How Many T-Men Believe in God?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I believe that there is likely a God somewhere. I don’t know that it’s a physical entity, or that it really cares what happens in this world, but it’s likely there.

What leads you to “think it’s there”? I’m just curious.

A feeling that the world is simply too complicated, and humans have had to endure so many hardships to get to the point of self-concious beings, to do alone. [/quote]

Funny how this “feeling” seems to be prevalent in most societies.

Wise words.

But there usually is a “right way” and a wrong way to perform most tasks. And certainly an optimum way to live.

What drove you away from the Catholic church, specifically?

But my point is still valid. You and I know that human beings are better off if they train. But some folks (perhaps the majority) would have you believe. because of their own laziness or lack of understanding, that training is only for the extreme, the zealot.

Yes, but what about the person who has discovered for himself the proper path to follow and it happens to coincide with a “preacher or the pope”?

If you adhere to training principal “A” and Louie Simmons happens to preach training principal “A” does that make you a blind follower, or someone in agreement with another who has more knowledge?

Tell what proof do you have that the Bible is a “novel”? Is this just a feeling? Has there been proof offered up that clearly demonstrates that certain things written in the Bible are absolutely false?

I know that there have been archeological digs that have verified certain stories in the Bible as true.

Okay, I think I know what’s turned you off to the Catholic church. I’m not a Catholic, but keep in mind that that was a small minority of Priests. And there is bad in any organization where there are people.

62

[quote]orion wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:

What I meant was how can you have such faith that “the God of the Bible does not exist.”

It`s a numbers game…

And just why are there so many Gods? Why must most all men from the beginning of time believe in something they can’t see? Is it genetic like language development? Or does man have an innate spiritual need that can only be truly satisfied by belief in a higher power?

There is a book called “Religion explained” that tries to show that religion is a byproduct of how our mind works.

If it does a good job doing that is not my point, my point is that it examines a lot of religious believes and a lot do not serve any spiritual needs we would recognize, it is just arbitrary stuff people believe in…
[/quote]

Sure, I think that is probably true as well. Some people do believe in things that are hard to understand from a spiritual perspective. However, my point was that in an evolutionary model, what possible function would the belief in a higher power play? In other words, why would the need to believe in a higher power evolve in man? What possible role could it play in survival of the fittest?

63

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
orion wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:

What I meant was how can you have such faith that “the God of the Bible does not exist.”

It`s a numbers game…

And just why are there so many Gods? Why must most all men from the beginning of time believe in something they can’t see? Is it genetic like language development? Or does man have an innate spiritual need that can only be truly satisfied by belief in a higher power?

There is a book called “Religion explained” that tries to show that religion is a byproduct of how our mind works.

If it does a good job doing that is not my point, my point is that it examines a lot of religious believes and a lot do not serve any spiritual needs we would recognize, it is just arbitrary stuff people believe in…

Sure, I think that is probably true as well. Some people do believe in things that are hard to understand from a spiritual perspective. However, my point was that in an evolutionary model, what possible function would the belief in a higher power play? In other words, why would the need to believe in a higher power evolve in man? What possible role could it play in survival of the fittest?

[/quote]

But many beliefs do not include a higher power!

There are trees that remember what is spoken beneath them, ancestors that walk among us but are not especially powerful, or much more powerful in everyday live than their version of “God”.

From the point of view of cultural group selection a meme complex like Islam, or Judaim makes sense:

Be nice and co-operate with everyone holding your faith and finish off/enslave/steal from the rest.

Kill everyone that doubts or dissents. Indoctrinate your children as early as possible.

Spread the message, with fire and sword if necessary.

Is it really so astonishing that religions that have that set of instructions outcompete other sets of superstition?

It is like a mind virus with specific instructions:

Go out and spread, kill those who cannot be infected.

It is like a summer hit you cannot get out of your ear, only more complex.

64

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Therefore, if a thing (whatever it might be) cannot be explained you do not believe in its existence?

[/quote]

I didn’t say that at all. I said the God of the Bible (or the Torah or the Qur’an) does not exist. It is a finite attempt to describe something that is beyond our complete comprehension. The Bible shows glimpses of pieces of God, but it falls short. It is incomplete, and therefore flawed.

God, IMHO, is the sum total of reality. Certainly not a deity, as it is always referenced by humanity. But most of humanity needs deities. And they are welcome to them. It fills a void, makes complete that which is not. And I am grateful for it. If it helps another person to be kind and loving… I find nothing wrong with that. But to proclaim their truth as The Truth… that supposition only brings conflict which brings suffering.

Let me try and tackle your question directly. Can anyone fully explain reality? Then how are we here? Do we not exist? [/rhetorical questions] I believe that I answered your question. A thing can exist without explanation.

Thank you again, ZEB, for this opportunity.

65

No, ofcourse not. Believing in god is irrational.

Secondly:

“Tell what proof do you have that the Bible is a “novel”? Is this just a feeling? Has there been proof offered up that clearly demonstrates that certain things written in the Bible are absolutely false?”

“Tell what proof do you have that the dragon in my garage is an object of my imagination? Is this just a feeling? Has there been proof offered up that clearly demonstrates that I don’t have a dragon in my garage?”

Logic at its best.

66

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
No, ofcourse not. Believing in god is irrational.

Secondly:

“Tell what proof do you have that the Bible is a “novel”? Is this just a feeling? Has there been proof offered up that clearly demonstrates that certain things written in the Bible are absolutely false?”

“Tell what proof do you have that the dragon in my garage is an object of my imagination? Is this just a feeling? Has there been proof offered up that clearly demonstrates that I don’t have a dragon in my garage?”

Logic at its best.[/quote]

But believing that everything came from nothing is logical? Interesting.

67

no. keep god out of california.

68

[quote]deputydawg wrote:
But believing that everything came from nothing is logical? Interesting.[/quote]

Why do you assume that “everything” must have come from nothing if there is no god?

The Big Bang model may be incorrect: energy/matter may have “always” existed, though in different states.

69

[quote]deputydawg wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
No, ofcourse not. Believing in god is irrational.

Secondly:

“Tell what proof do you have that the Bible is a “novel”? Is this just a feeling? Has there been proof offered up that clearly demonstrates that certain things written in the Bible are absolutely false?”

“Tell what proof do you have that the dragon in my garage is an object of my imagination? Is this just a feeling? Has there been proof offered up that clearly demonstrates that I don’t have a dragon in my garage?”

Logic at its best.

But believing that everything came from nothing is logical? Interesting.[/quote]

You seem to suffer from the same problem as many creationists/ID-people.

“so, you think that it happened random? Not by design?”

They put up two alternatives, which of the one is their, and the other is noones, beacause noone thinks that evolution is random.

Just as noone thinks that everything came from nothing. But if we follow your train of thought, where did this magical god of yours come from? Is it Zeus by the way? or Odin? Or Allah…? Yaweh…? Which god is it?

70

[quote]altimus wrote:
no. keep god out of california.[/quote]

We did, and replace Him with Paris…Good luck with that…

71

[quote]pat36 wrote:
altimus wrote:
no. keep god out of california.

We did, and replace Him with Paris…Good luck with that…[/quote]

She has yet to smite someone and keeps out6 of my life.

Go Paris!

72

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Why do you assume that “everything” must have come from nothing if there is no god? [/quote]

I don’t think that is the point - the point is the question remains open, and the fact that you can’t prove the existence of a god is precisely as relevant as the fact that you can’t prove there isn’t a god, as a matter of a logic problem.

That is where Reason leaves off, and a different inquiry begins.

“Abuse of Reason” is as bad as religious fundamentalism these days.

73

The fact that I can’t prove that a gigantic chinese saucer is NOT dancing around the sun, doesen’t make it a 50/50 kind of thing. Neither is the logical default answer for “is there a god” “yes” or “maybe”, but “no”.

Answers like a few here come with is what makes me afraid… and at the same time happy that Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris exists…

Interestingly enough, the same people rambling about islam is the same ones defending christianity…

yay

74

Just to be more clear on my own personal beliefs. I’m a Christian, and catholic to be specific. I believe my faith is the one true religion, while others contain part, or none, of the ‘true faith.’

I converted after my own experience and much study. So no, I wasn’t brainwashed as a child.

I didn’t convert because of any character flaw. I’m fully capable to deal with the trials and tribulations of life.

I did not convert out of a fear of death. What exactly is there to fear from an atheistic death? There are no consequences, just oblivion. And naturally, one wouldn’t even be aware of this oblivion. If anything, an atheistic death is the least frightening to me. There is no possibility of experiencing an eternal punishment, after all.

So yeah, I didn’t convert because of some character flaw or fear of death.

75

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
The fact that I can’t prove that a gigantic chinese saucer is NOT dancing around the sun, doesen’t make it a 50/50 kind of thing. Neither is the logical default answer for “is there a god” “yes” or “maybe”, but “no”. [/quote]

Bad analogy. What you suggest is a measurable, provable issue. You can actually prove what you just said you couldn’t.

And, the point is not that lack of proof of a god means a default “there is a god” - no one is arguing that. What is being suggested is that inductively, certain observable phenomena support an idea that is already rooted in Faith - as in, the surprising order of the universe, etc.

More plainly stated, it is the argument that there are components of both reason and faith to believe in a god - and neither extreme of “pure reason” nor “superstition” supplies the best answer.

No one is arguing “you can’t prove there isn’t a god, therefore, there is a god”.

What does this have to do with anything? Which Christian here is attacking Islam on the sole basis Islam presupposes a god?

No one. Keep up.

76

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
The fact that I can’t prove that a gigantic chinese saucer is NOT dancing around the sun, doesen’t make it a 50/50 kind of thing. Neither is the logical default answer for “is there a god” “yes” or “maybe”, but “no”.

Bad analogy. What you suggest is a measurable, provable issue. You can actually prove what you just said you couldn’t.

And, the point is not that lack of proof of a god means a default “there is a god” - no one is arguing that. What is being suggested is that inductively, certain observable phenomena support an idea that is already rooted in Faith - as in, the surprising order of the universe, etc.

More plainly stated, it is the argument that there are components of both reason and faith to believe in a god - and neither extreme of “pure reason” nor “superstition” supplies the best answer.

No one is arguing “you can’t prove there isn’t a god, therefore, there is a god”.

Interestingly enough, the same people rambling about islam is the same ones defending christianity…

What does this have to do with anything? Which Christian here is attacking Islam on the sole basis Islam presupposes a god?

No one. Keep up.[/quote]

  1. We cannot measure or find a chinese teapot in a close orbit to the sun, wrong. Even if we could, that was not the relevant issue at hand.

  2. There is no reasonable or rational reasons for believing in god, period.

now, grow up and argue honestly please.

77

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
The fact that I can’t prove that a gigantic chinese saucer is NOT dancing around the sun, doesen’t make it a 50/50 kind of thing. Neither is the logical default answer for “is there a god” “yes” or “maybe”, but “no”.

Answers like a few here come with is what makes me afraid… and at the same time happy that Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris exists…

Interestingly enough, the same people rambling about islam is the same ones defending christianity…

yay
[/quote]

Paris bless you…

78

[quote]Adamsson wrote:

  1. We cannot measure or find a chinese teapot in a close orbit to the sun, wrong. Even if we could, that was not the relevant issue at hand. [/quote]

We can definitively take your claim, observe, and evaluate your claim, and come to a conclusion.

We can’t find a teapot circling the sun because we can objectively look and see if it is there - and it isn’t.

No one is saying “look there, you can see God!” and then you look and you don’t see him. The presupposition of a God is not based on a physical, measurable presence like the one you used in your example.

The existence of a God, as stated here, does not fall within that qualititative analysis.

Sure there are. From the order of the universe to a shared human nature to an exploration of transcendent morality - this has led many to inductively believe in the sense of a higher power, even when given free reign to be “rational” about the process.

The point is that Reason alone most certainly does not create a belief in God - but no one is arguing that. They are arguing that Reason supplements Faith.

Reason alone also does not create an automatic disbelief in God - there is nothing we can deduce that disproves that the universe had a god at the levers. Again, to repeat - as of now, Reason leaves the question open and cannot answer it one way or the other.

Interesting. For centuries, minds much greater than ours have wrestled with this question to no avail - but suddenly, you have it all figured out? And there is “no reasonable or rational” reason to believe in a god?

See my “Abuse of Reason” comment above. Such conceit.

79

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Adamsson wrote:

  1. We cannot measure or find a chinese teapot in a close orbit to the sun, wrong. Even if we could, that was not the relevant issue at hand.

We can definitively take your claim, observe, and evaluate your claim, and come to a conclusion.

We can’t find a teapot circling the sun because we can objectively look and see if it is there - and it isn’t.

No one is saying “look there, you can see God!” and then you look and you don’t see him. The presupposition of a God is not based on a physical, measurable presence like the one you used in your example.

The existence of a God, as stated here, does not fall within that qualititative analysis.

  1. There is no reasonable or rational reasons for believing in god, period.

Sure there are. From the order of the universe to a shared human nature to an exploration of transcendent morality - this has led many to inductively believe in the sense of a higher power, even when given free reign to be “rational” about the process.

The point is that Reason alone most certainly does not create a belief in God - but no one is arguing that. They are arguing that Reason supplements Faith.

Reason alone also does not create an automatic disbelief in God - there is nothing we can deduce that disproves that the universe had a god at the levers. Again, to repeat - as of now, Reason leaves the question open and cannot answer it one way or the other.

now, grow up and argue honestly please.

Interesting. For centuries, minds much greater than ours have wrestled with this question to no avail - but suddenly, you have it all figured out? And there is “no reasonable or rational” reason to believe in a god?

See my “Abuse of Reason” comment above. Such conceit.[/quote]

So… “many people have believed in god, so god must be real” is your ace…? WRONG!

There is no rational and no scientific evidence or indications that gods of any sort exists. The fact that you end the entire logical fallacy and ofcourse factual wrong post with one of the most used logical fallacies out there : appeal to authority…

well, you got me there… :slight_smile:

(ps: you did NOT understand the point with the analogy)

80

[quote]kroby wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Therefore, if a thing (whatever it might be) cannot be explained you do not believe in its existence?

I didn’t say that at all. I said the God of the Bible (or the Torah or the Qur’an) does not exist. [/quote]

Yes, I understand your position. But, my question remains: how can you be certain?

But, how do you know? You are guessing it’s incomplete? What do you base this “reality” on?

Then God can exist (as in the Bible) without you or I being able to explain it.

You’re welcome. Thank you.