How to Adjust to Climate Change

“So that the number of intermediate and transitional links, between all living and extinct species, must have been inconceivably great. But assuredly, if this theory be true, such have lived upon the earth.” ?Why then is not every geological formation and every strata full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against my theory.? Darwin. Origin, Chapter Ten: On the Absence of intermediate varieties at the present day; On the nature of extinct intermediate varieties; On the lapse of time, as inferred from the rate of denudation and deposition.

“The evidence we find in the geologic record is not nearly as compatible with darwnian natural selection as we would like it to be. Darwin was completely aware of this. He was embarrassed by the fossil record because it didn’t look the way he predicted it would and, as a result, he devoted a long section of his Origin of Species to an attempt to explain and rationalize the differences. . . . Darwin’s general solution to the incompatibility of fossil evidence and his theory was to say that the fossil record is a very incomplete one. . . . Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn’t changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin’s time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information ? what appeared to be a nice simple progression when relatively few data were available now appears to be much more complex and much less gradualistic. So Darwin’s problem has not been alleviated” D.M. Raup, Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin 50 (1979): 22

“It is considered likely that all the animal phyla became distinct before or during the Cambrian, for they all appear fully formed, without intermediates connecting one form to another.” Douglas Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed. (Sunderland, Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates, Inc., 1986), p. 325

“Each of the phyla that developed durably skeletonized lineages during this period did so independently, suggesting that the opportunities for epifaunal life were open to a wide array of adaptive types. Furthermore, many of the durably skeletonized phyla appearing in Cambrian rocks are represented by a number of distinctrive subgroups, classes, or orders, that appear suddenly without known intermediates.” J.W. Valentine, “The Evolution of Complex Animals,” in What Darwin Began, ed. Laurie Godfrey (Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 1985), p. 267.

“The sudden appearance of diverse metazoan skeletal fossils heralds the beginning of the Phanerozoic [the Phanerozoic Age includes all of the fossil record from the Cambrian to the present] . . . there is little evidence that the capacity to form skeletons was acquired gradually or over a prolonged period. . . . A wide variety of skeleton types and most of the major marine invertebrate clades appear suddenly in the fossil record. . . . The ecological diversification of animals is equally dramatic. A wide variety of habitats were occupied by these biotas, from shallow to deep benthos and to the pelagic realm” J.H. Lipps and P. W. Signor, eds., Origin and Early Evolution of the Metazoa (New York: Plenum Press, 1992), pp. 7-8.

“If any event in life’s history resembles man’s creation myths, it is this sudden diversification of marine life when multicellular organisms took over as the dominant actors in ecology and evolution. Baffling (and embarrassing) to Darwin, this event still dazzles us and stands as a major biological revolution on a par with the invention of self-replication and the origin of the eukariotic cell. The animal phyla emerged out of the Precambrian mists with most of the attributes of their modern descendants.” Stefan Bengtson, Nature 345 (1990): 765.

“All three subdivisions of the bony fishes appear in the fossil record at approximately the same time. They are already widely divergent morphologically, and they are heavily armored. How did they originate? What allowed them to diverge so widely? How did they all come to have heavy armor? And why is there no trace of earlier intermediate forms?” G.T. Todd, American Zoology 20 (4, 1980): 757.

“Reconstructing the ancestry of a clan like the pterodactyls remains an especially difficult challenge. Flying dragons seem to burst into the world like Athena from the mind of Zeus, fully formed. Even the earliest skeletons of pterodactyls already display fully developed wings and the specialized torso and hips so characteristic of the entire order. . . . As of today, no fossils have been discovered to show how the pterodactyl’s forelimbs became transformed into wings.” Robert T. Bakker, The Dinosaur Heresies (New York: Zebra Books, Kensington Publishing Corp., 1986) pp. 296?297.

“Archaeopteryx probably cannot tell us much about the early origins of feathers and flight in true protobirds because Archaeopteryx was, in a modern sense, a bird.” Alan Feduccia, Science 259 (1993): 792.

“the processes underlying evolutionary innovation are remarkably poorly understood, which leaves us at a surprising conundrum: while biologists have made great progress over the past century and a half in understanding how existing traits diversify, we have made relatively little progress in understanding how novel traits come into being in the first place.” “The origin of novel features continues to be a fascinating and challenging topic in evolutionary biology.”-- Moczek, Armin P. May 2008. On the origins of novelty in development and evolution. BioEssays, Vol. 30, Issue 5, pp. 409-512.

“There is a striking lack of correspondence between genetic and evolutionary change. Neo-Darwinian theory predicts a steady, slow continuous, accumulation of mutations (microevolution) that produces a progressive change in morphology leading to new species, genera, and so on (macroevolution). But macroevolution now appears to be full of discontinuities (punctuated evolution), so we have a mismatch of some importance. That is, the fossil record shows mostly stasis, or lack of change, in a species for many millions of years; there is no evidence there for gradual change even though, in theory, there must be a gradual accumulation of mutations at the micro level.” Richard C. Strohman. March 1997. The coming Kuhnian revolution in biology. Nature Biotechnology, Vol. 15, pp. 194-200.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Show me a single fossil (not an artists rendering of what he thinks an animal looked like based off a scrap of found bone or blatant frauds like The Nebraska or Piltdown Man) that definitively shows the transition between any two species.
[/quote]

[/quote]

Wikipedia says “Attercopus fimbriunguis is not a spider, but it is probably close to the type of animals which did give rise to modern spiders today.” Note the important word in that sentence. Would an attorney present as evidence a gun he randomly found on the ground by saying this is not the murder weapon but is probably close in appearance to the one that is? This example is not an anomaly either.

Evolutionist RL Carroll writes in “The Primary Radiation Of Terrestrial Vertebrates” this: “no fossils are known that can be considered intermediate between these clearly aquatic fish and genera that are unequivocally classified as terrestrial vertebrates.” Yet Wikipedia has a whole list of fossils purporting this. Such as this gem: “Eusthenopteron- Though not on the evolutionary path to tetrapods, Eusthenopteron is of fairly general build and is very well known, serving as an iconic model organism in tetrapod evolution”

[/quote]

You said “any two species.” There are ample examples on the list.

BTW, the belief in “new Earth Creationism” is a misreading of the Torah by people who can’t read it and have little or no knowledge of the Oral Law.
[/quote]

I appreciate your knowledge of the Torah but would point out I am not arguing on the time frame of the creation of the Earth but only the mechanisms of the creation of living things on that Earth.

Ah, a copied and pasted Gish gallop cobbled together of cherry-picked and outdated quotes. Fan-fucking-tastic.

Before I proceed (and it may not be until tomorrow), it is implied, by your quoting him, that, for example, the words of Douglas Futuyma are to be taken as authoritative. Yes? Otherwise you cannot enter his words into a debate in such a way as to cite them as evidence of a position you’re taking. Yes?

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
“So that the number of intermediate and transitional links, between all living and extinct species, must have been inconceivably great. But assuredly, if this theory be true, such have lived upon the earth.” ?Why then is not every geological formation and every strata full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against my theory.? Darwin. Origin, Chapter Ten: On the Absence of intermediate varieties at the present day; On the nature of extinct intermediate varieties; On the lapse of time, as inferred from the rate of denudation and deposition.

“The evidence we find in the geologic record is not nearly as compatible with darwnian natural selection as we would like it to be. Darwin was completely aware of this. He was embarrassed by the fossil record because it didn’t look the way he predicted it would and, as a result, he devoted a long section of his Origin of Species to an attempt to explain and rationalize the differences. . . . Darwin’s general solution to the incompatibility of fossil evidence and his theory was to say that the fossil record is a very incomplete one. . . . Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn’t changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin’s time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information ? what appeared to be a nice simple progression when relatively few data were available now appears to be much more complex and much less gradualistic. So Darwin’s problem has not been alleviated” D.M. Raup, Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin 50 (1979): 22

“It is considered likely that all the animal phyla became distinct before or during the Cambrian, for they all appear fully formed, without intermediates connecting one form to another.” Douglas Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed. (Sunderland, Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates, Inc., 1986), p. 325

“Each of the phyla that developed durably skeletonized lineages during this period did so independently, suggesting that the opportunities for epifaunal life were open to a wide array of adaptive types. Furthermore, many of the durably skeletonized phyla appearing in Cambrian rocks are represented by a number of distinctrive subgroups, classes, or orders, that appear suddenly without known intermediates.” J.W. Valentine, “The Evolution of Complex Animals,” in What Darwin Began, ed. Laurie Godfrey (Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 1985), p. 267.

“The sudden appearance of diverse metazoan skeletal fossils heralds the beginning of the Phanerozoic [the Phanerozoic Age includes all of the fossil record from the Cambrian to the present] . . . there is little evidence that the capacity to form skeletons was acquired gradually or over a prolonged period. . . . A wide variety of skeleton types and most of the major marine invertebrate clades appear suddenly in the fossil record. . . . The ecological diversification of animals is equally dramatic. A wide variety of habitats were occupied by these biotas, from shallow to deep benthos and to the pelagic realm” J.H. Lipps and P. W. Signor, eds., Origin and Early Evolution of the Metazoa (New York: Plenum Press, 1992), pp. 7-8.

“If any event in life’s history resembles man’s creation myths, it is this sudden diversification of marine life when multicellular organisms took over as the dominant actors in ecology and evolution. Baffling (and embarrassing) to Darwin, this event still dazzles us and stands as a major biological revolution on a par with the invention of self-replication and the origin of the eukariotic cell. The animal phyla emerged out of the Precambrian mists with most of the attributes of their modern descendants.” Stefan Bengtson, Nature 345 (1990): 765.

“All three subdivisions of the bony fishes appear in the fossil record at approximately the same time. They are already widely divergent morphologically, and they are heavily armored. How did they originate? What allowed them to diverge so widely? How did they all come to have heavy armor? And why is there no trace of earlier intermediate forms?” G.T. Todd, American Zoology 20 (4, 1980): 757.

“Reconstructing the ancestry of a clan like the pterodactyls remains an especially difficult challenge. Flying dragons seem to burst into the world like Athena from the mind of Zeus, fully formed. Even the earliest skeletons of pterodactyls already display fully developed wings and the specialized torso and hips so characteristic of the entire order. . . . As of today, no fossils have been discovered to show how the pterodactyl’s forelimbs became transformed into wings.” Robert T. Bakker, The Dinosaur Heresies (New York: Zebra Books, Kensington Publishing Corp., 1986) pp. 296?297.

“Archaeopteryx probably cannot tell us much about the early origins of feathers and flight in true protobirds because Archaeopteryx was, in a modern sense, a bird.” Alan Feduccia, Science 259 (1993): 792.

“the processes underlying evolutionary innovation are remarkably poorly understood, which leaves us at a surprising conundrum: while biologists have made great progress over the past century and a half in understanding how existing traits diversify, we have made relatively little progress in understanding how novel traits come into being in the first place.” “The origin of novel features continues to be a fascinating and challenging topic in evolutionary biology.”-- Moczek, Armin P. May 2008. On the origins of novelty in development and evolution. BioEssays, Vol. 30, Issue 5, pp. 409-512.

“There is a striking lack of correspondence between genetic and evolutionary change. Neo-Darwinian theory predicts a steady, slow continuous, accumulation of mutations (microevolution) that produces a progressive change in morphology leading to new species, genera, and so on (macroevolution). But macroevolution now appears to be full of discontinuities (punctuated evolution), so we have a mismatch of some importance. That is, the fossil record shows mostly stasis, or lack of change, in a species for many millions of years; there is no evidence there for gradual change even though, in theory, there must be a gradual accumulation of mutations at the micro level.” Richard C. Strohman. March 1997. The coming Kuhnian revolution in biology. Nature Biotechnology, Vol. 15, pp. 194-200.

[/quote]

All of the works you have cited are from authors in the punctuated equilibrium camp. This model of evolution is absolutely a macro one, and diametrically opposed to your belief that cladogenesis does not occur. Your citations don’t support creationism in the least. Indeed, they do the opposite.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
Show me a single fossil (not an artists rendering of what he thinks an animal looked like based off a scrap of found bone or blatant frauds like The Nebraska or Piltdown Man) that definitively shows the transition between any two species.
[/quote]

[/quote]

Wikipedia says “Attercopus fimbriunguis is not a spider, but it is probably close to the type of animals which did give rise to modern spiders today.” Note the important word in that sentence. Would an attorney present as evidence a gun he randomly found on the ground by saying this is not the murder weapon but is probably close in appearance to the one that is? This example is not an anomaly either.

Evolutionist RL Carroll writes in “The Primary Radiation Of Terrestrial Vertebrates” this: “no fossils are known that can be considered intermediate between these clearly aquatic fish and genera that are unequivocally classified as terrestrial vertebrates.” Yet Wikipedia has a whole list of fossils purporting this. Such as this gem: “Eusthenopteron- Though not on the evolutionary path to tetrapods, Eusthenopteron is of fairly general build and is very well known, serving as an iconic model organism in tetrapod evolution”

[/quote]

You said “any two species.” There are ample examples on the list.

BTW, the belief in “new Earth Creationism” is a misreading of the Torah by people who can’t read it and have little or no knowledge of the Oral Law.
[/quote]

I appreciate your knowledge of the Torah but would point out I am not arguing on the time frame of the creation of the Earth but only the mechanisms of the creation of living things on that Earth.
[/quote]

You still haven’t put forth a cogent argument laying out your conception of the origins of life on earth.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Ah, a copied and pasted Gish gallop cobbled together of cherry-picked and outdated quotes. Fan-fucking-tastic.

Before I proceed (and it may not be until tomorrow), it is implied, by your quoting him, that, for example, the words of Douglas Futuyma are to be taken as authoritative. Yes? Otherwise you cannot enter his words into a debate in such a way as to cite them as evidence of a position you’re taking. Yes?[/quote]

Feel free to offer sourced information describing examples of fossils known to be in a transformative state between one species and another (macroevolution). I am not interested in nor will I engage in debate on whether or not you think one of my sources is authoritative or not. Failure to do so will imply that you cannot.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Ah, a copied and pasted Gish gallop cobbled together of cherry-picked and outdated quotes. Fan-fucking-tastic.

Before I proceed (and it may not be until tomorrow), it is implied, by your quoting him, that, for example, the words of Douglas Futuyma are to be taken as authoritative. Yes? Otherwise you cannot enter his words into a debate in such a way as to cite them as evidence of a position you’re taking. Yes?[/quote]

Feel free to offer sourced information describing examples of fossils known to be in a transformative state between one species and another (macroevolution). I am not interested in nor will I engage in debate on whether or not you think one of my sources is authoritative or not. Failure to do so will imply that you cannot.
[/quote]

As your failure to offer a single specific piece of evidence in favor of Gen 2:7 implied inability over the last day or so. Yes: Agreed. Fear not.

But you seriously misunderstand me. I am asking you a prefatory question regarding logic (and hoping for an affirmative answer, which is the correct answer): given that you have cited (or cherry-picked, or copied somebody else’s cherry-pick of) the words of these scientists, and given that you are using their words – with the implication that their words are true – in evidence of your point, it follows by logical necessity that the words of Douglas Futuyma, for example, are to be taken as authoritative here in this thread. Yes?

[quote]Bismark wrote:

All of the works you have cited are from authors in the punctuated equilibrium camp. This model of evolution is absolutely a macro one, and diametrically opposed to your belief that cladogenesis does not occur. Your citations don’t support creationism in the least. Indeed, they do the opposite.
[/quote]

My citations support what I said. The fossil record shows little to no evidence of macro-evolution. The fossil record shows animal species fully formed. This problem is so apparent that evolutionists have to attempt to explain it away. If it wasn’t so, they would not even bother to address it.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
“So that the number of intermediate and transitional links, between all living and extinct species, must have been inconceivably great. But assuredly, if this theory be true, such have lived upon the earth.” ?Why then is not every geological formation and every strata full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against my theory.? Darwin. Origin, Chapter Ten: On the Absence of intermediate varieties at the present day; On the nature of extinct intermediate varieties; On the lapse of time, as inferred from the rate of denudation and deposition.

“The evidence we find in the geologic record is not nearly as compatible with darwnian natural selection as we would like it to be. Darwin was completely aware of this. He was embarrassed by the fossil record because it didn’t look the way he predicted it would and, as a result, he devoted a long section of his Origin of Species to an attempt to explain and rationalize the differences. . . . Darwin’s general solution to the incompatibility of fossil evidence and his theory was to say that the fossil record is a very incomplete one. . . . Well, we are now about 120 years after Darwin and the knowledge of the fossil record has been greatly expanded. We now have a quarter of a million fossil species but the situation hasn’t changed much. The record of evolution is still surprisingly jerky and, ironically, we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we had in Darwin’s time. By this I mean that some of the classic cases of darwinian change in the fossil record, such as the evolution of the horse in North America, have had to be discarded or modified as a result of more detailed information ? what appeared to be a nice simple progression when relatively few data were available now appears to be much more complex and much less gradualistic. So Darwin’s problem has not been alleviated” D.M. Raup, Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin 50 (1979): 22

“It is considered likely that all the animal phyla became distinct before or during the Cambrian, for they all appear fully formed, without intermediates connecting one form to another.” Douglas Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed. (Sunderland, Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates, Inc., 1986), p. 325

“Each of the phyla that developed durably skeletonized lineages during this period did so independently, suggesting that the opportunities for epifaunal life were open to a wide array of adaptive types. Furthermore, many of the durably skeletonized phyla appearing in Cambrian rocks are represented by a number of distinctrive subgroups, classes, or orders, that appear suddenly without known intermediates.” J.W. Valentine, “The Evolution of Complex Animals,” in What Darwin Began, ed. Laurie Godfrey (Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 1985), p. 267.

“The sudden appearance of diverse metazoan skeletal fossils heralds the beginning of the Phanerozoic [the Phanerozoic Age includes all of the fossil record from the Cambrian to the present] . . . there is little evidence that the capacity to form skeletons was acquired gradually or over a prolonged period. . . . A wide variety of skeleton types and most of the major marine invertebrate clades appear suddenly in the fossil record. . . . The ecological diversification of animals is equally dramatic. A wide variety of habitats were occupied by these biotas, from shallow to deep benthos and to the pelagic realm” J.H. Lipps and P. W. Signor, eds., Origin and Early Evolution of the Metazoa (New York: Plenum Press, 1992), pp. 7-8.

“If any event in life’s history resembles man’s creation myths, it is this sudden diversification of marine life when multicellular organisms took over as the dominant actors in ecology and evolution. Baffling (and embarrassing) to Darwin, this event still dazzles us and stands as a major biological revolution on a par with the invention of self-replication and the origin of the eukariotic cell. The animal phyla emerged out of the Precambrian mists with most of the attributes of their modern descendants.” Stefan Bengtson, Nature 345 (1990): 765.

“All three subdivisions of the bony fishes appear in the fossil record at approximately the same time. They are already widely divergent morphologically, and they are heavily armored. How did they originate? What allowed them to diverge so widely? How did they all come to have heavy armor? And why is there no trace of earlier intermediate forms?” G.T. Todd, American Zoology 20 (4, 1980): 757.

“Reconstructing the ancestry of a clan like the pterodactyls remains an especially difficult challenge. Flying dragons seem to burst into the world like Athena from the mind of Zeus, fully formed. Even the earliest skeletons of pterodactyls already display fully developed wings and the specialized torso and hips so characteristic of the entire order. . . . As of today, no fossils have been discovered to show how the pterodactyl’s forelimbs became transformed into wings.” Robert T. Bakker, The Dinosaur Heresies (New York: Zebra Books, Kensington Publishing Corp., 1986) pp. 296?297.

“Archaeopteryx probably cannot tell us much about the early origins of feathers and flight in true protobirds because Archaeopteryx was, in a modern sense, a bird.” Alan Feduccia, Science 259 (1993): 792.

“the processes underlying evolutionary innovation are remarkably poorly understood, which leaves us at a surprising conundrum: while biologists have made great progress over the past century and a half in understanding how existing traits diversify, we have made relatively little progress in understanding how novel traits come into being in the first place.” “The origin of novel features continues to be a fascinating and challenging topic in evolutionary biology.”-- Moczek, Armin P. May 2008. On the origins of novelty in development and evolution. BioEssays, Vol. 30, Issue 5, pp. 409-512.

“There is a striking lack of correspondence between genetic and evolutionary change. Neo-Darwinian theory predicts a steady, slow continuous, accumulation of mutations (microevolution) that produces a progressive change in morphology leading to new species, genera, and so on (macroevolution). But macroevolution now appears to be full of discontinuities (punctuated evolution), so we have a mismatch of some importance. That is, the fossil record shows mostly stasis, or lack of change, in a species for many millions of years; there is no evidence there for gradual change even though, in theory, there must be a gradual accumulation of mutations at the micro level.” Richard C. Strohman. March 1997. The coming Kuhnian revolution in biology. Nature Biotechnology, Vol. 15, pp. 194-200.

[/quote]

All of the works you have cited are from authors in the punctuated equilibrium camp. This model of evolution is absolutely a macro one, and diametrically opposed to your belief that cladogenesis does not occur. Your citations don’t support creationism in the least. Indeed, they do the opposite.
[/quote]

Yes indeed. An old fashioned creationist cherry-pick of people who are all proposing a particular brand of macroevolution which was popular for a while. We’ve all seen this kind of thing many, many times before. Incidentally, it’s a tactic which has been shit on by the very people whose words are being cherry-picked.

The good thing is that it’s got a very easy and very logical refutation.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Ah, a copied and pasted Gish gallop cobbled together of cherry-picked and outdated quotes. Fan-fucking-tastic.

Before I proceed (and it may not be until tomorrow), it is implied, by your quoting him, that, for example, the words of Douglas Futuyma are to be taken as authoritative. Yes? Otherwise you cannot enter his words into a debate in such a way as to cite them as evidence of a position you’re taking. Yes?[/quote]

Feel free to offer sourced information describing examples of fossils known to be in a transformative state between one species and another (macroevolution). I am not interested in nor will I engage in debate on whether or not you think one of my sources is authoritative or not. Failure to do so will imply that you cannot.
[/quote]

As your failure to offer a single specific piece of evidence in favor of Gen 2:7 implied inability over the last day or so. Yes: Agreed. Fear not.

But you seriously misunderstand me. I am asking you a prefatory question regarding logic (and hoping for an affirmative answer, which is the correct answer): given that you have cited (or cherry-picked, or copied somebody else’s cherry-pick of) the words of these scientists, and given that you are using their words – with the implication that their words are true – in evidence of your point, it follows by logical necessity that the words of Douglas Futuyma, for example, are to be taken as authoritative here in this thread. Yes?[/quote]

Are you daft? The fossil record, of which there are billions, shows fully formed species with little to no evidence of transformation from one species to another (Your position). The fossil records provide evidence that fully formed species simply came into being (My position).

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Ah, a copied and pasted Gish gallop cobbled together of cherry-picked and outdated quotes. Fan-fucking-tastic.

Before I proceed (and it may not be until tomorrow), it is implied, by your quoting him, that, for example, the words of Douglas Futuyma are to be taken as authoritative. Yes? Otherwise you cannot enter his words into a debate in such a way as to cite them as evidence of a position you’re taking. Yes?[/quote]

Feel free to offer sourced information describing examples of fossils known to be in a transformative state between one species and another (macroevolution). I am not interested in nor will I engage in debate on whether or not you think one of my sources is authoritative or not. Failure to do so will imply that you cannot.
[/quote]

As your failure to offer a single specific piece of evidence in favor of Gen 2:7 implied inability over the last day or so. Yes: Agreed. Fear not.

But you seriously misunderstand me. I am asking you a prefatory question regarding logic (and hoping for an affirmative answer, which is the correct answer): given that you have cited (or cherry-picked, or copied somebody else’s cherry-pick of) the words of these scientists, and given that you are using their words – with the implication that their words are true – in evidence of your point, it follows by logical necessity that the words of Douglas Futuyma, for example, are to be taken as authoritative here in this thread. Yes?[/quote]

Are you daft? The fossil record, of which there are billions, shows fully formed species with little to no evidence of transformation from one species to another (Your position). The fossil records provide evidence that fully formed species simply came into being (My position).

[/quote]

I asked you a question.

We’re getting to your “evidence” (Oh, by the way, none of that is specific direct evidence for Gen 2:7. But anyway, that’s all moot now. Answer the question.)

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

Yes indeed. An old fashioned creationist cherry-pick of people who are all proposing a particular brand of macroevolution which was popular for a while. We’ve all seen this kind of thing many, many times before. Incidentally, it’s a tactic which has been shit on by the very people whose words are being cherry-picked.

The good thing is that it’s got a very easy and very logical refutation.
[/quote]

I hope you are talking about actual evidence as opposed to hypothetical scenarios constructed in an attempt to explain away the appalling lack of physical evidence.

In case you don’t understand, evidence against macro-evolution would then support an intelligent design model.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

Yes indeed. An old fashioned creationist cherry-pick of people who are all proposing a particular brand of macroevolution which was popular for a while. We’ve all seen this kind of thing many, many times before. Incidentally, it’s a tactic which has been shit on by the very people whose words are being cherry-picked.

The good thing is that it’s got a very easy and very logical refutation.
[/quote]

I hope you are talking about actual evidence as opposed to hypothetical scenarios constructed in an attempt to explain away the appalling lack of physical evidence.
[/quote]

The main methodological difference between you and the evolutionist is that you begin with a predetermined conclusion, and then go onto cherry-pick and manipulate “evidence” to confirm your ideological biases. You are so blinded by your ideology that you are unable to understand that the very sources your position rests upon are asserting the validity of cladogenesis. There is nothing scientific or intellectually honest about creationism.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
In case you don’t understand, evidence against macro-evolution would then support an intelligent design model.[/quote]

No, it would support a “we have no idea” model. And certainly not Gen 2:7, about which I think we can all now agree you have proved yourself incapable of even speaking at all. This is to say nothing of directly and specifically evidencing. (A strange thing to believe as literal truth, one you can’t even talk about.) But anyhow, let’s stick with the Gish gallop you pasted. I remind you for a second time now that I asked you a question.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

Yes indeed. An old fashioned creationist cherry-pick of people who are all proposing a particular brand of macroevolution which was popular for a while. We’ve all seen this kind of thing many, many times before. Incidentally, it’s a tactic which has been shit on by the very people whose words are being cherry-picked.

The good thing is that it’s got a very easy and very logical refutation.
[/quote]

I hope you are talking about actual evidence as opposed to hypothetical scenarios constructed in an attempt to explain away the appalling lack of physical evidence.
[/quote]

The creationist is illogical, but he is far more unscientific than he is illogical. So logic is a great weapon – not that science isn’t. It’s just that you have never read the science, the actual science. You have only read it as filtered by the many unscientific (or I should say antiscientific) resources for the creationist, which, by the way, are not even taken seriously enough by the scientific community for the latter to spend time criticizing the former.

But anyway, I’d like to get on with it, so I await your response.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
In case you don’t understand, evidence against macro-evolution would then support an intelligent design model.[/quote]

No, it would support a “we have no idea” model. And certainly not Gen 2:7, about which I think we can all now agree you have proved yourself incapable of even speaking at all. This is to say nothing of directly and specifically evidencing. (A strange thing to believe as literal truth, one you can’t even talk about.) But anyhow, let’s stick with the Gish gallop you pasted. I remind you for a second time now that I asked you a question.[/quote]

I thought we were debating macro-evolution vs intelligent design? I provided evidence different kinds of life forms appear in the fossil record fully formed as if they were created as requested. This creation includes mankind. It is now up to you to provide evidence contrary. Stop trying to change the focus of the debate.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

Yes indeed. An old fashioned creationist cherry-pick of people who are all proposing a particular brand of macroevolution which was popular for a while. We’ve all seen this kind of thing many, many times before. Incidentally, it’s a tactic which has been shit on by the very people whose words are being cherry-picked.

The good thing is that it’s got a very easy and very logical refutation.
[/quote]

I hope you are talking about actual evidence as opposed to hypothetical scenarios constructed in an attempt to explain away the appalling lack of physical evidence.
[/quote]

The main methodological difference between you and the evolutionist is that you begin with a predetermined conclusion, and then go onto cherry-pick and manipulate “evidence” to confirm your ideological biases. You are so blinded by your ideology that you are unable to understand that the very sources your position rests upon are asserting the validity of cladogenesis. There is nothing scientific or intellectually honest about creationism. [/quote]

Ad hominems are so weak. It would seem your ideology has blinded you to the fact these sources I cited believe in something they admit the fossil record shows no evidence of.

I’m not sure how this debate requires the creationist to provide evidence. The creationist makes no claims. The creationist merely says that what is, is. The claims-makers are evolutionists. Now, if a creationist argues that his religion should be called science, then I agree that he is making a claim. Many(most?) creationists are happy to acknowledge that their beliefs are not scientific; the problem is that evolutionists claim that their religion is.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
In case you don’t understand, evidence against macro-evolution would then support an intelligent design model.[/quote]

No, it would support a “we have no idea” model. And certainly not Gen 2:7, about which I think we can all now agree you have proved yourself incapable of even speaking at all. This is to say nothing of directly and specifically evidencing. (A strange thing to believe as literal truth, one you can’t even talk about.) But anyhow, let’s stick with the Gish gallop you pasted. I remind you for a second time now that I asked you a question.[/quote]

I thought we were debating macro-evolution vs intelligent design? I provided evidence different kinds of life forms appear in the fossil record fully formed as if they were created as requested. This creation includes mankind. It is now up to you to provide evidence contrary. Stop trying to change the focus of the debate.
[/quote]

I am not trying to change the focus of anything. And our disagreement has been clear since the utter outset.

More importantly, I have now asked you a question four separate times, with the explanation that it is prefatory to my response to your post.

I will wait.