How to Adjust to Climate Change

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
The technology is far, far better now but for some reason nobody really wants to touch it–I think cost is a major issue but also it has to do with negative perception. Greenpeace is strongly against it, although I don’t think their opinion is worth shit. They are, however, not the only actively opposed organization.[/quote]

That “some reason” is Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Fukushima, etc. There is still a lot of fear about reactors and the public and our politicians tend to react to that fear.

james[/quote]

go back to Ohio , PA , IND , ILL most those areas especially around Civilization the ground water is contaminated mostly from Coal .

Oil is fucking up things faster than you can point them out .

I don’t get it you have 2 cars , 1 after you buy it you will never have to put fuel in it again . And the Family is saying but the one that you have to put fuel in is a little cheaper ???

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Unfortunately, nuclear power is now probably the safest least impactful large scale power source out there.

France is the world leader in modern nukes, and they are freaking awesome machines.[/quote]

I’m a supporter for nuclear energy. I think it’s a great way of providing low impact energy. It’s a lot better than almost any other alternative from my point of view.

james

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Unfortunately, nuclear power is now probably the safest least impactful large scale power source out there.

France is the world leader in modern nukes, and they are freaking awesome machines.[/quote]

I’m a supporter for nuclear energy. I think it’s a great way of providing low impact energy. It’s a lot better than almost any other alternative from my point of view.

james[/quote]

Totally, plus it frees up a ton of natural gas that can be used for cars.

I only hope that they start developing nukes to run the desalination plants before we run out of water out here.

Don’t want to dally too long.

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Totally, plus it frees up a ton of natural gas that can be used for cars.

I only hope that they start developing nukes to run the desalination plants before we run out of water out here.

Don’t want to dally too long.[/quote]

Really we need them in coastal California. That provides access to unlimited water. I would be hesitant to depend upon our lakes and rivers as there is a good chance that they will go away.

james

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Unfortunately, nuclear power is now probably the safest least impactful large scale power source out there.

France is the world leader in modern nukes, and they are freaking awesome machines.[/quote]

I’m a supporter for nuclear energy. I think it’s a great way of providing low impact energy. It’s a lot better than almost any other alternative from my point of view.

james[/quote]

Totally, plus it frees up a ton of natural gas that can be used for cars.

I only hope that they start developing nukes to run the desalination plants before we run out of water out here.

Don’t want to dally too long.[/quote]

I’m enjoying this discussion of alternative energy sources. What if the question of energy security is expanded from the parochial interests of the US to the international community more generally? Should nuclear technology be widely disseminated? My (limited) understanding is that most nuclear energy infrastructure is dual use: that is, the same facilities that are ostensibly being used I pursue nuclear energy could be used to clandestinely hedge toward nuclear weapons capability. Thus, there exists the risk that try will lead to the horizontal proliferation of nuclear weapons. To anyone’s knowledge, are the safeguarded technologies (such as light water reactors) much more expensive than their more traditional counterparts?

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Totally, plus it frees up a ton of natural gas that can be used for cars.

I only hope that they start developing nukes to run the desalination plants before we run out of water out here.

Don’t want to dally too long.[/quote]

Really we need them in coastal California. That provides access to unlimited water. I would be hesitant to depend upon our lakes and rivers as there is a good chance that they will go away.

james
[/quote]

Agreed, plus if sea levels are rising it’s a win for both.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Unfortunately, nuclear power is now probably the safest least impactful large scale power source out there.

France is the world leader in modern nukes, and they are freaking awesome machines.[/quote]

I’m a supporter for nuclear energy. I think it’s a great way of providing low impact energy. It’s a lot better than almost any other alternative from my point of view.

james[/quote]

Totally, plus it frees up a ton of natural gas that can be used for cars.

I only hope that they start developing nukes to run the desalination plants before we run out of water out here.

Don’t want to dally too long.[/quote]

I’m enjoying this discussion of alternative energy sources. What if the question of energy security is expanded from the parochial interests of the US to the international community more generally? Should nuclear technology be widely disseminated? My (limited) understanding is that most nuclear energy infrastructure is dual use: that is, the same facilities that are ostensibly being used I pursue nuclear energy could be used to clandestinely hedge toward nuclear weapons capability. Thus, there exists the risk that try will lead to the horizontal proliferation of nuclear weapons. To anyone’s knowledge, are the safeguarded technologies (such as light water reactors) much more expensive than their more traditional counterparts? [/quote]

My only knowledge is the the Middle Eastern countries who are petitioning for coastal nukes to power their desalination plants, have agreed to allow the foreign companies (who come from countries who have nuclear weapons already such as France and the U.S.) to retain complete control over security and safety protocols.

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Unfortunately, nuclear power is now probably the safest least impactful large scale power source out there.

France is the world leader in modern nukes, and they are freaking awesome machines.[/quote]

I’m a supporter for nuclear energy. I think it’s a great way of providing low impact energy. It’s a lot better than almost any other alternative from my point of view.

james[/quote]

Totally, plus it frees up a ton of natural gas that can be used for cars.

I only hope that they start developing nukes to run the desalination plants before we run out of water out here.

Don’t want to dally too long.[/quote]

I’m enjoying this discussion of alternative energy sources. What if the question of energy security is expanded from the parochial interests of the US to the international community more generally? Should nuclear technology be widely disseminated? My (limited) understanding is that most nuclear energy infrastructure is dual use: that is, the same facilities that are ostensibly being used I pursue nuclear energy could be used to clandestinely hedge toward nuclear weapons capability. Thus, there exists the risk that try will lead to the horizontal proliferation of nuclear weapons. To anyone’s knowledge, are the safeguarded technologies (such as light water reactors) much more expensive than their more traditional counterparts? [/quote]

My only knowledge is the the Middle Eastern countries who are petitioning for coastal nukes to power their desalination plants, have agreed to allow the foreign companies (who come from countries who have nuclear weapons already such as France and the U.S.) to retain complete control over security and safety protocols.[/quote]

So they have no national control over the enrichment process, similar to what the p5+1 wishes for Iran? Interesting. I wonder how that affects the IAEA’s inspection powers.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Unfortunately, nuclear power is now probably the safest least impactful large scale power source out there.

France is the world leader in modern nukes, and they are freaking awesome machines.[/quote]

I’m a supporter for nuclear energy. I think it’s a great way of providing low impact energy. It’s a lot better than almost any other alternative from my point of view.

james[/quote]

Totally, plus it frees up a ton of natural gas that can be used for cars.

I only hope that they start developing nukes to run the desalination plants before we run out of water out here.

Don’t want to dally too long.[/quote]

I’m enjoying this discussion of alternative energy sources. What if the question of energy security is expanded from the parochial interests of the US to the international community more generally? Should nuclear technology be widely disseminated? My (limited) understanding is that most nuclear energy infrastructure is dual use: that is, the same facilities that are ostensibly being used I pursue nuclear energy could be used to clandestinely hedge toward nuclear weapons capability. Thus, there exists the risk that try will lead to the horizontal proliferation of nuclear weapons. To anyone’s knowledge, are the safeguarded technologies (such as light water reactors) much more expensive than their more traditional counterparts? [/quote]

My only knowledge is the the Middle Eastern countries who are petitioning for coastal nukes to power their desalination plants, have agreed to allow the foreign companies (who come from countries who have nuclear weapons already such as France and the U.S.) to retain complete control over security and safety protocols.[/quote]

So they have no national control over the enrichment process, similar to what the p5+1 wishes for Iran? Interesting. I wonder how that affects the IAEA’s inspection powers.
[/quote]

It’s not a done deal by any stretch…but with the explosive growth over there in recent years, they have ZERO choice.

I was talking with a engineer from Kiewit, he just got back from servicing some of their gas powered desial plants over in the Emirates…and they are hurting bad.

They have the money and he believes they will agree to any terms to keep the water flowing

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
It’s all about cost…water is still relatively cheap, if you own shares.

But it will be gone soon and then shit is really gonna hit the fan…folks back East really don’t grasp how valuable water is here.

However, there is enough fresh water in the Great Lakes and Canada to turn the American West into a complete swamp.[/quote]

Probably true…but would it be easier to convert sea water, or pump fresh water across the country?

/Easier meaning convincing people to do it.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Aragorn, i may have asked you this before, but do I read you correctly when I conclude that you do in fact believe in anthropogenic climate change?[/quote]

I am inclined to believe we are affecting the climate, yes.

I am not inclined to believe the fraudulent IPCC and I am not inclined to believe that we account for the “vast majority” of climate change…yet.

The problem, of course, is that although we have a lot of potential areas for study, the entire thing is so politicized you can’t get any real science done. Not to mention the modelling programs in use are, shall we say, rudimentary at best. They are, in a word, something most chemists would feel embarrassed to have to rely on…and yet we rely on them for a LOT of the predictions made regardless of the fact that some of these computer models have not changed in over 20 years. Does that not set off alarm bells in anybody else’s head?? It is true, a number have. However you get very little agreement between any of them except to say “the temperature goes up”, which is roughly the equivalent of saying “a coin will land on one of its sides”.

Further, one of the most fundamental aspects of research is reproducibility. In fact, for decades, even over a century, there were specific sections in the scientific journals dedicated to fact checking and reproducing already completed experiments. They no longer exist. This is a problem for most areas of experimental science, but an even bigger problem for climate science specifically because of the computer models and in some cases lack of rigor. Whole areas of research are getting ignored–cosmic radiation effects on climate is not a joke although I recall someone either here or on another forum mentioned it with a laugh–and methodology is not being validated.

When methodology is not validated entire swaths of research are in effect unhinged from sound underpinnings. Climate science is a wreck specifically because of the politics interfering. There are well over 1,000 peer reviewed scientific articles casting open skepticism (as opposed to couched neutrality or implied skepticism) on some form of the IPCC line of catastrophism–whether methods, statistical application, or entirely different areas. These are being ignored as “scientifically illiterate” and “not real scientists” when in fact they come from major universities and pass full peer-review prior to being published. Some of these skeptical papers are even published by authors who also have AGW supporting work published.

In a scientific realm where your accuracy, rigor, and methodological validation not only affects the results but in fact can mightily influence political policy it is absolutely unforgivable to skimp or vilify on validation. In fact this is one area where it is imperative for an “all comers” approach to sort out the fittest. Throughout most of science’s history it has been the exact mechanism by which theories were rigorously validated or trashed. It seems not so now, and this is inappropriate.

So yes, I believe man affects the climate. I see no reason to dispute this at all as a matter of fact. The problem I have is that solid science is being ignored “because politics money”. There’s evidence the “climate sensitivity” is half or even less than half what it is supposed by the IPCC–note this does not say that man is not affecting climate. Dismissed as “climate denial”.

Stepping off my soapbox now.

I would imagine that even if we didn’t directly impact the environment we would at least do so indirectly through our actions like deforestation. It seems that things like not wanting to pollute is just good common sense. I remember how bad smog was back in the 70’s (and my folks said it was bad in the 50’s and 60s too). Why would we want to go back to that?

james

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Aragorn, i may have asked you this before, but do I read you correctly when I conclude that you do in fact believe in anthropogenic climate change?[/quote]

I am inclined to believe we are affecting the climate, yes.

I am not inclined to believe the fraudulent IPCC and I am not inclined to believe that we account for the “vast majority” of climate change…yet.

The problem, of course, is that although we have a lot of potential areas for study, the entire thing is so politicized you can’t get any real science done. Not to mention the modelling programs in use are, shall we say, rudimentary at best. They are, in a word, something most chemists would feel embarrassed to have to rely on…and yet we rely on them for a LOT of the predictions made regardless of the fact that some of these computer models have not changed in over 20 years. Does that not set off alarm bells in anybody else’s head?? It is true, a number have. However you get very little agreement between any of them except to say “the temperature goes up”, which is roughly the equivalent of saying “a coin will land on one of its sides”.

Further, one of the most fundamental aspects of research is reproducibility. In fact, for decades, even over a century, there were specific sections in the scientific journals dedicated to fact checking and reproducing already completed experiments. They no longer exist. This is a problem for most areas of experimental science, but an even bigger problem for climate science specifically because of the computer models and in some cases lack of rigor. Whole areas of research are getting ignored–cosmic radiation effects on climate is not a joke although I recall someone either here or on another forum mentioned it with a laugh–and methodology is not being validated.

When methodology is not validated entire swaths of research are in effect unhinged from sound underpinnings. Climate science is a wreck specifically because of the politics interfering. There are well over 1,000 peer reviewed scientific articles casting open skepticism (as opposed to couched neutrality or implied skepticism) on some form of the IPCC line of catastrophism–whether methods, statistical application, or entirely different areas. These are being ignored as “scientifically illiterate” and “not real scientists” when in fact they come from major universities and pass full peer-review prior to being published. Some of these skeptical papers are even published by authors who also have AGW supporting work published.

In a scientific realm where your accuracy, rigor, and methodological validation not only affects the results but in fact can mightily influence political policy it is absolutely unforgivable to skimp or vilify on validation. In fact this is one area where it is imperative for an “all comers” approach to sort out the fittest. Throughout most of science’s history it has been the exact mechanism by which theories were rigorously validated or trashed. It seems not so now, and this is inappropriate.

So yes, I believe man affects the climate. I see no reason to dispute this at all as a matter of fact. The problem I have is that solid science is being ignored “because politics money”. There’s evidence the “climate sensitivity” is half or even less than half what it is supposed by the IPCC–note this does not say that man is not affecting climate. Dismissed as “climate denial”.

Stepping off my soapbox now.[/quote]

Thanks for the detailed and well-assembled post. This is how it’s done, folks.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
It’s all about cost…water is still relatively cheap, if you own shares.

But it will be gone soon and then shit is really gonna hit the fan…folks back East really don’t grasp how valuable water is here.

However, there is enough fresh water in the Great Lakes and Canada to turn the American West into a complete swamp.[/quote]

Probably true…but would it be easier to convert sea water, or pump fresh water across the country?

/Easier meaning convincing people to do it.[/quote]

Talks of pipelines from Canada’s far north to the western US have been around as long as I can remember. It’s doable for sure.

I don’t know if desalination plants or pipelines would be cheaper.

I’d have to think it would be a tougher sell to take water from the Great Lakes than from the vast supplies in northern Canada’s fresh water lakes. I remember reading about it a long time ago – the amount of available water there is ginormous.
[/quote]

If you start pumping water out of the Great Lakes, you essentially have six in one hand and half a dozen in the other. The Great Lakes are large enough to significantly alter the direction of air masses moving across that part of the continent. There is also a significant amount of precipitation that comes off those lakes and moves eastward. If you start drying up that area, you risk altering wind patterns and the location of rainfall, which could have a negative impact on agriculture and so forth.

On top of that, there is quite a large fishing industry that depends on the Great Lakes and the surrounding waterways. If you pump water out of there, then you also risk ruining that industry entirely. There is also quite a lot of cargo shipped across the Lakes and into Canada. If you pump water out of there, then you also remove what is actually a very “green” way of shipping large amounts of goods, along with altering and perhaps negatively impacting that industry out there as well.

Of course getting people to sign off on massive underground water pipes would be rather difficult as well…I would assume that there would be enough deserted coastline to make the nukes and plants viable.

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Of course getting people to sign off on massive underground water pipes would be rather difficult as well…I would assume that there would be enough deserted coastline to make the nukes and plants viable.[/quote]

True. I don’t know the exact rate, but pipelines run into the millions of $ per mile. Multiplied by thousands of miles and it goes into billions pretty quick.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Of course getting people to sign off on massive underground water pipes would be rather difficult as well…I would assume that there would be enough deserted coastline to make the nukes and plants viable.[/quote]

True. I don’t know the exact rate, but pipelines run into the millions of $ per mile. Multiplied by thousands of miles and it goes into billions pretty quick.
[/quote]

I’m sure that millions of people without water might speed up the process.