I’ll jump in and say I believe in the big “G” I’m also down with Jesus but I’m not the preachy type. Most people get turned off by that. I keep it to myself most the time since God isn’t to popular where I live.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
ZEB wrote:
kroby wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Therefore, if a thing (whatever it might be) cannot be explained you do not believe in its existence?
I didn’t say that at all. I said the God of the Bible (or the Torah or the Qur’an) does not exist.
Yes, I understand your position. But, my question remains: how can you be certain?
The Bible It is incomplete, and therefore flawed.
But, how do you know? You are guessing it’s incomplete? What do you base this “reality” on?
A thing can exist without explanation.
Then God can exist (as in the Bible) without you or I being able to explain it.
Thank you again, ZEB, for this opportunity.
You’re welcome. Thank you.
- Can one be 100% certain that god, zeus, thor, odin, appollon… doesen’t exist? No… Can i be 100% certain that a silver teapot isn’t circling around a sun 2234 lightyears away, controlling the universe? No… Are any of the above plausible in any way? No… am i 99.9% certain that neither of them exist? YES!
But it seems to me that there is quite a difference between the two examples above. There has been nothing written regarding the teapot example.
- The bible is incoherent,
Please give an example of how this is so. I’ve read the Bible many times and cannot agree with you on this.
self-contradictory
I’ve had others state this. But, when asked all they could do was post something off of a wacky web site that I easily shot down.
3)“Then God can exist (as in the Bible) without you or I being able to explain it.”
you miss “possible” with “plausible”
is it possible? well… yeah, theoretically… is it plausible? No, there is no indication, WHAT SO EVER…
It depends on what you call an indication. I’d say that’s a pretty broad term.
[/quote]
-
So writing about something makes it true? Hamlet is some divine love god?
No, “existance” does not follow logically from “being written about”. -
Well, we have two different versions of the ten commandments. We have the gospel of matthew says that Jesus relates to king david trough 28 generations, luke trough 41… and the names on the lists doesen’t even remotely match… Two quick examples. The bible is full of contradictions. I have read it quite a few times, more than most christians… I know.
-
There are no rational indications… it is a simple as that.
i do believe in god, but i don’t believe we have any accurate religion or that religion is even necessary.
i don’t think god is a judgemental, father like physical entity somewhere in the clouds who goes by what ever name a particular religion wants to call him.
i do think religion is man made and was once an effective tool of population control before science could explain away irrational fears regarding plaugues, mental disease (satan) et cetera.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
orion wrote:
But many beliefs do not include a higher power!
There are trees that remember what is spoken beneath them, ancestors that walk among us but are not especially powerful, or much more powerful in everyday live than their version of “God”.
From the point of view of cultural group selection a meme complex like Islam, or Judaim makes sense:
Be nice and co-operate with everyone holding your faith and finish off/enslave/steal from the rest.
Kill everyone that doubts or dissents. Indoctrinate your children as early as possible.
Spread the message, with fire and sword if necessary.
Is it really so astonishing that religions that have that set of instructions outcompete other sets of superstition?
It is like a mind virus with specific instructions:
Go out and spread, kill those who cannot be infected.
It is like a summer hit you cannot get out of your ear, only more complex.
I’m talking about an inborn spiritual need that has to be filled. You are talking about how some people try and fill that need.
I suspect that those who try and fill that need though the “virus” method continue to be dissatisfied. In that I don’t believe you can truly fill a spiritual need by killing others.
So I think many who use this kind of man-made religion never actually find what they are seeking. That is probably what makes them continue to try and covert or kill; because they are not satisfied with the spiritual fulfillment they have received to that point.
[/quote]
My point is, if you combine everything I wrote, that people tend to believe weird stuff, because of the way their brain is wired.
What they believe in, originally, is more or less a product of chance, what they will believe after millenia of cultural competition is yet another thing.
It all starts somewhere and then an evolutionary selection kicks in.
Your ability to enjoy certain ideas spiritually is probably no different than the ability to enjoy music or plant particles that mimic endorphines, but we build quite elaborated ideas and structures around it, because we are a culture building species and probably can`t help it.
Maybe if people say that a symphony is divine they unconsciously refer to the music as audio candy/porn, which is what religion could be on an idea level.
i’m really surprised by the number of people who have answered in the affirmative… to the point that I think this thread probably attracts religious folk more than avowed atheists
I believe that energy never truly dies. I believe that within everybody is an energy that stretches beyond the scope of a beating heart. That’s the best I have with regards to a ‘soul’.
In my own perception, I sense that through honest expression of our own humanity, the beautiful and the sad and ugly…the vessel being art, we can connect to one another.
There is scarcely an honest word to be found in everyday conversation. Bluntly, nobody says anything worth listening to. It numbs my head and enrages my heart. Frustrates me.
I look to art and music for the truth. The unspoken, unheard dialog of who we are. Of what we feel. We all want to be understood. To identify. We’re all banging our heads on brick walls. Isolated. I believe it is the isolation that is the enemy. Not just country to country but simpler, man to man.
I’m no fucking hippy. I just recognise the power of expression. I recognise its turned to generic garbage. I have to listen harder, and dig deeper. I’m up to the task. I wish others were.
[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
I believe that energy never truly dies. I believe that within everybody is an energy that stretches beyond the scope of a beating heart. That’s the best I have with regards to a ‘soul’.
In my own perception, I sense that through honest expression of our own humanity, the beautiful and the sad and ugly…the vessel being art, we can connect to one another.
There is scarcely an honest word to be found in everyday conversation. Bluntly, nobody says anything worth listening to. It numbs my head and enrages my heart. Frustrates me.
I look to art and music for the truth. The unspoken, unheard dialog of who we are. Of what we feel. We all want to be understood. To identify. We’re all banging our heads on brick walls. Isolated. I believe it is the isolation that is the enemy. Not just country to country but simpler, man to man.
I’m no fucking hippy. I just recognise the power of expression. I recognise its turned to generic garbage. I have to listen harder, and dig deeper. I’m up to the task. I wish others were.[/quote]
I think most of our communication is over completely pointless and unnatural things. Art and music can be very ‘pure’ because they have been with us since before language, expression is the precursor to communication.
Uh… I mean, I’m no fucking hippy.
[quote]Malevolence wrote:
Molotov_Coktease wrote:
I believe that energy never truly dies. I believe that within everybody is an energy that stretches beyond the scope of a beating heart. That’s the best I have with regards to a ‘soul’.
In my own perception, I sense that through honest expression of our own humanity, the beautiful and the sad and ugly…the vessel being art, we can connect to one another.
There is scarcely an honest word to be found in everyday conversation. Bluntly, nobody says anything worth listening to. It numbs my head and enrages my heart. Frustrates me.
I look to art and music for the truth. The unspoken, unheard dialog of who we are. Of what we feel. We all want to be understood. To identify. We’re all banging our heads on brick walls. Isolated. I believe it is the isolation that is the enemy. Not just country to country but simpler, man to man.
I’m no fucking hippy. I just recognise the power of expression. I recognise its turned to generic garbage. I have to listen harder, and dig deeper. I’m up to the task. I wish others were.
I think most of our communication is over completely pointless and unnatural things. Art and music can be very ‘pure’ because they have been with us since before language, expression is the precursor to communication.
Uh… I mean, I’m no fucking hippy.[/quote]
Yes, I really think a rewind is in order. We’ve lost touch. Precursor you say. If so, its not any kind of evolution for the better. Everything has been forgotten. Knowledge and truth, hurt and pain, everything that meant anything. Dead. Any voice that rises as a reminder, muffled by overwhelming ignorance.
What has this to do with god I guess is the question, and in my estimation…everything.
[quote]Adamsson wrote:
ZEB wrote:
kroby wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Therefore, if a thing (whatever it might be) cannot be explained you do not believe in its existence?
I didn’t say that at all. I said the God of the Bible (or the Torah or the Qur’an) does not exist.
Yes, I understand your position. But, my question remains: how can you be certain?
The Bible It is incomplete, and therefore flawed.
But, how do you know? You are guessing it’s incomplete? What do you base this “reality” on?
A thing can exist without explanation.
Then God can exist (as in the Bible) without you or I being able to explain it.
Thank you again, ZEB, for this opportunity.
You’re welcome. Thank you.
-
Can one be 100% certain that god, zeus, thor, odin, appollon… doesen’t exist? No… Can i be 100% certain that a silver teapot isn’t circling around a sun 2234 lightyears away, controlling the universe? No… Are any of the above plausible in any way? No… am i 99.9% certain that neither of them exist? YES!
-
The bible is incoherent, self-contradictory and filled with weird translations and ofcourse: FILLED with gruesome hate and a god that seems like a jealous, vindictive and petty god… does that make him more realistic? no.
3)“Then God can exist (as in the Bible) without you or I being able to explain it.”
you miss “possible” with “plausible”
is it possible? well… yeah, theoretically… is it plausible? No, there is no indication, WHAT SO EVER… [/quote]
Can you prove 100% you exist? I believe you exist, but can you prove it…
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Can you prove 100% you exist? I believe you exist, but can you prove it…[/quote]
of course he can, all he has to do its take a picture of himself and a sheet of paper that has his username on it. simple as that.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Can you prove 100% you exist? I believe you exist, but can you prove it…[/quote]
This is the road to sollipsism which is, I think according to Schopenhauer, an “inpenetrable fortress inhabited by a lunatic”…
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
kroby wrote:
I didn’t say that at all. I said the God of the Bible (or the Torah or the Qur’an) does not exist.
How do you know ZEB exists? Have you seen him? You see the evidence of ZEB, but not the actual ZEB. And yet you are talking to him?
Maybe you just haven’t being paying attention to the actual evidence of the existence of God?
What is this evidence? You have found the hammer of thor? Kali’s swords?
Tell me how you think man originated and I will show you the evidence!
You made a statement, are you unable or not willing to back it up?
If you want to know (no, not how i THINK, but the factual version) how man originated? Read the blind watchmaker, read the selfish gene, read any popular scientific book on evolution.
Simple as that. Evolution is a fact, some people seem to be confusing this somehow with how different details are disputed, the theory complex of evolution is a fact, and is undisputed by all serious and credible sources. (No, christian conservative organisations in US are not credible sources).
Your blind devotion to a system you don’t really understand is encouraging. At least it demonstrates that you can and do live by faith, even if that faith is in the intellect of others.
There is a number of ways to look at the evidence, but since you mentioned evolution, I will start there.
Evolution is a process that is part of a system that current cannot be explained. In other terms, evolution is a theory (not actually proven, but has not be disproved, so that is good enough for modern science) developed to explain the origins of man inside of an ecosystem that cannot be explained. Meaning that evolution tells us how the pieces might have gone together, but not where the puzzle board and pieces came from and how they stayed orderly for billions of years.
I personally think evolution is a good theory, but the fact that it totally ignores the orderly system in place that allows it to be feasible is its downfall.
So the biggest evidence for a higher power is in fact evolution.
There is currently no rational explanation for such an orderly and systematic system to exist that would allow evolution to occur. As such, any explanation outside of what we can validate must be given equal validity. Which means, the possibility that a higher power set this system in place that allows evolution is just as feasible as two big pieces of matter (never mind where it came from as asking that question will get you kicked out of science class) banging together and landing in the exact spot required for human life �?? and staying that way for billions for years. Both cannot be disproved and both take a large leap of faith.
[/quote]
-
You are wrong
-
You know obviously nothing about evolution
-
You are wrong.
"There is currently no rational explanation for such an orderly and systematic system to exist that would allow evolution to occur. "
you mean:
“with my EXTREMELY LIMITED knowledge, I MYSELF cannot UNDERSTAND the system i talk about”
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
ZEB wrote:
kroby wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Therefore, if a thing (whatever it might be) cannot be explained you do not believe in its existence?
I didn’t say that at all. I said the God of the Bible (or the Torah or the Qur’an) does not exist.
Yes, I understand your position. But, my question remains: how can you be certain?
The Bible It is incomplete, and therefore flawed.
But, how do you know? You are guessing it’s incomplete? What do you base this “reality” on?
A thing can exist without explanation.
Then God can exist (as in the Bible) without you or I being able to explain it.
Thank you again, ZEB, for this opportunity.
You’re welcome. Thank you.
-
Can one be 100% certain that god, zeus, thor, odin, appollon… doesen’t exist? No… Can i be 100% certain that a silver teapot isn’t circling around a sun 2234 lightyears away, controlling the universe? No… Are any of the above plausible in any way? No… am i 99.9% certain that neither of them exist? YES!
-
The bible is incoherent, self-contradictory and filled with weird translations and ofcourse: FILLED with gruesome hate and a god that seems like a jealous, vindictive and petty god… does that make him more realistic? no.
3)“Then God can exist (as in the Bible) without you or I being able to explain it.”
you miss “possible” with “plausible”
is it possible? well… yeah, theoretically… is it plausible? No, there is no indication, WHAT SO EVER…
Can you prove 100% you exist? I believe you exist, but can you prove it…[/quote]
This is just retarded. Ofcourse, in the framework of rationality, I can prove that I exist. What is it with the total disregard for scientific method so many here show?
[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
Malevolence wrote:
Molotov_Coktease wrote:
I believe that energy never truly dies. I believe that within everybody is an energy that stretches beyond the scope of a beating heart. That’s the best I have with regards to a ‘soul’.
In my own perception, I sense that through honest expression of our own humanity, the beautiful and the sad and ugly…the vessel being art, we can connect to one another.
There is scarcely an honest word to be found in everyday conversation. Bluntly, nobody says anything worth listening to. It numbs my head and enrages my heart. Frustrates me.
I look to art and music for the truth. The unspoken, unheard dialog of who we are. Of what we feel. We all want to be understood. To identify. We’re all banging our heads on brick walls. Isolated. I believe it is the isolation that is the enemy. Not just country to country but simpler, man to man.
I’m no fucking hippy. I just recognise the power of expression. I recognise its turned to generic garbage. I have to listen harder, and dig deeper. I’m up to the task. I wish others were.
I think most of our communication is over completely pointless and unnatural things. Art and music can be very ‘pure’ because they have been with us since before language, expression is the precursor to communication.
Uh… I mean, I’m no fucking hippy.
Yes, I really think a rewind is in order. We’ve lost touch. Precursor you say. If so, its not any kind of evolution for the better. Everything has been forgotten. Knowledge and truth, hurt and pain, everything that meant anything. Dead. Any voice that rises as a reminder, muffled by overwhelming ignorance.
What has this to do with god I guess is the question, and in my estimation…everything.[/quote]
I am sure you will consider my opinion “overwhelming ignorance” but what you have written appears to be the ramblings of a confused person looking for something to fill a void in their life.
Or maybe it is poetry. I don’t know. I never understood poetry.
[quote]Adamsson wrote:
This is just retarded. Ofcourse, in the framework of rationality, I can prove that I exist. What is it with the total disregard for scientific method so many here show?
[/quote]
So you can prove you exist in reality as opposed to a dream or an illusionary state?
There is no real way of proving whether you exist in “reality” as opposed to existing in a dream state…
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
deputydawg wrote:
But believing that everything came from nothing is logical? Interesting.
Why do you assume that “everything” must have come from nothing if there is no god?
The Big Bang model may be incorrect: energy/matter may have “always” existed, though in different states.[/quote]
As I understand it, the Big Bang model is the the currently accepted scientific model.
[quote]Adamsson wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
ZEB wrote:
kroby wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Therefore, if a thing (whatever it might be) cannot be explained you do not believe in its existence?
I didn’t say that at all. I said the God of the Bible (or the Torah or the Qur’an) does not exist.
Yes, I understand your position. But, my question remains: how can you be certain?
The Bible It is incomplete, and therefore flawed.
But, how do you know? You are guessing it’s incomplete? What do you base this “reality” on?
A thing can exist without explanation.
Then God can exist (as in the Bible) without you or I being able to explain it.
Thank you again, ZEB, for this opportunity.
You’re welcome. Thank you.
-
Can one be 100% certain that god, zeus, thor, odin, appollon… doesen’t exist? No… Can i be 100% certain that a silver teapot isn’t circling around a sun 2234 lightyears away, controlling the universe? No… Are any of the above plausible in any way? No… am i 99.9% certain that neither of them exist? YES!
-
The bible is incoherent, self-contradictory and filled with weird translations and ofcourse: FILLED with gruesome hate and a god that seems like a jealous, vindictive and petty god… does that make him more realistic? no.
3)“Then God can exist (as in the Bible) without you or I being able to explain it.”
you miss “possible” with “plausible”
is it possible? well… yeah, theoretically… is it plausible? No, there is no indication, WHAT SO EVER…
Can you prove 100% you exist? I believe you exist, but can you prove it…
This is just retarded. Ofcourse, in the framework of rationality, I can prove that I exist. What is it with the total disregard for scientific method so many here show?
[/quote]
Use what ever method you like. It doesn’t matter what you will find is that it’s much harder than you think it is when you start breaking things down. It is not retarded. What’s retarded is trusting your five senses to tell you everything there is to be known. There are things that exist that cannot be detected with sight, touch, taste, hearing, or smell.
Whether or not your believe in God, raising the question at all automatically dumps you in the realm of metaphysics. Many of the great philosophers through out time have not been able to prove in a logical, deductive manner that they exist much less anything else.
Descarte was the closest in my opinion, but not perfect. He skipped a step with the whole “I think, therefore I am” thing. You brought up the question with your analogies. I am simply turning it introspective.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
1)He just wrote about a teapot. Are you insinuating that you can prove God (or a non-human) wrote the bible? Majority thought as an argument is a fallacy.[/quote]
Perhaps, but as I stated that “thought” is in fact based upon much evidence which many discount who don’t want to believe.
There is evidence, one can either turn away, or embrace it.
It’s not my desire to start quoting Bible verses. But this one might shed a little light on your statement above:
Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’”
Clearly they knew it was wrong and did it anyway.
Go figure.
I think this one, after the virgin birth probably bothers more people than just about anything in the Bible.
The term “Godhead,” refers to the three-in-one, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and can be found in Acts 17:29and Colossians 2:9.
Quite mysterious huh? So, it’s not true?
By the way, the concept of the Godhead (Trinity) is evident in scripture as early as the first chapter of the book of Genesis.
I could not agree with you more. In fact, it says in the Bible that “it is impossible to please God without faith.” (Hebrews 11:6).
Faith is pretty important stuff.
Why? Good question huh?
I’ve also heard that the absence of faith is despair.
[quote]There is no logical argument for or against God. God is not logical. Atheism is not logical. None of it is based in logical thought. It’s all faith, and therefore, damn near impossible to argue.
[/quote]
Pretty nearly impossible, but that doesn’t stop us.
[quote]kroby wrote:
ZEB wrote:
kroby wrote:
A thing can exist without explanation.
Then God can exist (as in the Bible) without you or I being able to explain it.
If that is your necessity, yes. It is not mine. Subjectively, I’ve ruled out this possibility.[/quote]
But you do agree that something can exist without it having to be explained, as you stated in a prior post.
While God might be “more” than this. He is also “less” than this. And in order to commune with man why would he not use man as his voice? If he gave us all he had would we understand it? According to you (and I agree) we’d be lost.
First of all I have seen no flaws in the Bible. I have seen wacky web sites try to point out flaws, but when research is done, the flaws fall away. If you have personally seen what you believe to be a flaw, please point it out to me, it will be the first one that I’ve seen.
Secondly, When you say “the real thing” in reference to God please tell me exactly how you know what the real thing is.
Many have called it fiction, but in reality it is just as real as many quality works done in antiquity. I have some evidence regarding that statement if you’d like to see it.
It’s become popular by some to claim that the Bible is fiction. And they do it for many reasons. Some have never read it. Others have been turned off by their particular church. Still others don’t want to live by the precepts set down in the Bible, it’s seems too restrictive for them.
And, you suspect that it’s fiction, why, I don’t know. But from what I’ve studied the Bible is based on fact. And I have never even once read or anything which sheds any doubt on those facts.
Many have speculated that this or that cannot be true. But that’s as far as it’s gone.
While we may never agree thanks for the discussion. I used to think as you do and can appreciate where you’re coming from.
[quote]deputydawg wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
deputydawg wrote:
But believing that everything came from nothing is logical? Interesting.
Why do you assume that “everything” must have come from nothing if there is no god?
The Big Bang model may be incorrect: energy/matter may have “always” existed, though in different states.
As I understand it, the Big Bang model is the the currently accepted scientific model. [/quote]
Not by everyone. I don’t even think Steven Hawking thinks it is accurate although his thinking may have changed again.