Opeth: “What kind of person doesn’t believe that abortion is murder?”
Magick: “The kind that doesn’t believe that a first-trimester fetus, which is little more than a collection of cells, constitutes a human being.”
There. Do we all understand each other now?
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Actually, not every country permits abortion. Many countries ban it altogether, and while most will allow exceptions, some do not. In Malta, for example, nobody may have an abortion for any reason, not even to save the life of the mother.
The following are, by the standards of the antiabortion movement, the most enlightened societies of the world, which value the life of the unborn more than we do in the United States, to the degree that thwy make it a criminal offense to ever take its life. I’m sure these societies have much about them that we can and should emulate.
Afghanistan
Andorra
Angola
Antigua & Barbuda
Bangladesh
Bhutan
Brazil
Brunei Darussalam
Central African Rep.
Chile
Congo
CÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?´te d’Ivoire
Dem. Rep. of Congo
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Egypt
El Salvador
Gabon
Guatemala Guinea-Bissau
Haiti
Honduras
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Ireland
Kiribati
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Libya
Madagascar
Malawi
Mali
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritania Mauritius
Mexico
Micronesia
Myanmar
Nicaragua
Nigeria
Oman
Palau
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paraguay
Philippines
San Marino
Sao Tome & Principe
Senegal
Soloman Islands
Somalia
South Sudan
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Suriname Syria
Tanzania Timor-Leste
Tonga
Tuvalu
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
Venezuela
West Bank & Gaza Strip
Yemen[/quote]
I don’t see the idea of outlawing abortion as something that is even sustainable as an ethic for the human race. We are talking Cosmopolitan Ethics, if you entertain the proposition of forcing every pregnant woman to give birth, you still need to feed, clothe, educate and figure out a way to parent these kids, you will see you cannot get away with it for long as there will eventually be food and medical shortages.
The way I see it, forcing birth doesn’t pass Kant’s categorical imperative, because if everyone acted in such a way, we wouldn’t be able to feed ourselves. Try it, entertain the Maxim of forcing every woman to give birth and tell me how you see the world in 25, 50, 100 years? If we are still around as a human race, we might all be lucky enough to live in the equivalent of a Calcutta slum if things go perfectly, so it fails the categorical imperative. For me I don’t even see how forcing women to give birth, in itself passes the categorical imperative, but this is just one rule of ethics.
We have plenty of weak people around that need protecting, or simple food right this moment. It’s not that I don’t have sympathy, I wish every potential person could have a shot at life, love, happiness. We have a lot of other shit to take care of, like little girls and boys being born and sold into lives of prostitution in countries we westerners go to for vacation to exploit. These are innocents too right? Least of your brothers and all that? These are the people I have sympathy for, you have no idea the level of rage I felt when I saw little boys and girls being peddled off a bus in Pattaya to old European men, and former Sailors and shit.
Or, how about the kid with downs who was mentioned who blew himself up on a bus? There are plenty of evils for us to deal with right now, which are more important that spending our energies to control women’s bodies. Let them practice free will, if there is a God, I’m sure he will have his judgements and he will free you religious folk of such harlots when you go to heaven, and they can hang out with me for eternity in hell.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:
What human being with a conscience would say that abortion is not murder? What kind of monsters could defend and even perform such procedures? What kind of Supreme Court Justice scum could say that a woman has a “right” to have such a thing done to her child? Yet this is the law of the land. And not only of this land, but all around the world.
[/quote]
One who believes that an unborn fetus, especially one in the first trimester when it’s really nothing more than a collection of cells, is not a human being.
[/quote]
You are a collection of cell, so is every other living organism.
The collection of cells just happens to be a human being. I challenge you to present evidence to the contrary.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Actually, not every country permits abortion. Many countries ban it altogether, and while most will allow exceptions, some do not. In Malta, for example, nobody may have an abortion for any reason, not even to save the life of the mother.
The following are, by the standards of the antiabortion movement, the most enlightened societies of the world, which value the life of the unborn more than we do in the United States, to the degree that thwy make it a criminal offense to ever take its life. I’m sure these societies have much about them that we can and should emulate.
Afghanistan
Andorra
Angola
Antigua & Barbuda
Bangladesh
Bhutan
Brazil
Brunei Darussalam
Central African Rep.
Chile
Congo
CÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?´te d’Ivoire
Dem. Rep. of Congo
Dominica
Dominican Republic
Egypt
El Salvador
Gabon
Guatemala Guinea-Bissau
Haiti
Honduras
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Ireland
Kiribati
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Libya
Madagascar
Malawi
Mali
Malta
Marshall Islands
Mauritania Mauritius
Mexico
Micronesia
Myanmar
Nicaragua
Nigeria
Oman
Palau
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paraguay
Philippines
San Marino
Sao Tome & Principe
Senegal
Soloman Islands
Somalia
South Sudan
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Suriname Syria
Tanzania Timor-Leste
Tonga
Tuvalu
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
Venezuela
West Bank & Gaza Strip
Yemen[/quote]
I don’t see the idea of outlawing abortion as something that is even sustainable as an ethic for the human race. We are talking Cosmopolitan Ethics, if you entertain the proposition of forcing every pregnant woman to give birth, you still need to feed, clothe, educate and figure out a way to parent these kids, you will see you cannot get away with it for long as there will eventually be food and medical shortages.
The way I see it, forcing birth doesn’t pass Kant’s categorical imperative, because if everyone acted in such a way, we wouldn’t be able to feed ourselves. Try it, entertain the Maxim of forcing every woman to give birth and tell me how you see the world in 25, 50, 100 years? If we are still around as a human race, we might all be lucky enough to live in the equivalent of a Calcutta slum if things go perfectly, so it fails the categorical imperative. For me I don’t even see how forcing women to give birth, in itself passes the categorical imperative, but this is just one rule of ethics.
We have plenty of weak people around that need protecting, or simple food right this moment. It’s not that I don’t have sympathy, I wish every potential person could have a shot at life, love, happiness. We have a lot of other shit to take care of, like little girls and boys being born and sold into lives of prostitution in countries we westerners go to for vacation to exploit. These are innocents too right? Least of your brothers and all that? These are the people I have sympathy for, you have no idea the level of rage I felt when I saw little boys and girls being peddled off a bus in Pattaya to old European men, and former Sailors and shit.
Or, how about the kid with downs who was mentioned who blew himself up on a bus? There are plenty of evils for us to deal with right now, which are more important that spending our energies to control women’s bodies. Let them practice free will, if there is a God, I’m sure he will have his judgements and he will free you religious folk of such harlots when you go to heaven, and they can hang out with me for eternity in hell. [/quote]
Forcing birth? Oh my…lol
Kant is rolling in his grave right now.
[quote]opeth7opeth wrote:
[quote]magick wrote:
Yes?[/quote]
Let’s try this again:
One who believes that an unborn fetus…is not a human being?
You responded, “Yes?”
Okay, now. One who believes that an unborn fetus IS WHAT?
[/quote]
Um…A lizard?
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Opeth: “What kind of person doesn’t believe that abortion is murder?”
Magick: “The kind that doesn’t believe that a first-trimester fetus, which is little more than a collection of cells, constitutes a human being.”
There. Do we all understand each other now?[/quote]
no
saying a fetus is an UNBORN human is correct . Just a a sperm from a man is a human sperm
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
The merit of a society is measured by how it treats the weakest and those without a voice.
I can think of none more vulnerable than an unborn child.[/quote]
The best subjective post as of yet
[quote]pushharder wrote:
You are gullible if you’ve been led to believe a fetus is not a human being.
[/quote]
So a fetus in its first trimester is a human being?
And I wouldn’t mind it if you said that I was wrong; but gullible is another word entirety.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
The merit of a society is measured by how it treats the weakest and those without a voice.
I can think of none more vulnerable than an unborn child.[/quote]
it’s like shooting fish in a barrel , I just love the pro life party [/quote]
What’s that got to do with abortion? Oh, nothing, that’s right. When you don’t have a viable argument, introduce strawmen.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
You are gullible if you’ve been led to believe a fetus is not a human being.
[/quote]
So a fetus in its first trimester is a human being?
And I wouldn’t mind it if you said that I was wrong; but gullible is another word entirety.[/quote]
You’re wrong. What species of animal do you think the said ‘clump of cells’ is in the first trimester?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
The merit of a society is measured by how it treats the weakest and those without a voice.
I can think of none more vulnerable than an unborn child.[/quote]
it’s like shooting fish in a barrel , I just love the pro life party [/quote]
What’s that got to do with abortion? Oh, nothing, that’s right. When you don’t have a viable argument, introduce strawmen.[/quote]
nothing , it just addresses the double standard of those claiming to be altruistic on one sliver of life
Magick, you are fighting an uphill battle if you are going to try to prove that a living human fetus is either not human or not living. Is it an adult? No. Is it exactly the same as a child? Technically, no, any more than a baby chick three days before it hatches from the egg is exactly the same as the same chick three days after hatching. You may decide against counting a chicken before it hatches, but your objection does not invalidate the fact that it is a living individual of the species Gallus domesticus.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Correct.
And you can offer absolutely nothing to refute that.
[/quote]
you’re right. I can’t. I gave it thought for most of the night and morning today and I can’t come up with any reasonable explanation why abortion should be allowed without accepting the reality that the fetus’s right is not relevant.
That + this comic (Subjective life - Adam4d.com) has made me seriously question why I believe in legalizing abortion, and I plan on doing more research into the pro-abortion camp and seeing why they believe in it and decide something.
Thus,
[quote]
That doesn’t matter to the Magick’s of this world. Any straw that can be grasped at…will. No matter how tenuous. No matter how unscientific. No matter how illogical.
It’s sheer desperation.[/quote]
I find this incredibly painful. DO NOT lump me with mindless idiots.
[quote]magick wrote:
you’re right. I can’t. I gave it thought for most of the night and morning today and I can’t come up with any reasonable explanation why abortion should be allowed without accepting the reality that the fetus’s right is not relevant.
[quote]
The pro-life movement is organized, persuasive, and they have a sophisticated playbook. E.g.:
http://www.prolifetraining.com/fiveminute1.asp
You need to read up on it before you walk into a discussion like this with opposing views or you will get stepped on very quickly. Or, you might just decide that they have the correct view and change your mind. Either way, Varq’s previous post was correct.
I knew the basics of the pro-abortion argument and its basis on science, but it’s the comic that I linked that made me have second thoughts.
I wanted to do more research on the laws to see if there’s any finer details that were missed out (since there always are finer details left out), but haven’t had the time.