How to Adjust to Climate Change

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

I challenged you to do this by imagining that you are to debate a renowned evolutionist. He makes his claims and then he provides all of the specific and direct evidence he can gather in its support. And then you take the stage, and you read Gen 2:7, and do the same: You provide all of the specific and direct evidence you can gather in its support.

And your answer is…“your silly Genesis 2:7 challenges.” Silly. [i]Silly[/i]. You were challenged to give us a single shred of evidence in direct and specific support of a position which you hold to be reasonable…and you called this silly?

That – that word – “silly” – is a conclusion. A victory. A decisive one.[/quote]

The theory of evolution relies on the idea that abiogenesis occurred. There is no known law that explains or allows this to happen. Abiogenesis has never been observed or duplicated. Abiogenesis has been demonstrably proven to be false. If abiogenesis is false, evolution is false.

No mutation has ever been observed that added a new function to an organism that did not previously possess that function. Not ever. Not one of the 8+ million species on Earth has ever been observed to develop a new function. If random mutations cannot develop new functions in organisms that did not previously possess those functions, then evolution is false. Evolutionists would have you believe this has happened literally millions upon millions of times. It should still be happening. Oh, and while crossbreeding can transfer existing functionality, it cannot explain the origin of any new functionality in the beginning.
[/quote]

^Is this why Wyoming has only one accredited university?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Actually it does show linear progression.

[/quote]

In theory.

In theory.

Really, in hypothesis. It doesn’t honestly pass the “theory” threshhold.

In some cases, yes. In many more, no, not deliberate.

Evolution is a quasi-religion and its believers don’t necessarily “deliberately lie.”

Irrelevant.

I know this subject fairly well and can easily discern who has actually studied the creation model besides the TalkOrigins website.

You have not.
[/quote]

How does one “study” a pseudoscience?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

He’s going a lot further though. He’s advancing a premise that evolution requires faith and that the amount of faith it requires exceeds the amount required to believe in creationism.[/quote]

Precisely.[/quote]

Which is mind numbingly imbecilic. There isn’t a single, minuscule shred of objective evidence that supports the account of creation given by genesis.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

The whole CONCEPT of “sin” is bullshit!

[/quote]

The concept of doing wrong, like say murder or theft is wrong?

Religion aside, you’re a fool if you don’t believe that man is inherently evil.

There’s a vast array of reasons why. To reduce it down to a singular reason is foolish.

You’re an idiot. The church has a millennia old tradition of vows of poverty and looking after the poor before there was a welfare state and Daddy Obama to look after them. Do you deny this? Aren’t you capable of seeing both the good and the bad in something? I would’ve thought someone interested in Taoism would be able to see both the yin and the yang.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
The theory of evolution relies on the idea that abiogenesis occurred. There is no known law that explains or allows this to happen. Abiogenesis has never been observed or duplicated. Abiogenesis has been demonstrably proven to be false. If abiogenesis is false, evolution is false.

No mutation has ever been observed that added a new function to an organism that did not previously possess that function. Not ever. Not one of the 8+ million species on Earth has ever been observed to develop a new function. If random mutations cannot develop new functions in organisms that did not previously possess those functions, then evolution is false. Evolutionists would have you believe this has happened literally millions upon millions of times. It should still be happening. Oh, and while crossbreeding can transfer existing functionality, it cannot explain the origin of any new functionality in the beginning.
[/quote]

I’ll spot you that no evidence supports evolution. What observable evidence supports this again:

“The LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

Like smh, I’ve been waiting for an answer to this and am willing to concede no observable evidence supports evolution to get to the positive observable evidence that supports the above account.

Edit: Bonus points if you can point to evidence of when this happened. [/quote]

You might note that in none of my previous statements did I write the above quote. With that being said, we are arguing two differing accounts on the creation of life and the universe. Despite all known natural laws, millions of impossibilities occurred despite their impossibility. Think of the probability of the following small list of things absolutely needed to support life happening by chance: the force of gravity at exactly the right level, the strong and weak nuclear forces at just the right level, the sun at the right temperature and distance from Earth, the moon at the right size and distance from Earth, the electromagnetic force at the right level, and that the number of electrons and protons that exist have to be equal to an accuracy of 1x10^37 or the planets would not have formed.

Now imagine how big the number is by adding all the probabilities together needed for the formation of the universe and life. The number is so high as to be incomprehensible. The idea that everything works together by blind luck and not because it was designed that way seems, to me, ridiculous.

The evidence can show that evolution cannot be true. The evidence cannot show that God did not create everything.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

I’ll spot you that no evidence supports evolution. What observable evidence supports this again:

“The LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

Like smh, I’ve been waiting for an answer to this and am willing to concede no observable evidence supports evolution to get to the positive evidence that supports the above account.

[/quote]

Good grief, have I ever tried to address this, at the very minimum indirectly but yet repeatedly:

It takes faith in presuppositions to posit about the distant, unobservable past.

That means it takes faith to trust Genesis 2:7

AND

it takes faith to trust the fundamentals of macroevolution.

I will say that despite Bistro’s claims of a myriad of thoroughly recognizable ancestral pre-humans the evidence is woefully weak. There jes ain’t that many humanoid fossils around.

What we do find is:

an occasional tooth

jawbone fragment

or such

and these are forced into the macroevolution model with a hammer.[/quote]

It’s not just “a few bones”. We’re talking about many complete skeletons, their campsites, remains of their fireplaces and animal bones, even their tools not to mention their genetic material in us. Do you deny that these humanoids actually existed?[/quote]

No! You’re not finding complete skeletons of transitional humanoids in any kind of abundance. That is false. Patently false.[/quote]

I’m not arguing that they’re “transitional species”. This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of evolution on your part. They’re species that diverged upon completely separate evolutionary paths. Only one of them is put forward as a direct ancestor of Homo sapiens. I was asking if you concede that they existed at all. It appears you do but that you’re attempting to undermine the evidence and muddy the waters like a squid disappearing in a cloud of ink.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

I challenged you to do this by imagining that you are to debate a renowned evolutionist. He makes his claims and then he provides all of the specific and direct evidence he can gather in its support. And then you take the stage, and you read Gen 2:7, and do the same: You provide all of the specific and direct evidence you can gather in its support.

And your answer is…“your silly Genesis 2:7 challenges.” Silly. [i]Silly[/i]. You were challenged to give us a single shred of evidence in direct and specific support of a position which you hold to be reasonable…and you called this silly?

That – that word – “silly” – is a conclusion. A victory. A decisive one.[/quote]

The theory of evolution relies on the idea that abiogenesis occurred. There is no known law that explains or allows this to happen. Abiogenesis has never been observed or duplicated. Abiogenesis has been demonstrably proven to be false. If abiogenesis is false, evolution is false.

No mutation has ever been observed that added a new function to an organism that did not previously possess that function. Not ever. Not one of the 8+ million species on Earth has ever been observed to develop a new function. If random mutations cannot develop new functions in organisms that did not previously possess those functions, then evolution is false. Evolutionists would have you believe this has happened literally millions upon millions of times. It should still be happening. Oh, and while crossbreeding can transfer existing functionality, it cannot explain the origin of any new functionality in the beginning.
[/quote]

^Is this why Wyoming has only one accredited university?[/quote]

Do you have proof otherwise or does all your “rhetoric” consist of ad hominems?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

I’ll spot you that no evidence supports evolution. What observable evidence supports this again:

“The LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

Like smh, I’ve been waiting for an answer to this and am willing to concede no observable evidence supports evolution to get to the positive evidence that supports the above account.

[/quote]

Good grief, have I ever tried to address this, at the very minimum indirectly but yet repeatedly:

It takes faith in presuppositions to posit about the distant, unobservable past.

That means it takes faith to trust Genesis 2:7

AND

it takes faith to trust the fundamentals of macroevolution.

I will say that despite Bistro’s claims of a myriad of thoroughly recognizable ancestral pre-humans the evidence is woefully weak. There jes ain’t that many humanoid fossils around.

What we do find is:

an occasional tooth

jawbone fragment

or such

and these are forced into the macroevolution model with a hammer.[/quote]

Thanks. All you had to do was concede no scientific evidence supports the first claim.

[/quote]

He’s going a lot further though. He’s advancing a premise that evolution requires faith and that the amount of faith it requires exceeds the amount required to believe in creationism.[/quote]

Indeed – setting up an entirely false equivalency.

Excuse me – an entirely false, laughable equivalency.

Because though the process of evolution be unobserved in the directest sense – this, we should all stop and note, being entirely unsurprising, given that there are trees in my backyard which predate Darwin’s birth, and what is called “macro-evolution” proceeds over the course of millions of years – the process logically underlying it, that of natural selection and consequent group adaptation, has been well observed and well documented; and though the fossil record be incomplete, it makes suggestions to even the most skeptical mind, provided that that mind is not lost in some or another eliminative orifice.

In much easier words, the evolutionary biologist/paleobiologist/geneticist has a case – a specific and direct case – to make. We all know this to be true, and we all know, to varying degrees, what it is. The journals – the reputable ones – are positively brimming with research (though most of us would have a hard time understanding much of it).

Does anybody think that, in my little hypothetical, the evolutionist would do as Push does and stand silent and blinking before the crushing silence of a discerning audience? Does anybody think that some of the best minds in science, evolutionary biologists of Harvard and Oxford and so on, would freeze up and fall to quiet?

No, nobody thinks either of those things. Yes, faith applies insofar as “faith” is taken to apply to anything that we do not know in the strictest senses of the term. Yes, there are uncertainties, there are gaps, there is room for skepticism.

But what there also is is a case. An evidential and logical case: A list of reasons whereupon is laid the foundation for the claim that the reasonable human is compelled, on the evidence, to choose evolution over its many competitors. It is abundantly clear – and has now been admitted – that the same cannot, even by the most generous criteria, be said he who pushes Genesis 2:7.

So, as I said pages back, I cannot beyond doubt prove, with the tools presently available to me, that day broke on the morning of 4565 BC. This does not mean that I am just as reasonable a man if I choose instead to believe that it did not.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

The whole CONCEPT of “sin” is bullshit!

[/quote]

The concept of doing wrong, like say murder or theft is wrong?
[/quote]You didn’t say “wrong”, you said “SIN”.[quote]

Religion aside, you’re a fool if you don’t believe that man is inherently evil.
[/quote]Call me a fool, but I believe that humans are born “tabula rasa”. I don’t believe we are inherently evil at all. I believe we are wired to survive, and seek status to enhance our mating options. I believe we are capable of GREAT “evil” and GREAT “good” in pursuit of those ends. I’ll meet you half way and say that I think we are inherently SELFISH… But not “evil”.[quote]

There’s a vast array of reasons why. To reduce it down to a singular reason is foolish.
[/quote]What are you talking about? It all comes down to MONEY and POWER. Everything else takes a back seat. You’re a student of history, surely this FACT does not escape you…[quote]

You’re an idiot. The church has a millennia old tradition of vows of poverty and looking after the poor before there was a welfare state and Daddy Obama to look after them. Do you deny this? Aren’t you capable of seeing both the good and the bad in something? I would’ve thought someone interested in Taoism would be able to see both the yin and the yang.
[/quote]
I may be an idiot and a fool, but looking after the poor is in ANY organization’s self interest! Look at the democrats! If the Church HADN’T looked after the poor, another group would have filled that need and then THEY would have the power and the numbers… Back in the day the church WAS the equivalent of the democratic party: We’ll feed you, but you better shut up and support us and spread the word of god.

How many people back then expressed ANY doubt in their faith and still got fed?

Do you think an organization that would sanction BURNING WOMEN AT A STEAK less than five hundred years ago would tolerate any kind of dissent?

They were the equivalent of “let us win your hearts and minds or we’ll burn your damn huts down”. Sure they fed the poor. CONDITIONALLY.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
No! You’re not finding complete skeletons of transitional humanoids in any kind of abundance. That is false. Patently false.[/quote]

Now we’re getting phrases like “in any kind of abundance.” One fossil suggestive of an evolutionary link or an evolutionary detour is enough to put the TOE in an infinitely more prestigious class than your Christian creationism, which remains in the “there is no specific and direct reason to believe that any of this shit happened” class.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
By what process do bacteria become resistant to antibiotics? Anyone know how the process works?[/quote]

No? Okay. Antibiotics kill off the vast majority of bacteria leaving alive only those that have(through random mutations) that have genetic resistance. This small group of survivors then replicate themselves as a new antibiotic resistant strain. This process is essentially…“natural selection”.[/quote]

I responded to your post on the last page.

Your tangent here is a…silly one…and illustrates your ignorance of the creation model.

Of all people here I expected more from you.
[/quote]

Tsk tsk. Have I been silly?

Microevolution demonstrates the process of natural selection that is played out on a larger scale(macroevolution). To accept microevolution is to accept the process by which organisms adapt to environmental changes.
[/quote]

Wrong. Microevolution describes changes to existing functions. Macroevolution describes organisms acquiring completely new functions. One has been observed. One has not.
[/quote]

Functions? What do you mean by functions?

By the way, this is a quote from a creationist apologetics site:

“Macro-evolution: Refers to large scale changes - where one species transforms into another completely different species. For example, birds are said to have evolved from dinosaurs. This process requires the addition of new information to the genetic codes.”

^^This is not correct. Birds did not “acquire new genetic material”. Existing genetic material underwent random mutations which were then selectively preserved. Over millions of years this process of selectively preserving mutations produces radically different organisms(speciation). Furthermore, the original genes are largely preserved and can be “switched on” again as demonstrated in the experiments with chicken embryos.

[/quote]

Gills to lungs. Fins to limbs. Membrane to skin. Skin to scales. Scales to hair. Hair to feathers. Limbs to wings. Hooves to feet. Etc. There would have been millions upon millions of organisms in the middle of these transitions. Many have claimed these transitions exist. Where are the fossils with one limb and one wing? One lung and gills? Two hooves or claws and two feet? Half scales and half feathers? Half scales and half skin? Billions and billions of fossils have been found. Show me links to pictures of these types of fossils?

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
[/quote]

You might note that in none of my previous statements did I write the above quote. With that being said, we are arguing two differing accounts on the creation of life and the universe. Despite all known natural laws, millions of impossibilities occurred despite their impossibility. Think of the probability of the following small list of things absolutely needed to support life happening by chance: the force of gravity at exactly the right level, the strong and weak nuclear forces at just the right level, the sun at the right temperature and distance from Earth, the moon at the right size and distance from Earth, the electromagnetic force at the right level, and that the number of electrons and protons that exist have to be equal to an accuracy of 1x10^37 or the planets would not have formed.

Now imagine how big the number is by adding all the probabilities together needed for the formation of the universe and life. The number is so high as to be incomprehensible. The idea that everything works together by blind luck and not because it was designed that way seems, to me, ridiculous.

The evidence can show that evolution cannot be true. The evidence cannot show that God did not create everything.
[/quote]

So no observable evidence.

By the way, if you are using math and statistics to prove your point as positive evidence, what are the mathematical/statistical probabilities that god designed everything?

Edit: And, more specifically, that support that god created man from dust at the same time he/she/it created earth and the heavens.

Edited to fix quotes

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
You didn’t say “wrong”, you said “SIN”.[/quote]

“Sin” is synonymous with “wrong”.

I don’t mean to be dismissive, but I haven’t seen any evidence that you’ve actually studied such concepts. The “tabula rasa” has been advanced from very different perspectives: from the mind as pure potential to postmodernist theories attempting to refute racial differences to feminist and gay theories about sexuality and “gender” to ontological premises about essence and existence.

Then you’re a fool. At least in this context. I’m certain you know more than I do about electricity but in terms of human nature you fail big time.

No it doesn’t. In many cases it comes down to the noblest and most selfless impulses.

[quote]
Everything else takes a back seat. You’re a student of history, surely this FACT does not escape you…[/quote]

It’s not a “fact”. It’s a simplistic, reductionist attempt to ascribe a single motivation to the vast array of human impulses both good and bad. It’s also in direct contradiction to your assertion that man is not inherently evil.

That doesn’t explain all the clergy who took vows of poverty and even died for their faith.

Yeah right. Look at all those Democrats taking vows of poverty and dying for what they believe in.

Discussing crises of faith is very common. There’s no tradition of “denying food” to people on the grounds that they’re not faithful.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
By what process do bacteria become resistant to antibiotics? Anyone know how the process works?[/quote]

No? Okay. Antibiotics kill off the vast majority of bacteria leaving alive only those that have(through random mutations) that have genetic resistance. This small group of survivors then replicate themselves as a new antibiotic resistant strain. This process is essentially…“natural selection”.[/quote]

I responded to your post on the last page.

Your tangent here is a…silly one…and illustrates your ignorance of the creation model.

Of all people here I expected more from you.
[/quote]

Tsk tsk. Have I been silly?

Microevolution demonstrates the process of natural selection that is played out on a larger scale(macroevolution). To accept microevolution is to accept the process by which organisms adapt to environmental changes.
[/quote]

Wrong. Microevolution describes changes to existing functions. Macroevolution describes organisms acquiring completely new functions. One has been observed. One has not.
[/quote]

Functions? What do you mean by functions?

By the way, this is a quote from a creationist apologetics site:

“Macro-evolution: Refers to large scale changes - where one species transforms into another completely different species. For example, birds are said to have evolved from dinosaurs. This process requires the addition of new information to the genetic codes.”

^^This is not correct. Birds did not “acquire new genetic material”. Existing genetic material underwent random mutations which were then selectively preserved. Over millions of years this process of selectively preserving mutations produces radically different organisms(speciation). Furthermore, the original genes are largely preserved and can be “switched on” again as demonstrated in the experiments with chicken embryos.

[/quote]

Gills to lungs. Fins to limbs. Membrane to skin. Skin to scales. Scales to hair. Hair to feathers. Limbs to wings. Hooves to feet. Etc. There would have been millions upon millions of organisms in the middle of these transitions. Many have claimed these transitions exist. Where are the fossils with one limb and one wing? One lung and gills? Two hooves or claws and two feet? Half scales and half feathers? Half scales and half skin? Billions and billions of fossils have been found. Show me links to pictures of these types of fossils?

[/quote]

Um…you do realise that human embryos have gills right? And that they have tails? Did you know that?