How to Adjust to Climate Change

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

I merely pointed out your position is illogical.

[/quote]

Faux Pas of the Day:

You telling a creationist that his view of man’s uniqueness is “illogical” while you flop around like a fish on the deck of the boat spouting your “I dunno (but I have faith it happened randomly and completely by chance and mutations” fallback premise).

Kewl.
[/quote]

I didn’t say your view of mans’ uniqueness is illogical. I said your assertion that evolution cannot entail the uniqueness of man is illogical.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Example: If I come across a UFO, I don’t need to know how it was built or why it was built to recognise that it is an advanced technology and unique in relation to other aircraft.[/quote]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…methinks SM is subconsciously shifting into the Intelligent Design camp.

And if you came across said UFO you’d say, "Wow:

a) Look at how fookin complicated that design is! That there sumbitch musta threw itself together completely by chance over millions of years.

OR

b) Look at how fookin complicated that design is! That there sumbitch musta had a designer.

Which one? A or B? What will it be?

Thanks for that perfect analogy, my friend. You are a greater asset here than you realize.

Carry on.[/quote]

That’s besides the point and I’m not arguing against intelligent design nor am I even arguing in favour of evolution. You’re so caught up in your polemics against evolution that you see everything I say as some sort of endorsement of it. I was merely pointing out that if one were an evolutionist it does not necessarily follow that one must believe that man is just an animal and that he’s not unique.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

…I said your assertion that evolution cannot entail the uniqueness of man is illogical.[/quote]

Because?[/quote]

Because uniqueness is not the same as a level of complexity entailing intelligent design. Uniqueness need not be teleological. It does not need to entail a purpose or end.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

…I said your assertion that evolution cannot entail the uniqueness of man is illogical.[/quote]

Because?[/quote]

Because uniqueness is not the same as a level of complexity entailing intelligent design. Uniqueness need not be teleological. It does not need to entail a purpose or end.[/quote]

Uniqueness to the degree of the human being MUST be teleological. There is no other rational answer.
[/quote]

That is a point upon which an evolutionist might disagree. I’m agnostic on the matter. I don’t look for empirical evidence for the existence of God.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
The evolutionary model doesn’t require that man is reduced to an animal. I’m sure some evolutionists would argue man evolved beyond animals and that he is unique.[/quote]

If you’re going to claim this you must explain why.

Of course, there are theistic evolutionists. And they bring a truckload of problems with their explanations. Huge truckload.[/quote]

Why? Because it is self evident that man is unique: language; abstract thought; culture etc. If man evolved from animals he has certainly surpassed them and civilised man has transcended his animalistic nature.
[/quote]

Exactly my point.

Now explain why and how “the evolutionary model doesn’t require that man is reduced to an animal.”[/quote]

Why would it? Man could have evolved into something beyond a mere animal.[/quote]

Good grief, you’re struggling here, man.

Explain HOW and WHY this could/did happen.[/quote]

In order
-bipedalism as a uniquely derived trait of the genus Homo
-development of stone tools
-brain expansion
-development of the larynx
-development of language [/quote]

face palm

[/quote]

What a cogent and nuanced response. Homo sapiens are preeminent because of one thing - our brains. Primate intelligence is already unique within the animal kingdom. Within the brainy primate order, the family hominidae is outstanding. Within hominidae, the genus Homo is a standout. And finally, the genus species Homo sapiens became the pinnacle of human intelligence, and as a result became the only extant human species.

Encephalization quotient is a measure of relative brain size defined as the ratio between actual brain mass and predicted brain mass for an animal of a given size, which is hypothesized to be a rough estimate of the intelligence or cognition of the animal. Human brains are 3X larger than what regression analysis would predict for a primate of our size, and 7X for a comparatively sized mammal. Much of the the size expansion comes from the cerebral cortex, especially the frontal lobes, which are associated with executive functions such as self-control, planning, reasoning, and abstract thought.

It should be obvious to see why these uniquely derived traits would give Homo sapiens an overwhelming advantage over its peers, most notably over the other human species it coexisted with in the past. This massively improved software is a relatively new development in human evolution, occurring between 600-400 thousand years ago. Modern man is an animal, but an incredibly intelligent one.

This intelligence begets agency, which itself begets morality. Within creationism, there is no logical need for a Creator to have made man in its image, so why do you take this position? Gown the overwhelming scientific literature, it is far more tenable to believe that the Deus constructed and set the mechanisms of evolution in motion. The particular flavor of creationism that you are arguing for represents only a tiny fraction of possible creationist narratives. Not only do you have to provide evidence of creationism more generally, but you have to go deeper and evidence that the creation account given by the Abrahamic religions is the correct one. Of those three faiths, you have to evidence why Christianity wins the day. Your faith is a Russian nesting doll Push. The philosophy of science is infinitely simpler and makes far, far less assumptions.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
The evolutionary model doesn’t require that man is reduced to an animal. I’m sure some evolutionists would argue man evolved beyond animals and that he is unique.[/quote]

If you’re going to claim this you must explain why.

Of course, there are theistic evolutionists. And they bring a truckload of problems with their explanations. Huge truckload.[/quote]

Why? Because it is self evident that man is unique: language; abstract thought; culture etc. If man evolved from animals he has certainly surpassed them and civilised man has transcended his animalistic nature.
[/quote]

Exactly my point.

Now explain why and how “the evolutionary model doesn’t require that man is reduced to an animal.”[/quote]

Why would it? Man could have evolved into something beyond a mere animal.[/quote]

Good grief, you’re struggling here, man.

Explain HOW and WHY this could/did happen.[/quote]

In order
-bipedalism as a uniquely derived trait of the genus Homo
-development of stone tools
-brain expansion
-development of the larynx
-development of language [/quote]

face palm

[/quote]

What a cogent and nuanced response. Homo sapiens are preeminent because of one thing - our brains. Primate intelligence is already unique within the animal kingdom. Within the brainy primate order, the family hominidae is outstanding. Within hominidae, the genus Homo is a standout. And finally, the genus species Homo sapiens became the pinnacle of human intelligence, and as a result became the only extant human species.

Encephalization quotient is a measure of relative brain size defined as the ratio between actual brain mass and predicted brain mass for an animal of a given size, which is hypothesized to be a rough estimate of the intelligence or cognition of the animal. Human brains are 3X larger than what regression analysis would predict for a primate of our size, and 7X for a comparatively sized mammal. Much of the the size expansion comes from the cerebral cortex, especially the frontal lobes, which are associated with executive functions such as self-control, planning, reasoning, and abstract thought.

It should be obvious to see why these uniquely derived traits would give Homo sapiens an overwhelming advantage over its peers, most notably over the other human species it coexisted with in the past. This massively improved software is a relatively new development in human evolution, occurring between 600-400 thousand years ago. Modern man is an animal, but an incredibly intelligent one.

This intelligence begets agency, which itself begets morality. Within creationism, there is no logical need for a Creator to have made man in its image, so why do you take this position? Gown the overwhelming scientific literature, it is far more tenable to believe that the Deus constructed and set the mechanisms of evolution in motion. The particular flavor of creationism that you are arguing for represents only a tiny fraction of possible creationist narratives. Not only do you have to provide evidence of creationism more generally, but you have to go deeper and evidence that the creation account given by the Abrahamic religions is the correct one. Of those three faiths, you have to evidence why Christianity wins the day. Your faith is a Russian nesting doll Push. The philosophy of science is infinitely simpler and makes far, far less assumptions. [/quote]

The problem with science is that it purports to explain the world when in actuality it can only describe the world. Further, as Descartes explained we can never really know for sure that what we observe is real. The only thing we can be sure of is that we exist(because we think - cogito ergo sum).

I’m not a perennialist(and if I was I wouldn’t be allowed to say so), but it’s interesting how the same founding myths appear in disparate civilisations across the globe. For example, the epic war between the Titans and Olympians in Hesiod’s Theogony, the Aesir-Venir war in Norse mythology, the war of the Babylonian Gods in the Enuma Elis, the Hittite Kumarbi, Virubhadra’s war against the Vedic Gods in Hindu mythology and the rebellion of Satan in Christianity etc.

With the exception of Christianity these are all nationalist myths that define people. A “people” in the ethnic, cultural and linguistic sense comes into existence through its founding myths. There is not a tribe on earth that does not have one. Without these myths distinct peoples would not exist. These creation myths serve the function they describe - they create a people. Who is to say they are not true? Science? Science is devoid of meaning.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
The evolutionary model doesn’t require that man is reduced to an animal. I’m sure some evolutionists would argue man evolved beyond animals and that he is unique.[/quote]

If you’re going to claim this you must explain why.

Of course, there are theistic evolutionists. And they bring a truckload of problems with their explanations. Huge truckload.[/quote]

Why? Because it is self evident that man is unique: language; abstract thought; culture etc. If man evolved from animals he has certainly surpassed them and civilised man has transcended his animalistic nature.
[/quote]

Exactly my point.

Now explain why and how “the evolutionary model doesn’t require that man is reduced to an animal.”[/quote]

Why would it? Man could have evolved into something beyond a mere animal.[/quote]

I don’t think anyone is saying that they are not true.

Good grief, you’re struggling here, man.

Explain HOW and WHY this could/did happen.[/quote]

In order
-bipedalism as a uniquely derived trait of the genus Homo
-development of stone tools
-brain expansion
-development of the larynx
-development of language [/quote]

face palm

[/quote]

What a cogent and nuanced response. Homo sapiens are preeminent because of one thing - our brains. Primate intelligence is already unique within the animal kingdom. Within the brainy primate order, the family hominidae is outstanding. Within hominidae, the genus Homo is a standout. And finally, the genus species Homo sapiens became the pinnacle of human intelligence, and as a result became the only extant human species.

Encephalization quotient is a measure of relative brain size defined as the ratio between actual brain mass and predicted brain mass for an animal of a given size, which is hypothesized to be a rough estimate of the intelligence or cognition of the animal. Human brains are 3X larger than what regression analysis would predict for a primate of our size, and 7X for a comparatively sized mammal. Much of the the size expansion comes from the cerebral cortex, especially the frontal lobes, which are associated with executive functions such as self-control, planning, reasoning, and abstract thought.

It should be obvious to see why these uniquely derived traits would give Homo sapiens an overwhelming advantage over its peers, most notably over the other human species it coexisted with in the past. This massively improved software is a relatively new development in human evolution, occurring between 600-400 thousand years ago. Modern man is an animal, but an incredibly intelligent one.

This intelligence begets agency, which itself begets morality. Within creationism, there is no logical need for a Creator to have made man in its image, so why do you take this position? Gown the overwhelming scientific literature, it is far more tenable to believe that the Deus constructed and set the mechanisms of evolution in motion. The particular flavor of creationism that you are arguing for represents only a tiny fraction of possible creationist narratives. Not only do you have to provide evidence of creationism more generally, but you have to go deeper and evidence that the creation account given by the Abrahamic religions is the correct one. Of those three faiths, you have to evidence why Christianity wins the day. Your faith is a Russian nesting doll Push. The philosophy of science is infinitely simpler and makes far, far less assumptions. [/quote]

The problem with science is that it purports to explain the world when in actuality it can only describe the world. Further, as Descartes explained we can never really know for sure that what we observe is real. The only thing we can be sure of is that we exist(because we think - cogito ergo sum).

I’m not a perennialist(and if I was I wouldn’t be allowed to say so), but it’s interesting how the same founding myths appear in disparate civilisations across the globe. For example, the epic war between the Titans and Olympians in Hesiod’s Theogony, the Aesir-Venir war in Norse mythology, the war of the Babylonian Gods in the Enuma Elis, the Hittite Kumarbi, Virubhadra’s war against the Vedic Gods in Hindu mythology and the rebellion of Satan in Christianity etc.

With the exception of Christianity these are all nationalist myths that define people. A “people” in the ethnic, cultural and linguistic sense comes into existence through its founding myths. There is not a tribe on earth that does not have one. Without these myths distinct peoples would not exist. These creation myths serve the function they describe - they create a people. Who is to say they are not true? Science? Science is devoid of meaning.
[/quote]

I don’t think Science says they are not true. I think Science simply says the evidence is not there. I’m sure that when/if the evidence is found Science will gladly say it’s true.

Science is merely what we observe: that our experience of time and space conform to laws such as mathematics, physics and quantum mechanics. We know that the universe has apparently been indifferent(laws not broken) at least from the perspectives of a large number of other observers, and the collective attempt to corroborate this apparent indifference or nihilism is a few thousand years.

But the profundity of things that we’ve discovered in quantum mechanics and the visionary experiences we have collectively corroborated by bards and sages and that we’ve felt ourselves when we dream and have abstract and symbolic thoughts at moments of heightened emotion such as fear, joy, love and so on. Do we have a hunch? I do. I took Pascal’s wager and bet on a couple of teams. And from those two I will decide by how I live.

How I live is ethics and ethics are objective and exist as law in the same way as mathematics and most of us(I hope) suspect when we’re not behaving according to objective ethical standards. According to my understanding of objective ethic standards it’s a choice between Jesus or Barabbas. And whichever one remains to be seen.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]hmm87 wrote:

I don’t think Science says they are not true. I think Science simply says the evidence is not there. I’m sure that when/if the evidence is found Science will gladly say it’s true.
[/quote]

Some folks apparently have not figured out that science and scientism are two different things.

Science will certainly gladly say it’s true. Scientism-ists will not.

Many of you are in the latter camp.[/quote]

The same thing can be said for any religious person. Some choose to believe based only on faith. Others believe because they “know” its true.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Science is merely what we observe: that our experience of time and space conform to laws such as mathematics, physics and quantum mechanics. We know that the universe has apparently been indifferent(laws not broken) at least from the perspectives of a large number of other observers, and the collective attempt to corroborate this apparent indifference or nihilism is a few thousand years.

But the profundity of things that we’ve discovered in quantum mechanics and the visionary experiences we have collectively corroborated by bards and sages and that we’ve felt ourselves when we dream and have abstract and symbolic thoughts at moments of heightened emotion such as fear, joy, love and so on. Do we have a hunch? I do. I took Pascal’s wager and bet on a couple of teams. And from those two I will decide by how I live.

How I live is ethics and ethics are objective and exist as law in the same way as mathematics and most of us(I hope) suspect when we’re not behaving according to objective ethical standards. According to my understanding of objective ethic standards it’s a choice between Jesus or Barabbas. And whichever one remains to be seen.[/quote]

I’d have to disagree that ethics are objective. It’s all relative.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
The evolutionary model doesn’t require that man is reduced to an animal. I’m sure some evolutionists would argue man evolved beyond animals and that he is unique.[/quote]

If you’re going to claim this you must explain why.

Of course, there are theistic evolutionists. And they bring a truckload of problems with their explanations. Huge truckload.[/quote]

Why? Because it is self evident that man is unique: language; abstract thought; culture etc. If man evolved from animals he has certainly surpassed them and civilised man has transcended his animalistic nature.
[/quote]

Exactly my point.

Now explain why and how “the evolutionary model doesn’t require that man is reduced to an animal.”[/quote]

Why would it? Man could have evolved into something beyond a mere animal.[/quote]

Good grief, you’re struggling here, man.

Explain HOW and WHY this could/did happen.[/quote]

In order
-bipedalism as a uniquely derived trait of the genus Homo
-development of stone tools
-brain expansion
-development of the larynx
-development of language [/quote]

face palm

[/quote]

What a cogent and nuanced response. Homo sapiens are preeminent because of one thing - our brains. Primate intelligence is already unique within the animal kingdom. Within the brainy primate order, the family hominidae is outstanding. Within hominidae, the genus Homo is a standout. And finally, the genus species Homo sapiens became the pinnacle of human intelligence, and as a result became the only extant human species.

Encephalization quotient is a measure of relative brain size defined as the ratio between actual brain mass and predicted brain mass for an animal of a given size, which is hypothesized to be a rough estimate of the intelligence or cognition of the animal. Human brains are 3X larger than what regression analysis would predict for a primate of our size, and 7X for a comparatively sized mammal. Much of the the size expansion comes from the cerebral cortex, especially the frontal lobes, which are associated with executive functions such as self-control, planning, reasoning, and abstract thought.

It should be obvious to see why these uniquely derived traits would give Homo sapiens an overwhelming advantage over its peers, most notably over the other human species it coexisted with in the past. This massively improved software is a relatively new development in human evolution, occurring between 600-400 thousand years ago. Modern man is an animal, but an incredibly intelligent one.

This intelligence begets agency, which itself begets morality. Within creationism, there is no logical need for a Creator to have made man in its image, so why do you take this position? Gown the overwhelming scientific literature, it is far more tenable to believe that the Deus constructed and set the mechanisms of evolution in motion. The particular flavor of creationism that you are arguing for represents only a tiny fraction of possible creationist narratives. Not only do you have to provide evidence of creationism more generally, but you have to go deeper and evidence that the creation account given by the Abrahamic religions is the correct one. Of those three faiths, you have to evidence why Christianity wins the day. Your faith is a Russian nesting doll Push. The philosophy of science is infinitely simpler and makes far, far less assumptions. [/quote]

The problem with science is that it purports to explain the world when in actuality it can only describe the world. Further, as Descartes explained we can never really know for sure that what we observe is real. The only thing we can be sure of is that we exist(because we think - cogito ergo sum).

I’m not a perennialist(and if I was I wouldn’t be allowed to say so), but it’s interesting how the same founding myths appear in disparate civilisations across the globe. For example, the epic war between the Titans and Olympians in Hesiod’s Theogony, the Aesir-Venir war in Norse mythology, the war of the Babylonian Gods in the Enuma Elis, the Hittite Kumarbi, Virubhadra’s war against the Vedic Gods in Hindu mythology and the rebellion of Satan in Christianity etc.

With the exception of Christianity these are all nationalist myths that define people. A “people” in the ethnic, cultural and linguistic sense comes into existence through its founding myths. There is not a tribe on earth that does not have one. Without these myths distinct peoples would not exist. These creation myths serve the function they describe - they create a people. Who is to say they are not true? Science? Science is devoid of meaning.
[/quote]

You are failing to distinguish between a paradigm’s ability to describe, to explain, or to predict. Science ( and the theory of evolution in particular) is able to fulfill all of these functions. In the philosophical sense, the physical and life sciences are more empirical than they are rational.

I fail to see how national mythologies relate to what I posted above. The do not describe reality, not do they possess explanatory or predictive power.