How Many T-Men Believe in God?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
182

[quote]Adamsson wrote:

Ok, I’ll try this once again, slowly… the fact that jesus existed… does NOT MAKE HIM GOD.

ok? Do you get this simple little fact…?
[/quote]

Ha ha…you really have to stop thinking the world revolves around you. When you do, you make errors just like the one you made above. You see, I was not addressing you. Does it make you think what other errors, of more importance you might be wrong about?

You are not the only Atheist that we have to feed here on T-Nation, there are others you know.

The above was addressed to the Atheist poster who calls himself
“belligerent”. Unless you are he?

Are you?

He was questioning the existence of Jesus Christ.

I fully understand that you are not questioning the fact that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure.

You are very desirous that someone, anyone, prove to you that there’s a God. And no matter how many times that I, or someone else, tells you that it comes down to faith, you just don’t get it.

There, see, I can tell my Atheists apart.

:wink:

183

Oh, one more thing. I would have posted back sooner but I just got out of Church. The only reason I mention this is that this week the sermon was on Atheism.

Coincidence?

184

Atheism isn’t a belief.

I am not sure what I believe, but the more Christians say that good people like Taoists, and Jaines are going to burn in Hell for not accepting Christ (a Jew, so why Christians aren’t Jews I don’t know. Do they think Christ had it wrong?) as their savior, the more I am not so crazy about the Christian church.

BUT I do respect that there is a difference between Church and belief. I see the organization of the Church as more of a political animal.

I was misinformed in that I understood it that the Books of the Apostles were not written contemporaneously with the life of Christ. I was given to understand that they were written by others who wrote what they “heard” from others that what they were writing was the words of the long dead Apostles.

185

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Adamsson wrote:

Ok, I’ll try this once again, slowly… the fact that jesus existed… does NOT MAKE HIM GOD.

ok? Do you get this simple little fact…?

Ha ha…you really have to stop thinking the world revolves around you. When you do, you make errors just like the one you made above. You see, I was not addressing you. Does it make you think what other errors, of more importance you might be wrong about?

You are not the only Atheist that we have to feed here on T-Nation, there are others you know.

The above was addressed to the Atheist poster who calls himself
“belligerent”. Unless you are he?

Are you?

He was questioning the existence of Jesus Christ.

I fully understand that you are not questioning the fact that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure.

You are very desirous that someone, anyone, prove to you that there’s a God. And no matter how many times that I, or someone else, tells you that it comes down to faith, you just don’t get it.

There, see, I can tell my Atheists apart.

:wink:

[/quote]

Yeah, right, you didn’t quote me earlier in the thread and make the same assumptions…

good point…

oh wait

you did!

…

186

ZEB,

I give up. Good grief.

187

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Adamsson wrote:

Ok, I’ll try this once again, slowly… the fact that jesus existed… does NOT MAKE HIM GOD.

ok? Do you get this simple little fact…?

Ha ha…you really have to stop thinking the world revolves around you. When you do, you make errors just like the one you made above. You see, I was not addressing you. Does it make you think what other errors, of more importance you might be wrong about?

You are not the only Atheist that we have to feed here on T-Nation, there are others you know.

The above was addressed to the Atheist poster who calls himself
“belligerent”. Unless you are he?

Are you?

He was questioning the existence of Jesus Christ.

I fully understand that you are not questioning the fact that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure.

You are very desirous that someone, anyone, prove to you that there’s a God. And no matter how many times that I, or someone else, tells you that it comes down to faith, you just don’t get it.

There, see, I can tell my Atheists apart.

:wink:

Yeah, right, you didn’t quote me earlier in the thread and make the same assumptions…

good point…

oh wait

you did!

…

[/quote]

Yes, but then we moved well beyond that. And the post in question was directed to the poster by the name of belligerent.

Wow, if we can’t get beyond this how are we ever going to agree on a topic like the existence of God?

Oh that’s right, we’re not going to agree are we?

I almost forgot.

188

[quote]belligerent wrote:
ZEB,

I give up. Good grief. [/quote]

Didn’t you find that information interesting?

189

[quote]ZEB wrote:
belligerent wrote:
ZEB,

I give up. Good grief.

Didn’t you find that information interesting?[/quote]

Now you just sound like a petty teenager with that snarky remark.

190

just outta curiosity… what the fuck do any of you know about islam besides what you hear on the news to be making statements such as “islam sucks” or using it as an example.

191

One GOD, one TRUTH, one HOLY SCRIPTURE?

=> Suckfest!

What actually stands in there is next to irrelevant even if it does not contain tons of passages with the word “fight”, “kill” or “infidel” in one context or another…

192

[quote]tfhut987 wrote:
just outta curiosity… what the fuck do any of you know about islam besides what you hear on the news to be making statements such as “islam sucks” or using it as an example.[/quote]

You see, some of us has this thing called “research” and “empirical evidence”

they are closly connected… and on the opposite scale from “islam”, “christianity” and other irrational belief systems.

you should try it some day.

193

[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

I am sure you will consider my opinion “overwhelming ignorance” but what you have written appears to be the ramblings of a confused person looking for something to fill a void in their life.

Or maybe it is poetry. I don’t know. I never understood poetry.

They were just my own personal musings. A few glasses of chardonnay in and immersed in plato’s cave. Regardless it was a departure from the ‘to believe or not to believe’. Stagnant and boring. Bible quotes and interpretations aplenty.

Either way, I’m pretty sure there is a void in most peoples lives. Some fill it with donuts and others with heroin. Anti- depressants and feel good pills. Some fill it with their idea of god and call it better.

Everyone seems to be reaching for something. I am just a person who finds purpose and meaning in poetry and music. I don’t mind if you think I’m confused. Since I pretty much think you’re an asshole.[/quote]

No problems because I think you are usually full of shit.

194

Well people have looked up at the sky and believed in a god for ever.Ever since man was capable of looking up.heres my theory, i think a bunch of wise men so to speak got together and thought up christianity and catholicism
to make people live better.

If you never thought that the actions in youre life might be judged poorly when you die you would probably be crazy.But 99% of people think if they go kill someone they will probably go to hell and prison.So the idea of a judgement and a hell and an after life that lasts for eternity that might suck has made a lot of people live better livesAnd since people have been believing in god and jesus for so long and with so much passion that i think things like the dead sea scrolls and the shroud of turin and noahs ark wich alot of folks believe is on top of mt.ararat became real.

I dont necesarilly believe we evolved from monkey but i dont think we came from adam and eve.Cause if we did were all brothers and sisters.I am a firm believer in science and what it has proven.So a couple thing to think about the next time youre questoning the existence of god and wether he created everything.

What was the point of the dinosuars,and evolution is proven.Do a google search on the tunnel worms that live at the bottom of the mariana trench in challenger deep.The deepest part of the ocean in the world.these tunnel worms live on thesesteam vents that spew hot gases that are over 200 degrees hot and heat the water around them to a constant 180 degrees.

So 7 miles below the ocean surface where the water is 180 these tunnell worms live and might be the oldest living species on the planet since not much has changed down there ever.So if god created everything whats the point of them.They evolved from single celled organisms just like everything else.

195

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Oh, one more thing. I would have posted back sooner but I just got out of Church. The only reason I mention this is that this week the sermon was on Atheism.

Coincidence?[/quote]

I’m actually really curious to know what was said about Atheism at this sermon.

I mean that sincerely, for the record.

Oh, and I don’t believe in the existence of any gods.

-Gendou

PS. Except Tiamat. Tiamat’s a badass!

196

Is there a God?

Personally I fall into the Atheist category, but would have to say that agnosticism would be more logical, simply because there is no way of disproving a God.

My “fall from grace” was actually a result of reading Revelations. I found a passage that said no religion would be right during “end-times”. So I started to think seriously about my religion, which brought up a whole host of questions. Such as why there are “versions” of the Bible? Was the current Bible accurate?

What I found out has been interesting. There was a time when the Bible was rewritten each generation for the benefit of a ruler, until King James decided to put together some scholars to create roughly the current King James version popular today. Interestingly much of this version was actually taken from a person who was persecuted for attempting to rewrite the Bible.

Older bible fragments have had shorter, or longer versions of bible books. Goliath is currently listed as being 9 feet 9 inches tall, whereas an older fragment listed him at 6 feet 9 inches. A height much rarer then today.

Some events of the bible have been proven true, but other have been shown to be incorrect. (Sorry)

Now just because a book may not be fully correct, has no correlation as to whether or not there is a God. But it does leave a hole in the whole logic.

Regardless, people do need to be careful not to just throw out everything related to religion just because they do not believe. Contained in Christianity is thousands of years of finding out what works in society and what doesn’t. Just to blatantly be against anything religious is ignorant, and a big mistake.

As I have stated before, when I find an Atheist who is vehemently against religion, I don’t believe they are true atheists, but people who are pissed off a God, or Christianity. They need to find another hobby.

Years ago my daughter was getting into the rebellious phase, and started arguing with me about going to church. She was ready for an argument as to why she should be able to go to church.

I kind of annoyed her by stopping the argument in its tracks by telling her I didn’t have a problem with her going to church. Of all the things she could have gotten into, church wasn’t one that I was worried about.

Now how many know that Jesus never really asked why God had forsaken him? He was actually quoting scripture.

197

[quote]The Mage wrote:
As I have stated before, when I find an Atheist who is vehemently against religion, I don’t believe they are true atheists, but people who are pissed off a God, or Christianity. They need to find another hobby.
[/quote]

Very valid point, and kinda follows on from my description of what it is to be atheist towards ALL supernatural creators. Or at least what it means to me.

If, as a society, we come to the same conclusion that to do ‘A’ is good and to do ‘B’ is bad, in truth what does it matter how we reached that conclusion?

The only time problems arise is when one person says ‘A’ is good, due to whatever method of secular reasoning got them to that conclusion, and the other says it is the worst thing in the world, because God said so.

That’s where we reach an impasse, and specifically why I am 1000% in favour of the strong separation between church and state.

Because regardless of the ultimate truth, my government is only governing me/my country in this life, not the next should it exist. And they have no right to make any decisions based upon any qualities they may perceive my eternal soul (should I have one) either should have, or should acquire.

This is doubly (trebly?) true of many Islamic states where the two are inextricably entwined, but it also seems to be an increasing issue in the US, and also for the first time in ages we up until very recently had a devout practicing Christian as our PM, and that worried people.

Unlike in the US, with us being such a multi-faith country these days it is considered ill-form in the UK for member’s of parliament to discuss political decisions that are informed by one’s faith.

Surely religion is a personal thing, and the responsibility for each person’s soul rests with that person, no?

In the secular world I guess I would just be saying ‘stop being such a Mr. Buttinski and worry about yourself. I’m fine over here thanks and if I’m totally wrong and I have a day of reckoning, I will have no problem in giving an account of myself’.*

  • Unless they ask about all the murders, of course. It was just a bit of fun that got out of hand…
198

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
Which question? if you try to form a rational, mature and sound question, I’ll answer.

Prove anything exists, deductively and irrefutably.

Did you miss the “rational” i demanded…? This is a very red herring, and you know it very well. AND I have already answered the question. There is no way that we kan “prove” 100% in a laymans terms that we don’t live in some kind of computer simulation or in the fantasy of some demon.

But there is nothing that indicates either, therefore we use the things we can measure scientifically to make our laws of the universe. When quantum theory can calculate things that are comparable to calculating the width of the american continent with a 1 hair width accurancy, we know that we are barking up the right tree. Your question is neither legitime or honest, it is a obvious red herring and a troll.

So, again: do you have any MATURE, HONEST and RATIONAL questions you want to ask?

[/quote]

Really? You said you know there is no God and that belivers in God have a weak mind. Yet, when call on the carpet to prove it you could not. So I guess we dumb old believer aren’t so dumb after all.

I never ask question I don already know the answer to. What you refer to as a red herring was really an easy out for you. You don’t have to prove God does not exist. All you had do was to prove anything existed. To describe all the properties of any one thing in it’s entirety to include descibing it’s source. This execrise forces you to deal with the metaphysical, a realm you don’t belive exists. Which therefore put your conclusion that there is no God at risk.

You are right you cannot prove or disprove the existance of God. So unless you can prove it, refrain from feeling and acting superior to those who do not think like you. Otherwise, you could very well look like an ass.

199

[quote]The Mage wrote:

Is there a God?

Personally I fall into the Atheist category, but would have to say that agnosticism would be more logical, simply because there is no way of disproving a God.

My “fall from grace” was actually a result of reading Revelations. I found a passage that said no religion would be right during “end-times”. So I started to think seriously about my religion, which brought up a whole host of questions. Such as why there are “versions” of the Bible? Was the current Bible accurate? [/quote]

This is a common misconception. Some people think that the Bible was written in one language, translated to another language, then translated into yet another and so on until it was finally translated into the English. The fact is that the bible has not been rewritten.

The New Testament was written by Jesus’s dicliples in Greek. We do not have the original documents but we do have around 6,000 copies of the Greek that were made very close to the time of the original documents. The manuscripts agree with each other to almost 100%. Statistically, the New Testament is 99.5% textually pure. The other 1/2% is made up by things like “Jesus” instead of “Jesus Christ”.

There are versions of the bible because translating from Greek to our modern day language can be difficult. As we go through history society is always trying to interpret the bible into the “modern day” language. This is no different from some of the great ancient writers works being translated into “versions” of today’s language. Did you know that there is some controversy about different versions of the Shakespeare’s Hamlet.

Here is a quote about the play’s different versions from wikipedia. “Later quartos and folios are considered derivative of these, so are of little interest in capturing Shakespeare’s original text. Q1 itself has been viewed with skepticism, and in practice Q2 and F1 are the editions editors mostly rely upon. However, these two versions have some significant differences that have produced a growing body of commentary”.

If this kind of arguing is going on with Shakespeare’s work, someone who is well documented and only lived 400 years ago, what do you expect to hear about the writing of the early Christian church from 2000 years ago. Men are always trying to tweak the ancient manuscripts to fully explore how it could be said in today’s language.

What version lists Goliath as 6’ 9"?

Many archeological digs have proven various Bible stories to be true. However, I’m not aware of any that have been proven to be incorrect.

Again, what event are you speaking of?

[quote]Regardless, people do need to be careful not to just throw out everything related to religion just because they do not believe. Contained in Christianity is thousands of years of finding out what works in society and what doesn’t. Just to blatantly be against anything religious is ignorant, and a big mistake.

As I have stated before, when I find an Atheist who is vehemently against religion, I don’t believe they are true atheists, but people who are pissed off a God, or Christianity. They need to find another hobby.[/quote]

They do seem to come off as being mean and bitter don’t they?

[quote]Years ago my daughter was getting into the rebellious phase, and started arguing with me about going to church. She was ready for an argument as to why she should be able to go to church.

I kind of annoyed her by stopping the argument in its tracks by telling her I didn’t have a problem with her going to church. Of all the things she could have gotten into, church wasn’t one that I was worried about. [/quote]

It seems that you have an open mind.

He was always quoting scripture from the OT to fulfill what was written about what he did.

200

[quote]pat36 wrote:

Really? You said you know there is no God and that belivers in God have a weak mind. Yet, when call on the carpet to prove it you could not. So I guess we dumb old believer aren’t so dumb after all.

I never ask question I don already know the answer to. What you refer to as a red herring was really an easy out for you. You don’t have to prove God does not exist. All you had do was to prove anything existed. To describe all the properties of any one thing in it’s entirety to include descibing it’s source. This execrise forces you to deal with the metaphysical, a realm you don’t belive exists. Which therefore put your conclusion that there is no God at risk.

You are right you cannot prove or disprove the existance of God. So unless you can prove it, refrain from feeling and acting superior to those who do not think like you. Otherwise, you could very well look like an ass.[/quote]

The flaw in your reasoning is of course that if he cannot even prove his own existence, despite there being strong empirical evidence for his existence, your assumption that there is a God, based on no empirical data whatsoever is not even worth a second glance.

If it is all in your mind, you little sollipsist, your God, bible etc is too and you might as well kill yourself.

IF you, for practical reasons, deal with a world existing outside your own head, his assumptions that a thing he has no empirical proof of does not exist, is definitely superior to the belief in a deities existence without anything tp back it up except anectotal evidence.

What is next Unicorns, Mermaids, Santa Claus?

PROVE that they do not exist and explain why their existence is less likely than your Gods.

201

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Adamsson wrote:

Albert Einstein was not a christian, and he did not believe in a theist god. He did explicitly clarify this, BEACAUSE christian people took his quotes out of context to use them to forward their cause. FALSE

And you are taking my words out of context to use them to forward your cause.

I clearly stated:

“Here is one more. And while he (Einstein) did not accept the God of the Bible, he did “know” that God existed:”

And you must know that when you do things like that you only harm your own credibility and cause.

You’re going to have to suck it up. Einstein thought there was a higher power. And Einstein was presumably smarter than you.

What does this mean?

Not a thing to me.

But, I can only assume it must hold plenty of weight with you since you attempted to twist my words to further your own point.

  1. You think that appeal to majority makes an argument more logically valid or more solid?

I’m more interested in what the many are seeing that you’re not seeing. And I used the example that I did because of your nonsensical examples.

People like T.S. Elliot, C. S. Lewis and J.R Tolkien might not have had as sharp a mind as you…but somehow I doubt it.

Did they understand something you do not?

Democracy is not a good tool to decide what’s right and what’s wrong, especially not when it comes to religion.

That’s funny, when testifying in court the more reliable and numerous witnesses the stronger the case.

There were witnesses to Christ thus making the case stronger.

And you still have not explained why all of these men would die for a lie? Don’t people lie to live?

Isn’t that more logical?

The fact that some of Jesus’ followers believed that he was god, doesen’t make him god.

You have it backwards. That does not make him God. He was already God and those who died knew this and that’s why they died.

Of course I’m sure you have a better explanation it’s just that you seem to want to keep it for yourself.

The fact that Jesus suffered for his philosophy is not something that is very special for him. Ghandi did this, Buddah… many people has.

Very good point. But, while it may not be “special” it does show that the person is forthright in his beliefs. Not one to change on a dime and run or lie to save his own life.

Why did they suffer for their respective philosophies?

Did they do this because they were liars or fakes?

Noooooooo…they did it because they truly believed in their philosophy.

Jesus Christ was on earth for a mission. He could only tell the truth even if it meant death. And in fact he came to die. And he did it for sinners like you and I.

(I know you enjoyed reading that, I’ll post more of that stuff if you like:)

The thing is, you fail to show other than “well, many people believe, therefore it must be true and right to believe”-kind of evidence. That doesen’t hold up here.

Ha ha…it doesn’t have to “hold up”.

God gave you a free will, you can believe whatever you’d like.

I’ve chosen my path and so have you (so far).

I’ve posted some very good evidence, scroll back. Historians, eye witnesses, archeological digs etc.

I’m not attempting to prove anything really. I’m simply explaining to you and whoever wants to join in the many reasons that people become Christians.

It’s not that because 2 billion people are Christians then it must be right.

It’s that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence which points to,

  1. Christ having lived.

  2. The Bible being accurate.

  3. Many who were close to Christ dying horrible deaths because of what they saw-first hand.

When the over 2 billion people put it together they came to the same conclusion that I did.

But again, you have to remember it’s about faith, as there is no iron clad proof that would sway you or any die hard atheist.

Faith my man…some have it some don’t.

;)[/quote]

No, Einstein did NOT believe in a higher force, that is my point. He believed in nature, and used the term “god” and similar terms about nature and how nature works as it does. This has been debunket several times, if you get the book “the god delusion” you have several sources and original quotes from Einstein on this. This is a populare myth, it doesen’t make it more correct.

When it comes to your “well, jesus lived and the bible is accurate”

Yes, there is quite a lot of evidence that jesus lived, no, there is not a lot of evidence that the bible is accurate. On the contrary, the bible is contradictory and incoherent.

Again you try both appeal to authority AND appeal to majority… both are logical fallacies… :slight_smile: The fact that J. R. R. Tolkien was a religious man, doesen’t make religion good. How you can jump to that conclusion is just insane.

That is in no way a logical sound argument. I could ofcourse reverse it (still not logically sound) and say: “how about the incredible large percentage of nobel price winners that are atheists?” or… “how about all research showing that atheism correlates with higher degree of education” etc…