Although it’s not exactly a representative sample, the students on my course were pathetically lazy. So much so, I graduated student of the year for a 2:1. Only 2 other students got a 2:1 - by the skin of their teeth - whilst the rest were happy to laze around and get 2:2’s or even 3rds.
[/quote]
Where the hell did you go to uni? That was certainly not my experience…
A lot of companies will just automatically throw grad’s CVs in the bin if they don’t at least have a 2.1 at the moment.[/quote]
Glasgow Uni. I entirely agree that a 2:2 is pretty much worthless, didn’t make these people care anymore though.
With the Scottish Government has been funding higher education everyone thinks Uni is mandatory + students family entertaining the notion that a degree (general 3 year) or even a 3rd class is some form of achievement means that a fair number of students believe by reaching those mediocre levels they will be rewarded.
[/quote]
Ah right. Yeah I think a lot of the better focus now comes from the rise in tuition fees. I was paying 3000 a year but the last couple of years are paying 9000. I don’t think it’s a bad thing at all, it’s good for people to question whether they should go to uni or not rather than it just being the thing to do.
I would hate it if we moved to the US system though where they essentially need to take normal loans out or do a lot of side jobs. The British way of basically having an extra tax on your earnings until you pay off the debt is good, there’s no pressure on making repayments as if you aren’t earning over a certain threshold you are paying nothing. And if you are going to university you should really be thinking you will have a more successful career because of it so it should be a no brainer to give up a small percentage of a larger total salary.
Although it’s not exactly a representative sample, the students on my course were pathetically lazy. So much so, I graduated student of the year for a 2:1. Only 2 other students got a 2:1 - by the skin of their teeth - whilst the rest were happy to laze around and get 2:2’s or even 3rds.
[/quote]
Where the hell did you go to uni? That was certainly not my experience…
A lot of companies will just automatically throw grad’s CVs in the bin if they don’t at least have a 2.1 at the moment.[/quote]
Glasgow Uni. I entirely agree that a 2:2 is pretty much worthless, didn’t make these people care anymore though.
With the Scottish Government has been funding higher education everyone thinks Uni is mandatory + students family entertaining the notion that a degree (general 3 year) or even a 3rd class is some form of achievement means that a fair number of students believe by reaching those mediocre levels they will be rewarded.
[/quote]
Ah right. Yeah I think a lot of the better focus now comes from the rise in tuition fees. I was paying 3000 a year but the last couple of years are paying 9000. I don’t think it’s a bad thing at all, it’s good for people to question whether they should go to uni or not rather than it just being the thing to do.
I would hate it if we moved to the US system though where they essentially need to take normal loans out or do a lot of side jobs. The British way of basically having an extra tax on your earnings until you pay off the debt is good, there’s no pressure on making repayments as if you aren’t earning over a certain threshold you are paying nothing. And if you are going to university you should really be thinking you will have a more successful career because of it so it should be a no brainer to give up a small percentage of a larger total salary.[/quote]
You are entirely right regarding cost of learning as a form of deterrent. TBH, if it was not free I would not have went to uni. I really should have just went for an engineering apprenticeship with Royles Royce through my grandfather/father but because I was so unsure of what I wanted to do at 17 I basically decided that taking advantage of a free honours degree was better than continuing to work a dead end job for the time being.
The loan system here truly is fantastic. I worked 1st to 3rd years and was doing OK but took full advantage of a living cost loan to ensure all my efforts went to getting a 2:1 minimum.
Although it’s not exactly a representative sample, the students on my course were pathetically lazy. So much so, I graduated student of the year for a 2:1. Only 2 other students got a 2:1 - by the skin of their teeth - whilst the rest were happy to laze around and get 2:2’s or even 3rds.
[/quote]
Where the hell did you go to uni? That was certainly not my experience…
A lot of companies will just automatically throw grad’s CVs in the bin if they don’t at least have a 2.1 at the moment.[/quote]
Glasgow Uni. I entirely agree that a 2:2 is pretty much worthless, didn’t make these people care anymore though.
With the Scottish Government has been funding higher education everyone thinks Uni is mandatory + students family entertaining the notion that a degree (general 3 year) or even a 3rd class is some form of achievement means that a fair number of students believe by reaching those mediocre levels they will be rewarded.
[/quote]
Ah right. Yeah I think a lot of the better focus now comes from the rise in tuition fees. I was paying 3000 a year but the last couple of years are paying 9000. I don’t think it’s a bad thing at all, it’s good for people to question whether they should go to uni or not rather than it just being the thing to do.
I would hate it if we moved to the US system though where they essentially need to take normal loans out or do a lot of side jobs. The British way of basically having an extra tax on your earnings until you pay off the debt is good, there’s no pressure on making repayments as if you aren’t earning over a certain threshold you are paying nothing. And if you are going to university you should really be thinking you will have a more successful career because of it so it should be a no brainer to give up a small percentage of a larger total salary.[/quote]
You are entirely right regarding cost of learning as a form of deterrent. TBH, if it was not free I would not have went to uni. I really should have just went for an engineering apprenticeship with Royles Royce through my grandfather/father but because I was so unsure of what I wanted to do at 17 I basically decided that taking advantage of a free honours degree was better than continuing to work a dead end job for the time being.
The loan system here truly is fantastic. I worked 1st to 3rd years and was doing OK but took full advantage of a living cost loan to ensure all my efforts went to getting a 2:1 minimum.
[/quote]
Agreed, even if you don’t need it you should take the full maintenance loan out. Cheapest and most stress free loan you will ever get in your life!
With the loan system it’s not even just the deterrent effect of more people choosing not to go to uni. If you know you are taking a loan out for 9000+3000 maintenance for the privilege of coming to uni it kind of puts things into perspective and probably makes students think more about what they are doing, hence more determined to work hard and make the most of it.
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
There are a lot of openings but, many are for leads/specialized personnel and the so called “entry level” jobs require anywhere from 1-3 years of industry experience (how the hell does that work?).[/quote]
I’ve asked myself this question so many times lol. Junior/entry-level positions that want 1-3 years of relevant professional experience makes no sense to me considering that the position is meant for people new to the industry lol. Say someone completed an internship every summer break since his/her freshman year and that person graduated in four years. That’s three 12 week internships. Not even a cumulative year of experience lol. If they did that every summer since graduating, then they just barely make it. Job requirement: defy time. Seems pretty damn unnecessary. I’ve even seen “internships” that specifically wanted applicants with PhDs.[/quote]
Apply anyway. Fuck what they “ask for”. That is just a line they put on a job listing to dissuade completely unqualified idiots. You can take just about ANY job and twist your daily activities into some kind of “relevant industry qualification”.
Every SINGLE job I had when I worked down south listed 5 years of off shore experience as a requirement. I was only down there for less than two… Show up and SELL THEM the product they are buying: YOU. Everything is negotiable.
[/quote]
Agreed. I usually say fuck it and apply anyway. I’ve been surprised more than once.
But see there were always these fucking tryhards who would get 4.0 or 3.9 or whatever the fuck and people acted like they were sooooo fucking smart. They’re not smart they put like 1000x as many hours in! I remember in high school me and my buddies would race with finals. Didn’t matter what grade you got, just whether you finished before the next guy.
[/quote]
I’d clarify that by “smart guy” I mean “smart enough to know when to work hard”
My best friend was in calc in HS (accelerated in our HS program) but he fizzled, burnt out and dropped out. Cause he wasn’t willing to work hard.
-Hard work is my Talent.
-I am not smart, but I never stop thinking.
-What I lack in finesse, I make up for with GRIT.
These are my personal models, to make me feel good about myself when I am around someone like you who would always get the grades I couldn’t!
would you believe that I actually knew a guy who at the age of about 22 said “I have an IQ of 160, therefore I shouldn’t have to waste my time with the pre-req’s, they should place me in the higher math levels” He wanted to be a physicist and he wasn’t even working on entering the major yet at like 22! (he was in school for a few yrs already!)
like…“oh, fuck, you have AN IQ of 160!!! shit, just give us the $40k tuition and we will hand you your degree” -said none of the advisors anywhere ever.
dumb fuck you actually have to work to get it!
Thats the caveat to a degree (as mentioned by others previously), yeas you spent the time to get the degree, but did you have to WORK for it? some don’t(smart), some do(like I feel I did, since I’m not especially bright lol).[/quote]
A genius IQ doesn’t necessarily equate to strong realistic reasoning power lol. Especially when that number is inflated.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
A friend of mine got a double major in Math and Computer Science in two years, taking, at times, 50 credit hours simultaneously. My advisor, and the dean, wouldn’t let me exceed 20. It didn’t stop me from learning on my own, but it did piss me off quite a bit.
[/quote]
WTF?! My last school wouldn’t even let me go over 18 credit hour crap.
[quote]carbiduis wrote:
A lot of good advice here, I’d just like to say the following;
Getting a bachelors degree in an engineering field is a sure way of having a steady career with liveable/comfortable pay AT THE LEAST.
[/quote]So is going through an apprenticeship and learning a trade[quote]
My dad has a bachelors in business and he started as a buyer in 1980 at a hard drive company. He has been a program manager for the past 15-20 years, managing people with PhD’s and masters in engineering/physics etc. He has hit the “ceiling” of pay for his degree, they will not promote him to director almost for the simple fact that he does not have a masters/phD in engineering etc. And I can just about guarantee that he would not be where he is if it weren’t for that piece of paper.
[/quote]What stopped him from getting his masters? There are plenty of programs that allow you to work full time and get a masters…[quote]
But you see, the experience IS important and it HAS paid off for him. What I am getting at, is I think it’s still one of the safest/realistic approaches to get a engineering degree etc. AND acquire experience. [/quote]You are dismissing the five years of school that professional tradesmen go through [quote] Sure the guy who is 25 with 6 yrs experience may be ahead of the guy who is fresh-out with his engineering degree/ zero experience. But what about 5-10-15 years later? [/quote]In MY jurisdiction, it amounts to $275,000.00 of income over five years that the tradesman will have already earned while acquiring ZERO student loan debt…[quote]At some point you’ll have a guy with 10-15 years experience AND a great degree vs. a guy with 15-20 yrs experience WITHOUT a degree[/quote]But a journeyman card that allows him to work anywhere in the country[quote]. At this point the difference in experience isn’t as substantial. YES universities and higher education is an industry, it has to be to exist. But there is value in learning 4 levels of calculus, classic/modern physics, strength of materials and dynamics etc.[/quote]I learned and regularly apply vector trigonometry and calculus in my apprenticeship. As well as physics, electrical theory, applied electronics, load calculations, etc… [quote] If not for what you actually learned, then for LEARNING HOW TO LEARN. Yes I agree that it comes down to the ability of the individual to APPLY it. I would also reiterate that getting a degree is a filtering process, many enter, few complete their engineering degree and those who do have proven at least something (ability to show up with a completed assignment on time/sober…over, and over, and over for 4+ yrs).[/quote]My class started with over 120 people and only 46 graduated - we weeded them out[quote]
A smart guy with no degree and experience is very useful, a smart guy WITH a degree AND experience is MORE useful, I would argue.[/quote]
A smart guy with an expertise based on education AND experience is far more useful than someone with just experience or just a degree. When the shit goes down, and the UPS batteries are depleting and the generator won’t start, who is more valuable? The engineer who “designed” it and can point to start wires on the drawing? Or the trade professional who installed it, knows EXACTLY where the start circuit wires are landed in the control cabinet and has a Fluke meter in his hand? Who do you think will get that Gennie started first? The customer will lose a hundred thousand dollars a minute those servers are down… You have four minutes left on your batteries! Who’s more “useful”?
For the record, I’ve BEEN in that exact situation, had less than ten minutes of battery life to troubleshoot and get power to those racks and I did it in seven and half minutes. The engineers in the building were just shitting their pants and didn’t want to help by closing the main switch, so once I fixed the generator, I had to run back in the building to manually transfer the load. Cost me about a minute.
When you are an engineer or what I call “overhead”, you are never as valuable as someone who actually PRODUCES SOMETHING. When times are tough, overhead gets cut, but they will ALWAYS need someone to climb that pole.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
So is going through an apprenticeship and learning a trade[/quote]
with your choice of where* in the country you would like to work? Are unions required? What about “right to work” states? I know there are at least some stipulations. My best friend is a pipefitter and has 7 yrs of schooling to complete that isn’t exactly free. He also says that he doesn’t want to continue doing that type of work past 35-40 (his choice/words). He made $100k last year (often working 60hr weeks) in journeyman wages even though he is only an apprentice (a lot of the other apprentices really don’t like him). And I believe after talking to him, his salary will not increase much/any. I agree a trade is a good way of going for a younger guy, but once arthritis etc. starts setting inâ?¦
My friends roommate learned a trade. He is a welder making $17/hr. Not everybody is out there making a killing in the trades.
Some of my college classmates were in their 30’s-40’s and even 50’s, I wonder why they were there getting their engineering degree…
A masters business agree wouldn’t hold nearly the value of a masters in Engineering at his company, plus he got something much more valuable/applicable than a masters. He went through Six Sigma training and has a brown belt in it. He applied this to create a process at his company (this is when he would put in 6/7 day weeks) that has been used for the past 15-20 yrs. This process has saved the company money while making higher quality products. This is a fortune 500 company that I am pretty sure is the biggest company in the industry and had acquired one of their biggest competitors around 5yrs ago.
Is that schooling free?
This is too good to be true. So you’re guaranteeing that anyone (not just you) who follows this path WOULD make that money? I don’t get it, would this tradesman have gone to school? â?¦and that schooling is free?
[quote]But a journeyman card that allows him to work anywhere in the country[/quote].
how do the unions play into this? What about “right to work” states? would they still pull in that kind of money?
â?¦ thats good
thats a relatively high graduation rate, honestly. I’d also argue that the trades attract a certain type of person.
[quote]
A smart guy with an expertise based on education AND experience is far more useful than someone with just experience or just a degree. When the shit goes down, and the UPS batteries are depleting and the generator won’t start, who is more valuable? The engineer who “designed” it and can point to start wires on the drawing? Or the trade professional who installed it, knows EXACTLY where the start circuit wires are landed in the control cabinet and has a Fluke meter in his hand? Who do you think will get that Gennie started first? The customer will lose a hundred thousand dollars a minute those servers are down… You have four minutes left on your batteries! Who’s more “useful”?
For the record, I’ve BEEN in that exact situation, had less than ten minutes of battery life to troubleshoot and get power to those racks and I did it in seven and half minutes. The engineers in the building were just shitting their pants and didn’t want to help by closing the main switch, so once I fixed the generator, I had to run back in the building to manually transfer the load. Cost me about a minute.
When you are an engineer or what I call “overhead”, you are never as valuable as someone who actually PRODUCES SOMETHING. When times are tough, overhead gets cut, but they will ALWAYS need someone to climb that pole.[/quote]
uhh, maybe in your line of work/industry, but there are plenty of engineers who “produce” in a number of ways, even though there isn’t any dirt in their fingernails. Its pretty easy to pick apart someones existing work, it will always be this way.
TBH I really didn’t like any of my college classmates. And I really don’t have a high opinion of a lot of my Engineer co-workers. I was completely aware of the mentality of a young engineer that everybody hates, arrogant, naive etc. I never wanted to be that guy so I always ask a lot of questions and absorb feedback from all angles (customers, guys in the shop, more experienced engineers etc) So I really can’t sit here and defend all engineers.
What I am going to defend is myself and any other engineer who HAS perspective, who HAS gotten their hands dirty. Someone who can relate to guys in the shop and talk to them without condescending and actually take advice from them. I still feel the most productive/dangerous guy is the one who has a solid educational background (ABET Engineering degree etc) and who can relate it to the real world and apply it.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
So is going through an apprenticeship and learning a trade[/quote]
with your choice of where* in the country you would like to work? Are unions required? What about “right to work” states? I know there are at least some stipulations.
[/quote]I am indeed referring to union work. I work out of Local 26, Washington DC’s jurisdiction. It covers DC, Northern VA and a few counties in MD. The scale here is 42 an hour. In other cities like NY, San Fran, LA, the scale is higher. VA is a “right to work” state and that’s where I work, as a union electrician. There are no stipulations with that, you can either work union or not. Since I am union, I work union. [quote]
My best friend is a pipefitter and has 7 yrs of schooling to complete that isn’t exactly free. He also says that he doesn’t want to continue doing that type of work past 35-40 (his choice/words). He made $100k last year (often working 60hr weeks) in journeyman wages even though he is only an apprentice (a lot of the other apprentices really don’t like him). And I believe after talking to him, his salary will not increase much/any. I agree a trade is a good way of going for a younger guy, but once arthritis etc. starts setting inÃ??Ã?¢?Ã??Ã?¦ [/quote]He’s probably working non union. Shitty wage and paying for school…[quote]
My friends roommate learned a trade. He is a welder making $17/hr. Not everybody is out there making a killing in the trades. [/quote]Tell him to go down to Louisiana and work offshore - he’ll make over 150K working six months out of the year. If people want to stay in Bumfuck-town, USA and complain about a low wage, that’s on them.[quote]
Some of my college classmates were in their 30’s-40’s and even 50’s, I wonder why they were there getting their engineering degree…
A masters business agree wouldn’t hold nearly the value of a masters in Engineering at his company, plus he got something much more valuable/applicable than a masters. He went through Six Sigma training and has a brown belt in it. He applied this to create a process at his company (this is when he would put in 6/7 day weeks) that has been used for the past 15-20 yrs. This process has saved the company money while making higher quality products. This is a fortune 500 company that I am pretty sure is the biggest company in the industry and had acquired one of their biggest competitors around 5yrs ago.
Is that schooling free?
[/quote] YES [quote]
This is too good to be true. [/quote]No, it’s not - that’s the math. [quote]So you’re guaranteeing that anyone (not just you) who follows this path WOULD make that money? [/quote] Yes. They might make more if they get on a over time job - that figure is base on just 40 a week[quote]I don’t get it, would this tradesman have gone to school? [/quote] you go to school AAAAND work. It’s an apprenticeship. Classroom hours, on the job training hours. [quote] Ã??Ã?¢?Ã??Ã?¦and that schooling is free? [/quote]YES, it’s FREEEEEEEEE [quote]
[quote]But a journeyman card that allows him to work anywhere in the country[/quote].
how do the unions play into this? What about “right to work” states? would they still pull in that kind of money?
[/quote]You have the freedom to work where you want. There are plenty of union jobs in right to work states. I work in VA. It’s not a big deal. You get paid what the agreement says you get paid when you work for a union contractor. Period. [quote]
�¢?�¦ thats good
thats a relatively high graduation rate, honestly. I’d also argue that the trades attract a certain type of person. [/quote]And what type of person is that?[quote]
If by “dangerous” you mean designing and sending out stamped approved drawings of a system that has the ability to close two different sources (a generator and switchboard) together onto a common bus in bypass cabinet, then I agree with you - engineers can be VERY “dangerous”. Especially in a make before you break design. That scenario tends to cause explosions and life threatening burns to the electrician throwing the switch. Guess we are lucky that there are non-degree having smart people who catch that shit before an ABET degree carrying engineer kills someone. (yes, a real scenario from last year)
For the record, I catch shit like that all the time. I’ve had equipment blow up in my face during commissioning. Generally, if a union electrician put it together and it blows up, it’s a design issue or manufacturing defect. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve CAUGHT those issues before giving it the smoke test because I don’t assume the design is worth a shit - I test it first, draw out the circuits, calculate the ampacity, votage, inductive reactance/capacitance/resistance across each of the major components and then measure with a calibrated meter to see if it holds true. Basically, I re-engineer it… But what the fuck do I know…
Haven’t gotten close to reading through this, but I think alot of it boils down to college is great. If you do something worth while. I went to an expensive private school. Every night/weekend all of the jackasses went out to the bars/partied/etc. I usually had to work/do a project/otherwise not going out and getting drunk.
Graduated with two degrees (both that are in demand, something the arts majors never could understand). Surprise, surprise, I started a job one week after graduation. A job that is an entry level job (lots of hours, away from home) that pays very well for my age. See people a few years older than me moving into better jobs constantly. It can be done, you just have to plan ahead alittle bit.
Also, just throwing it out, the company I work for, as well as pretty much every other company in the industry, are absolutely begging for people to work. Not much in the way of requirements. Pass a physical, get a CDL, boom, you’re in. First year guys typically make around 80k. Tell someone this, and they have 1,000 reasons they won’t work that job (too many hours, away from home, too dirty, etc).
Ruffles my feathers to hear someone my age complaining, “Boohoo, there’s no work, boohoo”. No, the work is there. You won’t do it. Sorry that your ideal job is to work 20hours a week, make 100k and provide zero worth to your employer. Rant over/
$42/hr, what a coincidence, that is what my anomaly-of-a-pipefitter best friend is making at 27yrs old with 2yrs of schooling left. Most guys in his position are making $32/hr.
lol bro, he’s 100% UNION! his base pay is $65/hr minus benefits brings him to $42hr.
I’m not exactly sure of where his work is located, but he is lives in a suburb of the twin cities, and I wouldn’t call it Bumfuck-town, USA. My Friend works in St. Paul.
And also, I as an engineer don’t have to go to the deep south to earn a livable/comfortable wage at 26.
I am honestly very skeptical. Not to play semantics,but is it more so training?
If you say so
As I understand it, in my friends case, you work where the union puts you.
Someone who can’t pass a piss test. May get into trouble from time to time etc.
I don’t think I made the mistake of ever saying that someone with the piece of paper is GUARANTEED to be a highly productive/competent individual.
And yes I think we all know the story of AC at this point…
[quote]
If by “dangerous” you mean designing and sending out stamped approved drawings of a system that has the ability to close two different sources (a generator and switchboard) together onto a common bus in bypass cabinet, then I agree with you - engineers can be VERY “dangerous”[/quote]
no…by dangerous I meant successful/competent/smart. It should be pretty obvious with how I wrote it.
There will always be design issues. thats what was saying. it’s easy to pick apart someones existing work. shit doesn’t always work the way it’s supposed to.
And in reality you can blame the engineer all you want but I would argue that the company that manufactures the equipment you’re referring to is more to blame. Was adequate testing done to ensure proper performance?
$42/hr, what a coincidence, that is what my anomaly-of-a-pipefitter best friend is making at 27yrs old with 2yrs of schooling left. Most guys in his position are making $32/hr.
[/quote]Not sure what your friend’s situation is, but if he is an apprentice then why is he making over scale (journeyman wages)? As an apprentice, he “should” be working with a competent journeyman learning the trade. He is INDENTURED… I’ll put it to you this way if a company I worked for put an apprentice in a journeyman role, I’d tell that worm to carry my fucking tools. Then he’d probably call the shop and say, “the journeymen are being mean to me”, the shop would call me and say, “why are you being mean to ‘johnny’?” and I would tell them, “I just told an apprentice to carry my tools, which is what apprentices are for - do you want to see what the Hall has to say about it?” and then ‘Johnny’ would be treated like an apprentice again because what his company is doing is some RATTY shit… But it doesn’t surprise me - most steam fitter locals are corrupt, shitty organizations that give unions a bad name.
[quote]
lol bro, he’s 100% UNION! his base pay is $65/hr minus benefits brings him to $42hr.
[/quote]Well if you want to count the benefits, then my scale is way over 42 an hours - I was just talking about what’s in the envelope, not health care, pension, annuity, etc… And your friend is an apprentice, he shouldn’t be making journeyman scale [quote]
I’m not exactly sure of where his work is located, but he is lives in a suburb of the twin cities, and I wouldn’t call it Bumfuck-town, USA. My Friend works in St. Paul. [/quote]If your friend is making good money, what’s he complaining about?[quote]
And also, I as an engineer don’t have to go to the deep south to earn a livable/comfortable wage at 26.[/quote]I never said you HAD to…[quote]
I am honestly very skeptical. Not to play semantics,but is it more so training?
[/quote]So now you’re calling me a liar? Look it up for yourself! http://www.jatc26.org/ [quote]
If you say so
[/quote]Again, calling me a liar? If you’re a fucking engineer, how hard is it do a simple math problem? Here’s a link to the pay scale: IBEW 26
Year 1: .45 x 42 = 18.9 x 2080 = 39312
Year 2: .5 x 42 = 21 x 2080 = 43680
Year 3: .6 x 42 = 25.2 x 2080 = 52416
Year 4: .7 x 42 = 29.4 x 2080 = 61152
Year 5: .8 x 42 = 33.6 x 2080 = 69888
That adds up to $266,448.00 I said 275K It’s a very save assumption that in five years, you’ll have $8,500.00 worth of over time… AND, it’s not counting any contract raises that will come along, or what’s being put into the annuity. So, “mr engineer”, you got a problem with my math? [quote]
As I understand it, in my friends case, you work where the union puts you.
[/quote]Your friend is an APPRENTICE. Of course he has to work there the union puts him. When you are a journeyman, I should say a journeyman who’s worth a fuck, you can pretty much work where you want.[quote]
Someone who can’t pass a piss test. May get into trouble from time to time etc.
[/quote]Honestly dude, you’re starting to offend me. I’ve never failed a piss test in my life. And we get pissed OFTEN. As a condition of employment. You can’t even get into the program with out passing a piss test, and if you piss dirty, they kick you out.
As for getting into trouble from time to time, I’ve NEVER heard of a college guy getting into trouble. NEVER… Give me a fucking break, dude.[quote]
I don’t think I made the mistake of ever saying that someone with the piece of paper is GUARANTEED to be a highly productive/competent individual.
And yes I think we all know the story of AC at this point…
[quote]
If by “dangerous” you mean designing and sending out stamped approved drawings of a system that has the ability to close two different sources (a generator and switchboard) together onto a common bus in bypass cabinet, then I agree with you - engineers can be VERY “dangerous”[/quote]
no…by dangerous I meant successful/competent/smart. It should be pretty obvious with how I wrote it.
There will always be design issues. thats what was saying. it’s easy to pick apart someones existing work. shit doesn’t always work the way it’s supposed to.
[/quote]If that’s the excuse I gave my employer after I blew something up, I wouldn’t have a job. If you’re the engineer, you’re supposed to be SMARTER than the guy putting it in. My whole point is that MANY ARE NOT. And you are putting engineers up on a fucking pedestal. I’m saying that it’s INDIVIDUALS who are either excellent or not so much AND THE PIECE OF PAPER HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH IT. At any rate, I’m done arguing with you. Enjoy the smug feeling of superiority that piece of paper gives you. But know that there are plenty of guys without it that are smarter, have more experience than you and make more money. [quote]
And in reality you can blame the engineer all you want but I would argue that the company that manufactures the equipment you’re referring to is more to blame. Was adequate testing done to ensure proper performance?
[/quote]Come on, dude - use your brain. READ what I WROTE. I wrote that an ABET engineer designed a system and drew it out (ENGINEERED IT) with two different sources, a switchgear and a generator, CONNECTED via a system bypass cabinet with a make before you break design, on a COMMON BUS… That means, to put the system into maintenance bypass, you have to CLOSE a switch with your bypass feed into the existing source BEFORE you open the existing source to do maintenance - If you OPEN the existing source BEFORE introducing the bypass source, you will drop the load and the customer will lose a lot of money… GOT IT? What happens when two different SOURCES of voltage at DIFFERENT PHASE ANGLES meet?
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
So how could this possibly be a manufacturing defect, when the system is ENGINEERED that way? You talk about how superior your education makes you, but you cant even understand that a design-engineered system is made up of components and not “manufactured and tested”. The testing occurs during the commissioning. And for the record, I caught the design flaw, installed a kirk key system in series with a sync check relay to make it impossible to close into maintenance bypass while the gen set was running. I “engineered” the solution to the problem, ordered the material and had it corrected within two days - we still met our service level agreement deadlines.[quote]
[/quote]I’ve also come across plenty of made in mexico shit that was improperly manufactured[quote]
I’d like to introduce you to Six Sigma lol.[/quote]
I’ve heard of six sigma. Not so sure what getting “black belt” would do to increase my income package - I already make over scale, vacation, company truck and gas card, etc… I’m doing alright…
[quote]LoRez wrote:
A friend of mine got a double major in Math and Computer Science in two years, taking, at times, 50 credit hours simultaneously. My advisor, and the dean, wouldn’t let me exceed 20. It didn’t stop me from learning on my own, but it did piss me off quite a bit.
[/quote]
WTF?! My last school wouldn’t even let me go over 18 credit hour crap.[/quote]
LOL, I took 25 hours in the fall and 22 in the spring my senior year of undergrad. It was a little rough.
Not sure what your friend’s situation is, but if he is an apprentice then why is he making over scale (journeyman wages)? As an apprentice, he “should” be working with a competent journeyman learning the trade. He is INDENTURED… I’ll put it to you this way if a company I worked for put an apprentice in a journeyman role, I’d tell that worm to carry my fucking tools. Then he’d probably call the shop and say, “the journeymen are being mean to me”, the shop would call me and say, “why are you being mean to ‘johnny’?” and I would tell them, “I just told an apprentice to carry my tools, which is what apprentices are for - do you want to see what the Hall has to say about it?” and then ‘Johnny’ would be treated like an apprentice again because what his company is doing is some RATTY shit… But it doesn’t surprise me - most steam fitter locals are corrupt, shitty organizations that give unions a bad name.
[/quote]
For starters, I had mentioned that he is an anomaly. He is an extremely good welder, and for some reason the union brought him to the front of the line. He does QA on the welds in the shop.
this friend (the roommate) learned a “trade”, he learned to weld and he isn’t’ making what I would call “good” money. The other friend is making good money, but he is a pipe fitter who has several years of not-free-schooling to go through.
No, I just didn’t have any reason to believe you. Not that I had any reason NOT to believe you, except for I have never heard of anything like this.
Is this type of Program specific to only the DC area? Are there programs like this for other “trades” and in other areas? It looks like the rates are quite different between DC and the Shenendoah zone. Am I reading that correctly?
[quote] Again, calling me a liar? If you’re a fucking engineer, how hard is it do a simple math problem? Here’s a link to the pay scale: IBEW 26
Year 1: .45 x 42 = 18.9 x 2080 = 39312
Year 2: .5 x 42 = 21 x 2080 = 43680
Year 3: .6 x 42 = 25.2 x 2080 = 52416
Year 4: .7 x 42 = 29.4 x 2080 = 61152
Year 5: .8 x 42 = 33.6 x 2080 = 69888
That adds up to $266,448.00 I said 275K It’s a very save assumption that in five years, you’ll have $8,500.00 worth of over time… AND, it’s not counting any contract raises that will come along, or what’s being put into the annuity. So, “mr engineer”, you got a problem with my math? [/quote]
Attitude much?
Is this type of Program specific to only the DC area? Are there programs like this for other “trades”?
I can tell. But you had to know that an answer like that was coming. And TBH, my piss isn’t clean.
[quote]
I’ve never failed a piss test in my life. And we get pissed OFTEN. As a condition of employment. You can’t even get into the program with out passing a piss test, and if you piss dirty, they kick you out.
As for getting into trouble from time to time, I’ve NEVER heard of a college guy getting into trouble. NEVER… Give me a fucking break, dude.[/quote]
The square cookies that I went to school with (while in the Mech. Engr. Major) were just that, the chances of any of them getting into trouble we virtually non-existent. Sure other college guys would get into trouble, I’m not saying they wouldn’t. You can’t sit here and find ways to get offended like this.
Yes and they are much older and have a lot more experience than I do. And when I am older and have more experience, I think I’ll be making a little* more money.
It takes an anomaly, and a crooked union to have someone my age making more than I do.
I’m not sure how many times I have to rewrite that fact that I agree that there are idiot ABET engineers out there.
[quote]
So how could this possibly be a manufacturing defect, when the system is ENGINEERED that way? You talk about how superior your education makes you, but you cant even understand that a design-engineered system is made up of components and not “manufactured and tested”. The testing occurs during the commissioning. And for the record, I caught the design flaw, installed a kirk key system in series with a sync check relay to make it impossible to close into maintenance bypass while the gen set was running. I “engineered” the solution to the problem, ordered the material and had it corrected within two days - we still met our service level agreement deadlines.[/quote]
Yes AC, we will all do great things from time to time, thats what keeps the world turning.
Not sure what your friend’s situation is, but if he is an apprentice then why is he making over scale (journeyman wages)? As an apprentice, he “should” be working with a competent journeyman learning the trade. He is INDENTURED… I’ll put it to you this way if a company I worked for put an apprentice in a journeyman role, I’d tell that worm to carry my fucking tools. Then he’d probably call the shop and say, “the journeymen are being mean to me”, the shop would call me and say, “why are you being mean to ‘johnny’?” and I would tell them, “I just told an apprentice to carry my tools, which is what apprentices are for - do you want to see what the Hall has to say about it?” and then ‘Johnny’ would be treated like an apprentice again because what his company is doing is some RATTY shit… But it doesn’t surprise me - most steam fitter locals are corrupt, shitty organizations that give unions a bad name.
[/quote]
For starters, I had mentioned that he is an anomaly. He is an extremely good welder, and for some reason the union brought him to the front of the line. He does QA on the welds in the shop.
[/quote]Still no reason for him to be jumped up in front of anyone. Sounds shady to me[quote]
this friend (the roommate) learned a “trade”, he learned to weld and he isn’t’ making what I would call “good” money. The other friend is making good money, but he is a pipe fitter who has several years of not-free-schooling to go through.
[/quote]I’m not sure why your friend is paying for his apprenticeship if he’s union. Guess he shoulda been an electrician. It sounds like the union up there is pretty shady if they are jumping people in front of others and paying apprentices journeyman money - That’s a big no no around these parts. But each jurisdiction is probably a little different.[quote]
No, I just didn’t have any reason to believe you. Not that I had any reason NOT to believe you, except for I have never heard of anything like this.
Is this type of Program specific to only the DC area? Are there programs like this for other “trades” and in other areas? It looks like the rates are quite different between DC and the Shenendoah zone. Am I reading that correctly?
[/quote]Yes, there are union apprenticeships all across the country for many different trades. The elevator guys, electricians, steamfitters, plumbers, iron workers, brick layers, insulators, glaziers, tin knockers, carpenters, etc… all have apprenticeships.
I can only speak for JATC in Local 26, as that is the only apprenticeship I went through. Although I almost transferred to the San Francisco apprenticeship about half way through my time and I could have transferred seamlessly.
Yes, there is a difference in the Shenandoah zone. And the cost of living is far lower there - the wage reflects that. The union wage up in NY is far higher than down here. It depends on where you decide to work and what book you sign.[quote]
[quote] Again, calling me a liar? If you’re a fucking engineer, how hard is it do a simple math problem? Here’s a link to the pay scale: IBEW 26
Year 1: .45 x 42 = 18.9 x 2080 = 39312
Year 2: .5 x 42 = 21 x 2080 = 43680
Year 3: .6 x 42 = 25.2 x 2080 = 52416
Year 4: .7 x 42 = 29.4 x 2080 = 61152
Year 5: .8 x 42 = 33.6 x 2080 = 69888
That adds up to $266,448.00 I said 275K It’s a very save assumption that in five years, you’ll have $8,500.00 worth of over time… AND, it’s not counting any contract raises that will come along, or what’s being put into the annuity. So, “mr engineer”, you got a problem with my math? [/quote]
Attitude much?
Is this type of Program specific to only the DC area? Are there programs like this for other “trades”?
I can tell. But you had to know that an answer like that was coming. And TBH, my piss isn’t clean.
[/quote]So why are you gonna pass judgments like that on “blue collar” guys, when you can’t even meet that standard? For the record, MY piss IS clean.[quote]
[quote]
I’ve never failed a piss test in my life. And we get pissed OFTEN. As a condition of employment. You can’t even get into the program with out passing a piss test, and if you piss dirty, they kick you out.
As for getting into trouble from time to time, I’ve NEVER heard of a college guy getting into trouble. NEVER… Give me a fucking break, dude.[/quote]
The square cookies that I went to school with (while in the Mech. Engr. Major) were just that, the chances of any of them getting into trouble we virtually non-existent. Sure other college guys would get into trouble, I’m not saying they wouldn’t. You can’t sit here and find ways to get offended like this.
Yes and they are much older and have a lot more experience than I do. And when I am older and have more experience, I think I’ll be making a little* more money.
It takes an anomaly, and a crooked union to have someone my age making more than I do.
[/quote]My son will be going into the apprenticeship next year when he’s 18. He’ll graduate when he’s 23. He’ll be making the same base rate as I do at that point. Now I get paid over scale, but if just decided to work with my tools again doing construction and went to the hall to sign the book, I’d just make regular scale. And how do you know you’d be making a LITTLE bit more? Odds are you’d be salary… That’s a losing proposition if you are trying to make money - just saying…[quote]
I’m not sure how many times I have to rewrite that fact that I agree that there are idiot ABET engineers out there.
If you consistently do great things and become one of the heavy hitters for your company, you can pretty much write whatever compensation you want. Regardless of the piece of paper…
I’m done arguing with you. Best of luck with your career. Try not to design anything stupid.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
When you are an engineer or what I call “overhead”, you are never as valuable as someone who actually PRODUCES SOMETHING. When times are tough, overhead gets cut, but they will ALWAYS need someone to climb that pole.[/quote]
So…
The average stripper is more valuable than an engineer fresh of the bus?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
When you are an engineer or what I call “overhead”, you are never as valuable as someone who actually PRODUCES SOMETHING. When times are tough, overhead gets cut, but they will ALWAYS need someone to climb that pole.[/quote]
So…
The average stripper is more valuable than an engineer fresh of the bus?[/quote]
Strippers FTMFW! They make more than engineers too… LOL
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
When you are an engineer or what I call “overhead”, you are never as valuable as someone who actually PRODUCES SOMETHING. When times are tough, overhead gets cut, but they will ALWAYS need someone to climb that pole.[/quote]
So…
The average stripper is more valuable than an engineer fresh of the bus?[/quote]
Strippers FTMFW! They make more than engineers too… LOL[/quote]
Well, ultimately, you are the battle worn sergeant and its your job to keep them alive.
If he does not come out of that power plant, its all on you!
Unless you had to frag him of course, shit happens.
