How to Adjust to Climate Change

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:
@smh. The argument put forth by the evolutionist is conjecture. He can’t duplicate abiogenesis even under the most favorable of lab conditions, he cannot create energy from nothing, there is no fossil record explaining the gaps between single-celled organisms and invertebrates, the odds that repeated mutations repeatedly helped, not harmed, life forms is so high against that it is not calculable, the switch from efficient asexual to the inefficient sexual reproduction method is unlikely, and a plethora of other problems that cannot be resolved scientifically. He could drone on for hours without ever answering these important questions.

There is ample research and papers written supporting the idea of intelligent design all easily found online. Your claim the Creationist has only the Bible to reference indicates ignorance or disingenuousness. Are you really ignorant of the Nye-Ham debate? Or of Google?

The difference between the evolutionist and the Creationist is that one believes impossible things happened repeatedly by random chance in the face of infinitesimally overwhelming odds and the other believes it happened by design. Neither one can scientifically reproduce what they believe.[/quote]

This is a trial. That we don’t have video evidence of the murder, and can’t recreate it, does not mean that we can’t weigh evidence and attempt to adjudicate. If you disagree, then please say so, because that concludes the proceedings.

Now, if you read my last post carefully, you will see that I am well aware of the incompleteness of the theory of evolution (as I said, we have argued the points here many times before). What you should become aware of is the fact that incompleteness is not incorrectness. Surely you are aware that the evolutionist has a case to make. I am not talking about complete proof, I am talking about a case.

What I am asking you – and you are doing a valiant job of pretending not to notice the question – is what case you have to make. It is important here, as it is always and everywhere, to think specifically. The direct and specific Biblical competitor to abiogenesis/evolution is Genesis 2:7, the account of man’s origin. What evidence, external to the passage itself, gives us the slightest reason to believe that “the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” What evidence suggests that, of all the competing accounts of man’s origin, this is the one to which the rational observer is compelled to subscribe?

Again, the evolutionist makes his case, offers the specific evidence which directly supports (note, again, the absence of the word “proves”) his hypothesis (and please don’t suggest to me that he would stand there in silence; we all know what he would say, and we have all been through the debates a hundred times before). And now it’s your turn. You make a claim: “The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” And now you tell us your specific, direct evidence. What is it?[/quote]

I just told you there is no specific direct reproducible evidence supporting either position. I base my disagreement with evolution on the fact that it relies on numerous repeated acts of random chance with odds so unlikely that many cannot even be calculated. How do you ignore the lack of any transitory fossil records, the Cambrian explosion, the lack of new animal body forms since the Cambrian explosion, genetic coding, biogenesis, the circular reasoning of fossil dating, C-14 found in coal and diamonds, and a host of others? How did fully functional respiratory systems appear suddenly? The odds that just our galaxy was accidentally formed in such a way that it made it possible for life to “accidentally” form on Earth is alone evidence for Creation.

If this narrative isn’t both “full of conjecture and is vastly incomplete”, I don’t know what is.

The four mechanisms of evolution, all of which are random. The pictures should keep the attention of creationists.

Let’s assume evolution. Let’s assume that the Miller-Urey experiment was flawless. Let’s explain the origin of the chemicals or elements(the building blocks, whatever) that existed in the beginning.

Any possible explanation for the beginning must explain how absolutely nothing became something. It seems to me that if your explanation can’t do that, you are relying purely on faith. My small mind can’t comprehend the origin of anything from absolutely nothing, so I’m left believing that God created this world in which we live. The facts that I can’t comprehend a single atom arising from nothing and no macroevolution has ever been observed lead me to faithfully disagree with the theory of evolution.

The question is: Would something whose mere existence defies everything that we think we know be able to basically blink the known world into being, or would that something need random chance to improve upon the rational impossibility of its own existence?

[quote]Bismark wrote:

If this narrative isn’t both “full of conjecture and is vastly incomplete”, I don’t know what is.

The four mechanisms of evolution, all of which are random. The pictures should keep the attention of creationists.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIBMechanismsofchange.shtml[/quote]

How does species adaption (pictured in your cartoon)refute the fact that evolution relies on the belief that everything happened perfectly by chance? Can you show any evidence of one species evolving into an entirely different species? How did the relatively simple genetic material of the early single-cell organisms contain the forethought to create the theretofore unknown genetic code needed to not only thrive in their environment but reproduce, obtain energy, and mutate into separate previously unknown species?

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

If this narrative isn’t both “full of conjecture and is vastly incomplete”, I don’t know what is.

The four mechanisms of evolution, all of which are random. The pictures should keep the attention of creationists.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIBMechanismsofchange.shtml[/quote]

How does species adaption (pictured in your cartoon)refute the fact that evolution relies on the belief that everything happened perfectly by chance? Can you show any evidence of one species evolving into an entirely different species? How did the relatively simple genetic material of the early single-cell organisms contain the forethought to create the theretofore unknown genetic code needed to not only thrive in their environment but reproduce, obtain energy, and mutate into separate previously unknown species?
[/quote]

Are you denying that cladogenesis has been proven to occur? Humans created the various breeds of domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) through artificial selection of the wolf (Canis lupus).

[quote]NickViar wrote:
Let’s assume evolution. Let’s assume that the Miller-Urey experiment was flawless. Let’s explain the origin of the chemicals or elements(the building blocks, whatever) that existed in the beginning. Any possible explanation for the beginning must explain how absolutely nothing became something. It seems to me that if your explanation can’t do that, you are relying purely on faith. My small mind can’t comprehend the origin of anything from absolutely nothing, so I’m left believing that God created this world in which we live. The facts that I can’t comprehend a single atom arising from nothing and no macroevolution has ever been observed lead me to faithfully disagree with the theory of evolution.

The question is: Would something whose mere existence defies everything that we think we know be able to basically blink the known world into being, or would that something need random chance to improve upon the rational impossibility of its own existence?[/quote]

Humans themselves have facilitated macroevolution. See my post above.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

If this narrative isn’t both “full of conjecture and is vastly incomplete”, I don’t know what is.

The four mechanisms of evolution, all of which are random. The pictures should keep the attention of creationists.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIBMechanismsofchange.shtml[/quote]

How does species adaption (pictured in your cartoon)refute the fact that evolution relies on the belief that everything happened perfectly by chance? Can you show any evidence of one species evolving into an entirely different species? How did the relatively simple genetic material of the early single-cell organisms contain the forethought to create the theretofore unknown genetic code needed to not only thrive in their environment but reproduce, obtain energy, and mutate into separate previously unknown species?
[/quote]

Are you denying that cladogenesis has been proven to occur? Humans created the various breeds of domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) through artificial selection of the wolf (Canis lupus).

[/quote]

Absolutely. Domestic dogs and wolves are the same species. Diversity among kinds is a given and no one disputes that. There is not one single fossil record displaying the transformation of one species to another which must have occurred according to evolution. Not a single one.

Are you denying the paucity of evidence showing animals in a transformative state from one species to another?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
I should add this to my last post:

I am talking about a specific claim (Gen 2:7) which pretends to describe the specific chain of events whereby human life came to exist. This, as I have said more than a few times now, is abiogenesis/evolution’s direct competitor, and any evidence offered in its support should actually, specifically, and directly support it. That is, a logical argument from contingency, for example, is not going to even remotely do the trick (and wouldn’t be proved anyway).[/quote]

Can you offer from your position what you so desperately yearn for from the other side?
[/quote]

Great question. A prefatory note:

The standard of evidence was…

“…what evidence…gives us the slightest reason to believe…”

“…Send me anywhere – send me to a Wikipedia page – that specifically evidences and/or suggests the mere possibility of…”

So why don’t you tell me whether or not you think I can offer that for which I asked?

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

Do I believe that species adapt and change according to their environment? Yes. Do I believe all life evolved from a single-celled organism? No. More power to you if you choose to believe you are nothing more than a talking monkey.
[/quote]

You don’t understand the theory of evolution. Exempli gratia, natural selection does not grant organisms what they “need”; it is dictated by blind chance. It is untenable to accept microevolution (trait evolution) while rejecting macroevolution (speciation). The processes are essentially the same, and are differentiated by the time-span required. The findings of all divisions of science support the validity of evolution. By rejecting it, you are rejecting the entirety of the scientific literature by extension.

Humans are primates. If you reject this, you may as well reject the theory of gravity. Physical and genetic analysis indicates that Homo sapiens has a very close relationship to another group of primate species, the apes. Humans didn’t descend directly from the great apes species; which includes chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas. They do, however, share a common ancestor that lived between 8 and 6 million years ago. Early human species lived between 6 and 2 million years ago. Prior to Homo sapiens, there existed 15 to 20 different species of early humans, from which we are directly descended. Modern humans are a very young species, having existed for only 200,000 years. Do you also reject the existence of these early human species, of which there is a plethora of concrete evidence?

[/quote]

I would like you to explain to me why all of the so-called predictions have been wrong.

The Alarmists say the science is on their side, while the Deniers have the facts on their side.

If natural selection is based on blind chance as you mentioned, then from what intellectual footing do Alarmists base their opinion on ?

We were told that we would have more hurricanes since Katrina, while there have been very few. We were told the polar bears would be nearly gone, while their populations have increased. We were told our planet would continue to warm while last winter was one of the coldest in recent years.

How many mistakes need to be made by Alarmists before it becomes apparent that no one understands how the planet behaves ?
[/quote]

What the fuck does evolution have to do with global climate change? [/quote]

That’s a funny question coming from you in light of this recent exchange:

cwill1973 wrote:
Has there been a single man-made global warming hypothesis that has become a scientific theory or law?

Bismark wrote:
The vast majority of climatologists believe that there is quite a bit of evidence supporting global climate change. Do you recognize the theory of evolution?
[/quote]

The problem is, with all respect, you don’t understand the magnitude of what a theory or law is in the scientific sense. There are a LOT of very well regarded ideas that have not been codified into theories or laws. The lack of being labeled a “theory” or “law” in the scientific circle is not equal nor indicative of a lack of substance of the idea…or its observed empirical evidence.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

Do I believe that species adapt and change according to their environment? Yes. Do I believe all life evolved from a single-celled organism? No. More power to you if you choose to believe you are nothing more than a talking monkey.
[/quote]

You don’t understand the theory of evolution. Exempli gratia, natural selection does not grant organisms what they “need”; it is dictated by blind chance. It is untenable to accept microevolution (trait evolution) while rejecting macroevolution (speciation). The processes are essentially the same, and are differentiated by the time-span required. The findings of all divisions of science support the validity of evolution. By rejecting it, you are rejecting the entirety of the scientific literature by extension.

Humans are primates. If you reject this, you may as well reject the theory of gravity. Physical and genetic analysis indicates that Homo sapiens has a very close relationship to another group of primate species, the apes. Humans didn’t descend directly from the great apes species; which includes chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas. They do, however, share a common ancestor that lived between 8 and 6 million years ago. Early human species lived between 6 and 2 million years ago. Prior to Homo sapiens, there existed 15 to 20 different species of early humans, from which we are directly descended. Modern humans are a very young species, having existed for only 200,000 years. Do you also reject the existence of these early human species, of which there is a plethora of concrete evidence?

[/quote]

I would like you to explain to me why all of the so-called predictions have been wrong.

The Alarmists say the science is on their side, while the Deniers have the facts on their side.

We were told that we would have more hurricanes since Katrina, while there have been very few. We were told the polar bears would be nearly gone, while their populations have increased. We were told our planet would continue to warm while last winter was one of the coldest in recent years.

How many mistakes need to be made by Alarmists before it becomes apparent that no one understands how the planet behaves ?
[/quote]

Your issue here max is that you are dividing the argument into 2 camps of extremists. This is not the case with most scientists, although most of them are handily labeled as one of the two for media purposes or “newsworthy” bits. The world is not split into Alarmists and Deniers–some of the people who have done some of the best critical studies of AGW alarmism are not deniers in the sense you mean it.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
I should add this to my last post:

I am talking about a specific claim (Gen 2:7) which pretends to describe the specific chain of events whereby human life came to exist. This, as I have said more than a few times now, is abiogenesis/evolution’s direct competitor, and any evidence offered in its support should actually, specifically, and directly support it. That is, a logical argument from contingency, for example, is not going to even remotely do the trick (and wouldn’t be proved anyway).[/quote]

Interestingly enough, creationism and evolutionism both describe the origin of man as coming from pre-existing matter, i.e., “from the dust of the ground.”

Creationism, however, describes what occurred before that – matter/energy/space created ex nihilo by an omnipotent, eternal, transcendent Being.

The godless evolutionist must rely on matter/energy/space inexplicably appearing ex nihilo from a non-being with requisite enormously high odds as its companion – odds that most reasonable persons would be unlikely to accept.

Your burden of explanation, smh, is so much greater than mine. Make sure you do plenty of deadlifts.[/quote]

As expected, specificity deteriorates, dies an inglorious death, and nobody comes to his funeral. Nick has offered a similar point.

If you would like to get into that entirely separate philosophical debate, which, even if settled in you favor (which it would not be), would not prove that the Old Testament Gen 2:7 account of man’s origin is even partially correct, we can do that. It will not go as you think it will.

But, before we get into any of that, there is a thread that is required reading. As in, I won’t argue it out anew unless you’ve read through the thing, because I won’t spend the hours re-making arguments I (and Dr. Matt, and Aragorn, and Pat, and Kamui) made in the relatively recent past. I suggest we leave it – it’ an ordeal, and it gets complicated – but, if you want to get into it, let me know and I will find the thread or threads I’m looking for.

Edited

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

  1. I’m not angry at all.

[/quote]

Maybe not. But you are a ruthless savage. [/quote]

Hey, that sounds like a compliment to me. Anybody read Brave New World? Savage is the only way to be…

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

I just told you there is no specific direct reproducible evidence supporting either position.
[/quote]

Well you may have told me that, but that has little to do with what is.

Anything – anything – that gives you reason to specifically believe that Gen 2:7 is the accurate account of man’s origin. Anything that specifically offers even a scintilla of a reason to consider the mere possibility that Gen 2:7 is accurate. Anything.

(As I said before, I will not entertain the notion that the evolutionist would meet this question, asked of him and modified to address his beliefs, would stand in deafening silence as you have done and seem determined to continue to do. And neither should you entertain such nonsense.)

Edited

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

I just told you there is no specific direct reproducible evidence supporting either position.
[/quote]

Well you may have told me that, but you are fantastically wrong.

Anything – anything – that gives you reason to specifically believe that Gen 2:7 is the accurate account of man’s origin. Anything that specifically offers even a scintilla of a reason to consider the mere possibility that Gen 2:7 is accurate. Anything.

(As I said before, I will not entertain the notion that the evolutionist would meet this question, asked of him and modified to address his beliefs, would stand in deafening silence as you have done and seem determined to continue to do. And neither should you entertain such nonsense.)[/quote]

I’ve already answered this. And no, there is not any reproducible evidence in favor of the evolutionist. You won’t entertain the notion simply because you have no reproducible evidence to show. Merely your best guess as to what happened and how.

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

I just told you there is no specific direct reproducible evidence supporting either position.
[/quote]

Well you may have told me that, but you are fantastically wrong.

Anything – anything – that gives you reason to specifically believe that Gen 2:7 is the accurate account of man’s origin. Anything that specifically offers even a scintilla of a reason to consider the mere possibility that Gen 2:7 is accurate. Anything.

(As I said before, I will not entertain the notion that the evolutionist would meet this question, asked of him and modified to address his beliefs, would stand in deafening silence as you have done and seem determined to continue to do. And neither should you entertain such nonsense.)[/quote]

I’ve already answered this.
[/quote]

Where? I’m not being dense here. When/where did you answer it?

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Humans themselves have facilitated macroevolution. [/quote]

When?