Homosexuality, Choice or Genetic

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
361

[quote]HotCarl28 wrote:

This is still based on a cause/effect relationship. The immune system isn’t learning and planning in the sense that sentient organisms with a nervous system do.

But if u argue that this is purpose u basically have to say the immune system is conscious (which im actually not opposed to). Its not conscious in the exact same way as a nervous system but it is conscious. This can be extended then to basically anything that is able to respond to an ever changing environment (Check out The Web of Life by Fritjov Capra) he has an interesting take on this idea

Anyway regardless of the semantics game we are playing with purpose i just wanted to clear up the misconception that some ppl have with how evolution occurs
[/quote]

The immune system is actually part of the nervous system to the extent that the thoughts you think can and do affect your lower brain centers and which in turn effect your immune systems actions. The formal study of this is called psychoneuroimmunology.

All these interacting systems have the sole purpose to maintain stasis and ultimately survival.

I think part of our disagreement is your use of the term “purpose”. You appear to be using it in some other manner that it’s true meaning:

  1. the reason for which something exists or is done, made, used, etc.
  2. an intended or desired result; end; aim; goal.
  3. determination; resoluteness.
  4. the subject in hand; the point at issue.
  5. practical result, effect, or advantage: to act to good purpose.
  6. to set as an aim, intention, or goal for oneself.
  7. to intend; design.
  8. to resolve (to do something): He purposed to change his way of life radically.
  9. to have a purpose.
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[quote]HotCarl28 wrote:
This is to ZED.

Earlier u said something to the effect of “if even one person is converted than it is not genetic”
this is not actually correct and i apologize if this was just lazy wording on ur part…
it would be more correct to say if even one person is converted than it is not wholly genetic"

for instance even if psychologists find as u stated that there are various events in early childhood that cause one to become a homosexual, the trait can still be heavily genetic. Children may be born with a predisposition to be able to respond to those early childhood situations in different ways. Some may be more predisposed to cope in a way that causes them to later develop homosexual feelings while others may not.

Thus, converting them back later in life does not mean the trait has no genetic basis

The other problem with the idea of the studies that u stated is that if this is the case it would be very hard to trace the genetics. For instance if many other ppl in the family had these same genes that would predispose them to becoming a homosexual, but only if the correct environmental stimulus was there (absent father or something), the trait may never be realized because none of these folks had an absent father

in this way it would cause u to underestimate the genetic contribution

another problem with determining the degree to which genetics plays a role in homosexuality is that the pedigree is not the best because of the repression of overt homosexuality in the past. Thus it may be difficult to glean much from family histories[/quote]

I actually agree with you on this one.

Twins studies demonstrate that approx. 1/4 of chronic disease is genetic; meaning the other 3/4 is lifestyle - choice - related.

So if we can apply the results of these studies to being gay it would conclude that some gays may be genetic, but most are gay by choice.

Also, it should be pointed out that other studies on genetics and disease seem to indicate that even those with a certain gene linked to a disease, some do not get the disease due to other lifestyle factors. So even having the gene does not guarantee disease.

This would mean that even if someone had the “gay gene”, some could still choose not to be gay.

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[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Primalfear,
as a late thread visitor, why should you bother to read or challenge any of the arguments already made? Why not just present the usual gays-are-disgusting-because-they-choose-to rant. Bravo.

primalfear wrote:
Being gay is a choice…tell me that anyone of you either male or female were sitting in the sandbox at 3 yrs old and said to yourself “man id like to stick my pee pee in that lil dudes diaperhole”
What? Apparently, in Primalfearland, three year olds are already super hetero studs.

primalfear wrote:
Please get real, any choices we make in life wheteher its religous, sexual, or political party are all chosen as we become to an age of understanding. The whole gay thing is just another way to get more privleges and benefits from the govt like all the minorities in this country do.
As if you made a deliberate choice for ANY of these.
If you’d be primalhussein from Iraq, chances are well over 90% you’d be a muslim, if you’d be primalpundit from Mumbay, you’d be hindu, primalivan would be orthodox etc.
Same goes of course for sexual and political preferences of the masses (you, for instance).

[/quote]

May the shwartz be with you, all you did was just prove my point that Mormons should get the right to marry as many women as they want. Do you notice that in the Mormon community or even the Amish WHICH MAKES A BETTER POINT. The societies in which they seperate themselves on purpose statistically proves low crime rates and low immoral acts.

Have you heard about the the crazy amish guy that went and raped and murdered dozens of people today? NO YOU DIDNT, WHY YOU ASK? Cause those societys have and live a higher moral ground in which America the greatest country in the world seems to falling in a pit of gays gays gays and craven immorality.

After ww2 we as a society are going down the proverbial tube, and if our fore fathers who stole all this nice land cause the indians didnt fight hard enough for it, thought for one second that there should be some gay rights in the constitution, im sure they discussed it…but im sure they didnt caquse its not supposed to exist.

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[quote]primalfear wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Primalfear,
as a late thread visitor, why should you bother to read or challenge any of the arguments already made? Why not just present the usual gays-are-disgusting-because-they-choose-to rant. Bravo.

primalfear wrote:
Being gay is a choice…tell me that anyone of you either male or female were sitting in the sandbox at 3 yrs old and said to yourself “man id like to stick my pee pee in that lil dudes diaperhole”
What? Apparently, in Primalfearland, three year olds are already super hetero studs.

primalfear wrote:
Please get real, any choices we make in life wheteher its religous, sexual, or political party are all chosen as we become to an age of understanding. The whole gay thing is just another way to get more privleges and benefits from the govt like all the minorities in this country do.
As if you made a deliberate choice for ANY of these.
If you’d be primalhussein from Iraq, chances are well over 90% you’d be a muslim, if you’d be primalpundit from Mumbay, you’d be hindu, primalivan would be orthodox etc.
Same goes of course for sexual and political preferences of the masses (you, for instance).

May the shwartz be with you, all you did was just prove my point that Mormons should get the right to marry as many women as they want. Do you notice that in the Mormon community or even the Amish WHICH MAKES A BETTER POINT. The societies in which they seperate themselves on purpose statistically proves low crime rates and low immoral acts.

Have you heard about the the crazy amish guy that went and raped and murdered dozens of people today? NO YOU DIDNT, WHY YOU ASK? Cause those societys have and live a higher moral ground in which America the greatest country in the world seems to falling in a pit of gays gays gays and craven immorality.

After ww2 we as a society are going down the proverbial tube, and if our fore fathers who stole all this nice land cause the indians didnt fight hard enough for it, thought for one second that there should be some gay rights in the constitution, im sure they discussed it…but im sure they didnt caquse its not supposed to exist.[/quote]

Ahem… go look up the crime rates of gay communities.

You have been pwned, please leave thread now troll.

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[quote]primalfear wrote:
The point was you childish human beings is that where does it stop? Can anyone have an adult conversation without the fucking insults? You cannot give a privelage to one american and not give the same to another.

The point is whether you believe its genetics or choice, if you let homos get married then farmer fred can marry his horse and yes mormons should be able to be a polygamist. Its in there genetics too…isnt it? Its what they always knew and belived to be right…so you cant say you were born gay in one breath and expect privleges unless you give way to all the depravities of this sick society.[/quote]

Ya, I’m guessing you’re a closet gay dude. Like my brother was for a long time. Looking at your avatar, you definetly fit the profile of a gay “muscle bear”. This is a type of gay guy that I never knew about. They are big, masculine and not too lean with beards. You know, burly lookin’ dudes. My bro is teaching me all the different “types”. My brother is definetly a muscle bear and he likes muscle bears.

It’s ok man, just let the hatred go. They are just people who are into something that has absolutely nothing to do with you, or does it?

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primalfear,

Did you read the post I made about my brother? Do you give a shit about people? Or do you blindly bash things you don’t understand?

The true symptom of ignorance - bash anything you don’t understand.

An opinion should be formed from in depth thought and experience not in place of thought and experience. You, like me once, never had to deal with someone very close being gay. Well it happened to me, my younger brother is gay. And holy shit, has my outlook changed. I however never had any anamosity towards gays because gays never did anything to me.

This is how people like you work, unless it affects you or someone you love greatly, you don’t give a fuck.

SAD…

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[quote]BlaKistKneeGrow wrote:
primalfear,

Did you read the post I made about my brother? Do you give a shit about people? Or do you blindly bash things you don’t understand?

The true symptom of ignorance - bash anything you don’t understand.

An opinion should be formed from in depth thought and experience not in place of thought and experience. You, like me once, never had to deal with someone very close being gay. Well it happened to me, my younger brother is gay. And holy shit, has my outlook changed. Thats the way it works, unless it affects you or someone you love greatly, you don’t give a fuck.

SAD… [/quote]

The only sad part is…that you actually accept his behavior. so basically whats you are saying if he was a crackhead murderer its ok cause it affects you and its your brother so i still love him? Fucking moron, unnatural is wrong period regardless if its a family member. If anyone of my family harmed anyone of my family in anyway and yes if they were gay, i would kick them to the fucking curb…live like a law abiding normal human being or crawl in a hole.

I dont need to understand anything about that lifestyle to know dick does not go in ass…have you explained that to him or did you just give him a pat on his ass and say go for it brother i still love you? People like you that accept such depraved behaviour is why this society is riddled with disease and sickness…wallow in it and enjoy butt boy!

368

I have a question for all the people who have somehow come to the opinion that gay people choose to be attracted to men.

How do you know this without being inside the mind of a gay person?

It’s like me saying that you choose to be attracted to womens asses or breasts. You’ll sit there and argue with me to no end because you know what you feel. I have no way of knowing whether or not you choose this attraction because I AM NOT YOU!!!

Wow, this really doesn’t make any sense now! How the FUCK do you choose attraction? Attraction is a natural force, it has nothing to do with choice.

I don’t like skinny women, I like volutious women.

Prove that I am choosing to be attracted to voluptious women.

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[quote]primalfear wrote:
An opinion should be formed from in depth thought and experience not in place of thought and experience. You, like me once, never had to deal with someone very close being gay. Well it happened to me, my younger brother is gay. And holy shit, has my outlook changed. Thats the way it works, unless it affects you or someone you love greatly, you don’t give a fuck.

SAD…

The only sad part is…that you actually accept his behavior. so basically whats you are saying if he was a crackhead murderer its ok cause it affects you and its your brother so i still love him? Fucking moron, unnatural is wrong period regardless if its a family member. If anyone of my family harmed anyone of my family in anyway and yes if they were gay, i would kick them to the fucking curb…live like a law abiding normal human being or crawl in a hole.

I dont need to understand anything about that lifestyle to know dick does not go in ass…have you explained that to him or did you just give him a pat on his ass and say go for it brother i still love you? People like you that accept such depraved behaviour is why this society is riddled with disease and sickness…wallow in it and enjoy butt boy![/quote]

I don’t understand why he likes dudes either. I don’t hate things just because I don’t understand them.

Since you brought up anal sex, why do men like having anal with women?

Uh, he didn’t hurt anyone in my family. You are comparing crack head murderers to consenting sexual preference. You really are lost. Our society is fucked up because fucked up people such as yourself don’t like to live and let live. Gay people don’t affect you no matter how hard you try to believe they do. You are angry over something that has nothing to do with you.

I’d love for you to talk like this to my brothers face, I think you underestimate things. Just because he likes dudes doesn’t mean he can’t handle business. Same goes for a lot of gay dudes. Not sure what it’s like in South Carolina, but I’d be carefull how you pop off with the mouth with every gay guy you encounter. Karma will come back to haunt your 300 pound fat ass.

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[quote]BlaKistKneeGrow wrote:
Our society is fucked up because fucked up people such as yourself don’t like to live and let live.[/quote]

Not to mention the fact that they’re allowed to breed.

371

[quote]conner wrote:
BlaKistKneeGrow wrote:
Our society is fucked up because fucked up people such as yourself don’t like to live and let live.

Not to mention the fact that they’re allowed to breed.[/quote]

Live and let live is a statement for people who have no rules or structure in there life. Live and let live gets people killed by diseases

Do you honestly remember that poor young boy i believe in the late 80’s who contracted AIDS through a blood transfusion? Did that poor young kid deserve that because your live and let live society allowed some asshole fag or drug abuser to give tainted blood to a young kid that hasny even started his life. Get fucking real thinking that homos dont hurt anyone…tell that to that poor young boy!

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[quote]conner wrote:
BlaKistKneeGrow wrote:
Our society is fucked up because fucked up people such as yourself don’t like to live and let live.

Not to mention the fact that they’re allowed to breed.[/quote]

Speaking of breeding…

If homosexuality is genetic, then a religious government forcing homosexuals to live a heterosexual, reproductive lifestyle only causes homosexuality to be bred into the population.

It’s practically in the Religious Right’s best interests to openly accept homosexuality. With all the gays out of the closet, none will be “fooling” themselves into heterosexual unions and breeding more gays!

Give that a few generations and gayness might be bred out.

Not that I think they should be. The world needs talented interior designers.

ElbowStrike

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[quote]conner wrote:
BlaKistKneeGrow wrote:
Our society is fucked up because fucked up people such as yourself don’t like to live and let live.

Not to mention the fact that they’re allowed to breed.[/quote]

Brings up an interesting question. Is homophobia genetic or a choice?

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“Join date: Dec 2007
Location: South Carolina, USA
Posts: 33”

…

primalfear = obvious troll

GTFO My Internets, pleez.

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KneeGrow, I’m sorry to say it but you’re probably wasting your time. You’re trying to logically argue against someone with an illogical fear. Much like trying to talk a schizophrenic out of hearing voices, or reason with someone with OCD. It just doesn’t work.

I wouldn’t be suprised if you were right about primal being a closet case, he certainly seems to fit the bill of someone with internalized hatred. Furthermore, like other homophobes, he wants very badly to fit in with society (despite how much of an individual he claims to be). So, even if you could reason with him, he would still turn around and continue with the same bullshit so he can consider himself “normal”.

Look on the brightside, though. At least his hateful rants on here arent doing any direct harm to anyone, and anyone offended always has the option to navigate away from the page. I know thats little consolation, but its much better than he and a likeminded group going out and attacking someone because they suspect they are gay.

On a more personal note, I think I can say I understand your postion fairly well, and let me tell you, it sucks sometimes. I’m not gay (was curious a few years ago, hooked up with a couple of guys, couldnt get into it). However, I’m an advocate of gay rights and equality (to the idiots reading that: yes, equality means not having your sexuality doubling as an insult).

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I am gay. For all you confused people out there, I never chose to be gay. All the gay people I know never chose to be gay. I grew up my whole life knowing I was gay but hid it from the whole world till I was 21. I’ve known I was gay for as long as I can remember. I enjoy the company of other men. I don’t know why but I do. I’m sure there may be some phsycological explanation or maybe not. All I know is that I get complete satisfaction being with men. I could never be with a women even if I tried, and I have.

So what is this primalfear guy doing posting hateful shit about gays online here. He sounds incredibly ignerant. Wether or not this guy or anyone else on this planet thinks the gay lifestyle is wrong, me along with millions of other people had to grow up insecure and confused about why they like the same sex and why they are hated for something they cant change.

As for primalfears statement about how unatural homosexuality is, so fucking what. What we do behind closed doors is our buisness. And who decides what is natural and unatural when it comes to sex? Not you or anyone else. It feels amazing. And it’s not all about sex. I enjoy the company of other men as well and doing normal things that men to women couples do.

Lifes to short to be pissed off and worried about talking shit about gay people online. I used to be just like you when I was younger. Always trying to talk shit about gay people to cover up a part of who I realy was. Always trying to look and be tuff. This primalfear fella along with many other ignorant people who have a high possibility of being gay reminds me of myself years ago.

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[quote]ModernLifeIsWar wrote:
I am gay. For all you confused people out there, I never chose to be gay. All the gay people I know never chose to be gay. I grew up my whole life knowing I was gay but hid it from the whole world till I was 21. I’ve known I was gay for as long as I can remember. I enjoy the company of other men. I don’t know why but I do. I’m sure there may be some phsycological explanation or maybe not. All I know is that I get complete satisfaction being with men. I could never be with a women even if I tried, and I have.

So what is this primalfear guy doing posting hateful shit about gays online here. He sounds incredibly ignerant. Wether or not this guy or anyone else on this planet thinks the gay lifestyle is wrong, me along with millions of other people had to grow up insecure and confused about why they like the same sex and why they are hated for something they cant change.

As for primalfears statement about how unatural homosexuality is, so fucking what. What we do behind closed doors is our buisness. And who decides what is natural and unatural when it comes to sex? Not you or anyone else. It feels amazing. And it’s not all about sex. I enjoy the company of other men as well and doing normal things that men to women couples do.

Lifes to short to be pissed off and worried about talking shit about gay people online. I used to be just like you when I was younger. Always trying to talk shit about gay people to cover up a part of who I realy was. Always trying to look and be tuff. This primalfear fella along with many other ignorant people who have a high possibility of being gay reminds me of myself years ago.[/quote]

Two questions:

  1. If I told the same story you just told but indicated that I grew up gay and now I have come out as being straight. And I now realize I was straight all along, I was just to afraid to tell anyone, would you accept that? Or does this scenario only apply the other way around?

  2. You state that your lifestyle doesn’t hurt anyone and it is two adults behind closed doors, etc…; if that is the case, why do gay men have a higher occurrence of mental AND physical disease/conditions than the straight population? (Check the CDC website for facts)

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primalfear (of homosexuals),

Live and let live means -

Live your life and let others live theirs. YOU ARE NOT GOD. You can’t control others. As long as nobody is harming YOU, leave them the fuck alone. Yes, gay people spread diseases. So do straight people. You can’t say that a little boy picked up a disease and it’s because of every homosexual who ever walked the earth and that they are all bad, evil people. That’s like saying that all black people are bad because crime rates among blacks are high. Same exact logic. You are lost.

Every single one of your little examples make no sense and on a mass scale, intelligent people would laugh at your dumb ass. Ignorant close minded, live in a box people would however agree with your stupid ass little examples.

That is why society is fucked up. Sheeple like you. Keep following your heard.

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[quote]Lorisco wrote:
2) You state that your lifestyle doesn’t hurt anyone and it is two adults behind closed doors, etc…; if that is the case, why do gay men have a higher occurrence of mental AND physical disease/conditions than the straight population? (Check the CDC website for facts)
[/quote]

My brothers lifestyle doesn’t hurt anyone. He is a good person and a good uncle to my daughter. His gay relationships don’t effect my life or anyone elses.

Mental and physical disease are rampant all over the world. Maybe mental problems are higher in the gay community. Look however at what they have to deal with growing up and throughout their life. You think that the world looking down on who you are your entire life wouldn’t contribute to you having mental problems? There are many scenarios. What if you were a closet gay person, growing up in a religious family that didn’t accept gays. You knew you were gay, but also knew by coming out, your family would disown you. This happens all the time. You think that wouldn’t cause mental problems?

You are taking a group of individuals that have struggled their entire life to fit into society, and asking why they have mental problems? I think you answered your own question.

As for physical disease, read my above response to primalfear(of homosexuals).

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[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
KneeGrow, I’m sorry to say it but you’re probably wasting your time. You’re trying to logically argue against someone with an illogical fear.[/quote]

The liberal lie is to frame this debate as if there is actually “fear” involved. Then if someone speaks out they are labeled as “homophobic”.

Very good Cap, but it’s old and not so many people are buying into this nonsense.

More liberal, politically correct lies! Again, if anyone opposes the homosexual agenda they are hateful.

You’re making me laugh Cap.

Your entire argument is an insult to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.

Let me know when you’re ready to answer the volumes of data which clearly indicate that many homosexuals who WANT to change are able to. You ducked that debate earlier in the thread, remember?