously one would prefer a real christian vs. a drug using alchoholic fake born again who doesn’t attend church, but pretends to be religous to garner votes.

[quote]100meters wrote:
It’s a difference allright obviously one would prefer a real christian vs. a drug using alchoholic fake born again who doesn’t attend church, but pretends to be religous to garner votes.[/quote]

I like it when the democrats talk about their alternative plans for Social Security, Iraq, and the other issues of the day…oh wait…they don’t have alternative plans. All they do is run the President and his party into the ground…just like you did above (next time you throw around the charges I want to see some proof-Moore could have written that and no one but the freaky far left respects him).

You won’t win elections that way…you do know this right?

Please continue…

The Dems have not been a centrist party since Kennedy.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Never forget, this is Dean - the man who changed denominations of Christian faith over a bike path.
[/quote]

I never heard this story. Can someone elaborate?

[quote]hedo wrote:
The Dems have not been a centrist party since Kennedy. [/quote]

That’s why they are continuing to lose elections!