How Much Do You Know About Christianity?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
901

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:

inquisition, which everyone loves to forget and make escuses for.

Are you out of your dolphin-wannabe head? WHO in the name of chickens and bonobos everywhere is making excuses for the Inquisition? The perpetrators of the Inquisition are locked in chains awaiting Judgment Day as we speak and they aint got themselves a good enough lawyer to get ‘em off. Holy Headstocks, Batmanoleeme, I can’t believe you lobbed this hand grenade. Those men weren’t Christians. They were evil, despicable, black-hearted fiends. You have got to snap out of it. You’re trippin’, sweetheart.

Most women of the Middle Ages were totally dominated by men. Any man in the family could order a woman to do as he wished. If a woman refused, she was beat into submission, as disobedience was considered a crime against God.

If a man did that he was following his sinful heart not Christianity. Quit attaching the sinful practices of man to what Christ set out for his followers.

[/quote]

Which inquisition are you referring too?

902

[quote]Oleena wrote:

I never said anything about the integrity of atheists and agnostics. Infact, I implied the opposite, that they would tell someone else that they did know best and give them advice to stay in an abusive relationship. The difference between god-fearing religious subscribers and others is not integrity or anything else having to do with human nature. As for a woman like I described being unable to think for herself and therefore needing to follow a doctorine, I come from the standpoint that if she was raised in the church all her life, her inability to question authority may be a result of an incomplete thought-process. Just on this thread I have been told numerous times that you cannot question god, and therefore there are many things that “we just can’t know” or if they seem wrong to us that’s because we aren’t god.

[/quote]

Oleena, on this thread I see you demanding proof and when people explain to you what led them to their conclusions, declaring it insufficient to meet your needs. Faith is the belief in something that can’t be proved. What is it about that you don’t understand? Some things we just can’t know, because there is no way of knowing them in the current state (as living human beings). People are very generously telling you what they believe to be true.

As for your abused woman, what do you want me to say? I made the point that not everyone who pushes a woman to stay in an abusive relationship is Christian. We went back and forth about their possible motives, which neither of us knows given that this is all speculation. Now you want to argue that the “god-fearing religious subscribers” have extra pull with the abused women? Perhaps. On the other hand, the church-going woman may have a more supportive community to draw on in need, who knows? Many secular individuals today report feelings of isolation in comparison to people who maintain ties to a religious community. And of course, isolation is often a distinguishing characteristic of women who remain with their batterers.

903

[quote]Oleena wrote:
You know what’s interesting about this? You spend most of the post speaking of logic, and then ended it with an amazing emotional discovery.
[/quote]

Yes, God is found through reason. So?

904

[quote]Oleena wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Oleena wrote:
Also, is anyone going to directly answer forlife?

In addition, no one addressed my question about animals having souls:

If animals have souls but not the spirit where do their souls go when they die?

And What makes the cut for getting a soul? Do amoebas have souls? When is something too much like a plant to have a soul, or do plants have souls?

been there - done that

the soul is extinguished upon death since it was not given eternal life by the breathe of God - i do believe I mentioned that . . . oh wait - I mentioned an author that you would have had to go read -sorry -didn’t Sesame Street it for you . . . have you ever seen a book? - good things books - got stuff in them . . . You’re hillarious. Here you are making up a fairy tale about souls and telling me that I need to read a book. You tell me with authority that you honestly know what happens to souls after death as if you, or anyone has actually been able to observe a soul in life, much less seen what happens to it after death. What you have going on here is a case of stating a hypothesis as law.

But sticking with the story: So what makes the cut for getting a soul? Does a conjoined twin have one soul or two?

[/quote]

Glad I can make you laugh. But if your intent is just to entertain yourself then why should I bother answer your questions - you’re not seeking understanding - you’re just looking for opportunity to mock (again - so much for an honest discussion)

You ask my view - I give it - you laugh at it - you ask for my view on something new - I give it - you laugh at it - you ask for my view on something new - I give it - you laugh at it - you ask for my view on something new - I give it - you laugh at it - you ask for my view on something new - I give it - you laugh at it - you ask for my view on something new - I give it - you laugh at it - you ask for my view on something new - I give it - you laugh at it . . .

I told you my views, explained the source of my views, gave you an author that explains it far better than I - and all you can do is mock . . .well aren’t you an amazing intellect

I guess I must be a masochist . . . .

905

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
The perfection of mathematics . . .
The design of the universe . . .
the nature of man . . .
the historical record . . .
the validity of scripture . . .
[/quote]

If any of these reasons was demonstrated to be less than incontrovertible, would you willingly revisit your conviction about your god?

906

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
the soul is extinguished upon death since it was not given eternal life by the breathe of God[/quote]

So you don’t believe animals have an afterlife, only humans that are given eternal life by the breath of god?

If it takes the breath of god for creatures to live forever, how do you explain the people that suffer in hell for eternity?

907

[quote]Oleena wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
forlife wrote:
IrishSteel, I’m curious if you can provide a nutshell summary of why you believe there is incontrovertible evidence for the Christian god? I’m not looking for specifics at this point, but the 2-3 most compelling reasons you chose to believe in this god. For example, “Prophecies in the old testament were fulfilled in the new testament, and couldn’t possibly be explained in any other way.”

well of all the bullshit questions . . . you want me to give to you the personal rationale that I needed (and worked incredibly hard for) to accept the Christian God as my own? And do all of your work for you? I don’t think so . . . as you know - i did not arrive at my faith by an easy road -if you want to follow the same path - you’ll have to do the same work . . .

besides - the evidence I needed is probably not be the evidence that you would need and I would not want to cloud an opportunity for salvation by giving you a false reason to reject him . .

tell you what - i’ll give you the basics . … . easy stuff . . . I’ll even do it in rational order for you - I’ll even give you the secret to my faith . . .

here’s the basics:

The perfection of mathematics . . .
The design of the universe . . .
the nature of man . . .
the historical record . . .
the validity of scripture . . .

Here’s the secret - I started from absolute zero - started discovering what was true/what was false - found evidence of God and kept tracking him down - starting from the base of mathematics through many fields and disciplines and theories and faiths and then finally to scripture where the God I saw evidence for throughout my other studies was waiting with loving arms to welcome me. You see, I didn’t start with the Bible - that was where I ended. And oh what an incredible day when I found Him - I cannot describe for you the joy of that journey or the amazing overwhelming wonder when i stepped through from seeking to knowing who God really is . . .
You know what’s interesting about this? You spend most of the post speaking of logic, and then ended it with an amazing emotional discovery.

You said something a while back that I also found interesting, but never commented on. Do you believe in buddhism and taoism?
[/quote]

Sunshine - you would be emotional too if you discovered that everything logical in the universe leads you to the existence and nature of the Divine and then to discover the one faith that reveals a Deity with exactly the same nature of the Divine that everything logical in the universe has revealed . . .

The eightfold path, the four noble truths, the Tao itself (a perfect descriptive of the Divine)? - why yes I do . . .

908

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Oleena wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
forlife wrote:

And I keep bringing you guys back to the heart of that question - if the only reason you think God is not benevolent is because of the level of punishment applied to those who sin, your problem is not with the concept of God creating man knowing that he would have to punish some - but the actual punishment itself. For example - if all hell really is is a plainer version of heaven but just no presence of God - is that not benevolent? What do you make of all the passages that describe hell as a burning lake with satan and all his angels nearby? I can see how you would want to believe in christianity more if you didn’t believe that hell was a burning lake with people screaming and gnashing their teeth. Giving those people exactly what they want - separation from him? After all - Christ on the cross experienced that very thing - and that was the true torment of the crucifixion for him!

But let’s deal with another aspect of your question that i tried to raise many pages back. Without a punishment for sin - moral choices would have no value. This is a rather old idea. Moral choices actually do have value outside of the concept of god- and the value is life or death. All you have to do is read up a little on the social dynamics of any other social animal to see what the consequences of acting unethically can be. If you murder your cousin, someone might murder you back. That, of course, is not even scraping the surface of the complex study of social dynamics and how it relates to a code of ethics outside of any concept of god. If there was no punishment - choosing to kill, rape and murder and on and on - would be just as viable an option as not doing those things. No, it wouldn’t. As I said, you need to read up on power dynamics. If there was no torment - then doing evil would be just as good as doing good - there has to be consequence to action. There are tons of consequences outside the concept of god for not “doing evil”. The survival of our species is a good one. Everywhere you look in the physical universe this law plays out - jump off of a building and you can yell “God is love” all the way to the ground - but your choice to jump off of the roof will still result in you hitting the ground. You’re right. You can scream “Don’t have sex before marrige” all you want, but those damned teenagers still breed!

You say that a loving God would not have created you if he knew you were going to sin and be punished for it . . . but that is not a choice at all because if he had not created you there would be no choice to make since there would have been no you to love enough to not create. . .how can I dumb this down for you . . . . You are asking why God did not love something that did not exist enough to not make it . . . it is illogical on its face . . . He could not have loved you if you did not exist, so the choice to not make you because he loved you when you did not exist is patently absurd! He could not love you until you existed Interesting. So there is something god can’t do. He can’t imagine ahead of time what he is going to create and see that he is going to love it. I’ve met unpregnant women who have better forethought than that. , now that you exist - he loves you unconditionally and is trying to save you from the consequences of the decisions you made of your own free will!

that was your answer? really?

So you cannot understand a hypothetical, eh? All you have done is proven my point by your response that you care more about the punishment than you do the love.[/quote] You didn’t answer my question about what parts of the bible you’re getting your ideas from [quote] You could care less whether or not God loves anyone- it is the idea of being punished that bothers you. That was my point - you do not care about the issue of God’s love, that is merely a tool for you to attack the idea of punishment for sin.[/quote] I believe we have been addressing whether or not god is acting as a loving god all knowing god, not the idea of whether or not he’s justified in punishing sinners after he brings them into exist

[quote]As for your juvenile assessment of right and wrong in a societal context - you know that in any scenario without an ultimate moral authority- all pretext of right and wrong are merely subjective to the person with the power to enforce their view. You argument was that natural consequences of choices would define something as right or wrong - but with enough power - or a majority opinion -that can disappear. Again- your concept of right and wrong is SUBJECTIVE -and consequently loses all value and meaning . . . [/quote] How is god’s supposed judgement of right and wrong objective? Isn’t it weird that a lot of his ethical guidelines in the old testiment no longer apply to our society?

[quote]So you’re reasoning goes like this . . .(I’m God for the sake of argument) I could create man or not create man - If I create man, I will love him. If i create man I will give him free will to choose to love me or not. I know that some will deny me and sin and I will then have to punish them. OK - I will make no one so that I do not have to punish the ones that I love that choose to do wrong . . . that is so absurd - how can I make you see that .[/quote] I’m trying to figure out how to show you that people make this absurd decision every time they strap on a condom.

[quote]I know - you gave me the perfect example - - - -Let’s flip this around to your example of the potential mother - if you are going to have a child, you will love him right? Will you punish him for being disobedient? Will you then choose to not get pregnant since you would have to punish them and you could not punish someone you love? See how absurd that is?[/quote] I would choose not to have the child if I knew that he was going to eventually kill someone and I would have to turn him in and lock him up for the rest of his life- yes I would choose not that have that child out of compassion for life. I would have a child who I had to punish at some points, but in the end led a satisfying life where he didn’t spend major portions wishing that he’d never been born.

[quote]You see - it all comes down - not to whether or not God loves you enough not to create you if he has to punish you - but whether or not you think his punishment is too harsh for the sins committed. We have no problem with the idea of someone loving someone that they have to punish for doing wrong - it is the punishment itself that you have a problem with - which has been my point all along.

And which you have proven true yourself again and again . . .

The two things that people hate about Christianity is personal responsibility (free will) and the possibility of punishment for sin (consequence of action) - take those two things out of Christianity and it would be as popular as Eastern Philosophies and just as ignored . . .[/quote] Whether or not Eastern Philosophies are ignored really depends on what part of the world you come from, or who raised you in that part. Where I live eastern philosophies have a greater following than western.

909

[quote]forlife wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
And I keep bringing you guys back to the heart of that question - if the only reason you think God is not benevolent is because of the level of punishment applied to those who sin, your problem is not with the concept of God creating man knowing that he would have to punish some - but the actual punishment itself.

Not applicable, since that isn’t the reason I see your god as lacking benevolence. It’s not the punishment per se, but the fact that your god KNOWINGLY creates people that are going to suffer horribly for all eternity, when he could have chosen NOT to create these people in the first place. Wouldn’t you agree it is far better not to exist, than to exist forever in horrible pain and agony?

For example - if all hell really is is a plainer version of heaven but just no presence of God - is that not benevolent?

Is that really how you see hell? If so, it is diametrically different from numerous biblical passages, which make it perfectly clear that hell is endless, horrible suffering.

Without a punishment for sin - moral choices would have no value.

Fair enough, but it begs the question. Why wouldn’t god simply create those people that he KNOWS are going to make good moral choices, and choose not to create those people that he KNOWS are going to suffer in hell forever? He could do so, without violating the law that moral choices lead to consequences. Not creating people who make poor moral choices in no way breaks the connection between moral choices and consequences.

He could not have loved you if you did not exist, so the choice to not make you because he loved you when you did not exist is patently absurd!

That notion is contradicted by the definition of omniscience. If god were truly omniscient, he would know everything, irrespective of when it comes into existence.

It is also contradicted by your own scripture, for example:

Jeremiah 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.[/quote]

See my response to O on punishment

God wanted people who would love him of their own free will - we’ve had that discussion.

I was arguing from your perspective, not mine. I have no trouble with God loving man and punishing him - see my response to O.

You guys are loads of fun - you ask me to answer your perspective/definitions about God and I do, then you come back and say that my answer for your perspective/definitions doesn’t match my beliefs - LMAO of course it doesn’t because my beliefs are not based on your perspectives or definitions . . .

910

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Oleena wrote:
You know what’s interesting about this? You spend most of the post speaking of logic, and then ended it with an amazing emotional discovery.

Yes, God is found through reason. So? [/quote]

My point was that the end result of a logical exploration should be a rational conclusion, not an emotional one.

911

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
So you’re reasoning goes like this . . .(I’m God for the sake of argument) I could create man or not create man - If I create man, I will love him. If i create man I will give him free will to choose to love me or not. I know that some will deny me and sin and I will then have to punish them. OK - I will make no one so that I do not have to punish the ones that I love that choose to do wrong . . . that is so absurd - how can I make you see that . . .
[/quote]

Not quite. Your reasoning above implies that god is forced to create both good and evil men, or not to create anybody.

If god is omnipotent, why not just create those that he knows in advance will make good choices, and spare the rest from endless horrible suffering?

912

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Also, is anyone going to directly answer forlife?
[/quote]
What he say?

What would be the difference between a soul and spirit? As for where it goes, I would assume they would go back to their source, perhaps unite with the original life force? I am guessing but seeing as how animals have no freewill there would be no self judgment logically speaking. Now I do not know this for sure as I haven’t died yet. When I croak I’ll let you know what’s on the other side.

[quote]
And What makes the cut for getting a soul? Do amoebas have souls? When is something too much like a plant to have a soul, or do plants have souls?[/quote]

Don’t know. Why does it matter? Ask yourself this, what is life? what does it mean to be alive? I am not looking for symptoms of life, but what ‘it’ actually is.

913

[quote]forlife wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
The perfection of mathematics . . .
The design of the universe . . .
the nature of man . . .
the historical record . . .
the validity of scripture . . .

If any of these reasons was demonstrated to be less than incontrovertible, would you willingly revisit your conviction about your god?[/quote]

Do you guys even read what I write? - I have said that exact same thing in my answers to TCD . . .

914

[quote]forlife wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
the soul is extinguished upon death since it was not given eternal life by the breathe of God

So you don’t believe animals have an afterlife, only humans that are given eternal life by the breath of god?

If it takes the breath of god for creatures to live forever, how do you explain the people that suffer in hell for eternity?
[/quote]

Have you ever read Genesis?

915

[quote]Oleena wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
Oleena wrote:
would guess instead that they have some notion that the relationship is the more secure place for one reason or another, as do the Christians. Are they mistaken? I would be inclined to think so. But that is neither here nor there, unless I am discussing the issue with someone trying to make a personal decision of their own.

My point was simply that an atheist or an agnostic will only be able to offer their best advice regarding relationships, and they wont be able to back themselves up as an authority by saying “Well the Bible says this, so therefore the all powerful creator of the universe also thinks you should stay with so and so”. This makes it easier for the abused person to question them and seek a second opinion without questioning whether or not they are going against the creator of the universe’s will.
[/quote]

I have never heard of anybody espousing the virtue of staying with an abuser. I don’t see what that has to do with anything.

916

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Faith is the belief in something that can’t be proved. [/quote]

In that case, why not have faith in one of the other hundreds of religions that exist or even create a religion of your own? If it can’t be proved, what grounds could you possibly have for choosing it over others, rather than familiarity or sheer randomness?

918

[quote]forlife wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
So you’re reasoning goes like this . . .(I’m God for the sake of argument) I could create man or not create man - If I create man, I will love him. If i create man I will give him free will to choose to love me or not. I know that some will deny me and sin and I will then have to punish them. OK - I will make no one so that I do not have to punish the ones that I love that choose to do wrong . . . that is so absurd - how can I make you see that . . .

Not quite. Your reasoning above implies that god is forced to create both good and evil men, or not to create anybody.

If god is omnipotent, why not just create those that he knows in advance will make good choices, and spare the rest from endless horrible suffering?[/quote]

That is pre-determinism . . . not free will - are we going to have to repeat every discussion again?

919

[quote]Oleena wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Oleena wrote:
You know what’s interesting about this? You spend most of the post speaking of logic, and then ended it with an amazing emotional discovery.

Yes, God is found through reason. So?

My point was that the end result of a logical exploration should be a rational conclusion, not an emotional one.

[/quote]

Well, that’s simply not true. And, I suspect that sort of assumption is why you’re having problems understanding what Monsieur Irish is saying.