Every topic in this here forum is a tar baby.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
But your previous post was essentially that it’s a very commonly accepted fact…and that ain’t really true.[/quote]
No, I said that it’s obvious to anyone willing to look.
Problem is, very few people are willing to look.
[quote]Therizza wrote:
Every topic in this here forum is a tar baby. [/quote]
I’m sure Brer Pushharder would characterize it thusly:
One day, Brer Varq went ter wuk en got 'im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w’at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot 'er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be.
En he didn’t hatter wait long, nudder, kaze bimeby here come Brer Push pacin’ down de road–lippity-clippity, clippity -lippity–dez ez sassy ez a jay-bird. Brer Varq, he lay low. Brer Push come prancin’ 'long twel he spy de Tar-Baby, en den he fotch up on his behime legs like he wuz 'stonished. De Tar Baby, she sot dar, she did, en Brer Varq, he lay low.
“Mawnin’!” sez Brer Push, sezee - “nice wedder dis mawnin’,” sezee.
Tar-Baby ain’t sayin’ nuthin’, en Brer Varq he lay low.
“How duz yo’ sym’tums seem ter segashuate?” sez Brer Push, sezee.
Brer Varq, he wink his eye slow, en lay low, en de Tar-Baby, she ain’t sayin’ nuthin’.
“How you come on, den? Is you deef?” sez Brer Push, sezee. “Kaze if you is, I kin holler louder,” sezee.
Tar-Baby stay still, en Brer Varq, he lay low.
“You er stuck up, dat’s w’at you is,” says Brer Push, sezee, “en I’m gwine ter kyore you, dat’s w’at I’m a gwine ter do,” sezee.
Brer Varq, he sorter chuckle in his stummick, he did, but Tar-Baby ain’t sayin’ nothin’.
“I’m gwine ter larn you how ter talk ter ‘spectubble folks ef hit’s de las’ ack,” sez Brer Push, sezee. “Ef you don’t take off dat hat en tell me howdy, I’m gwine ter bus’ you wide open,” sezee.
Tar-Baby stay still, en Brer Varq, he lay low.
Brer Push keep on axin’ ‘im, en de Tar-Baby, she keep on sayin’ nothin’, twel present’y Brer Push draw back wid his fis’, he did, en blip he tuck ‘er side er de head. Right dar’s whar he broke his merlasses jug. His fis’ stuck, en he can’t pull loose. De tar hilt 'im. But Tar-Baby, she stay still, en Brer Varq, he lay low.
“Ef you don’t lemme loose, I’ll knock you agin,” sez Brer Push, sezee, en wid dat he fotch ‘er a wipe wid de udder han’, en dat stuck. Tar-Baby, she ain’y sayin’ nuthin’, en Brer Varq, he lay low.
“Tu’n me loose, fo’ I kick de natal stuffin’ outen you,” sez Brer Push, sezee, but de Tar-Baby, she ain’t sayin’ nuthin’. She des hilt on, en de Brer Push lose de use er his feet in de same way. Brer Varq, he lay low. Den Brer Push squall out dat ef de Tar-Baby don’t tu’n 'im loose he butt 'er cranksided. En den he butted, en his head got stuck.
Den Brer Varq, he sa’ntered fort’, lookin’ dez ez innercent ez wunner yo’ mammy’s mockin’-birds.
“Howdy, Brer Push,” sez Brer Varq, sezee. “You look sorter stuck up dis mawnin’,” sezee, en den he rolled on de groun’, en laft en laft twel he couldn’t laff no mo’.
Varq, you got a great sense of humor. It was a pleasure reading this thread (or at least this page or so).
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
and the civilians? Civilians are never neutral. You are either for or against, active or passive. Assuming the civilians shared the same views as their “heroes”, than these bombs found the right home.
You’ve opened a door for a wide variety of evil with that attitude. I suppose those Chinese civilians deserved all the trouble the Japanese gave them then.
Nope. It wasn’t the Chinese who invaded and started a war. Invalid comparison.
[/quote]
Why? I trust the Chinese took the side of their defenders.
mike
[quote]aussie486 wrote:
Dustin wrote:
I speak from experience, people have tried to kill me, and I have tried to kill them. Hurting
people is easier then you think.
Please tell me you are not in the military.
Thats what you do in the military, you kill.
[/quote]
Yes, but you don’t kill indiscrimately like a rabid dog.
mike
Golly gee willikers, Push, you done figgered me all out.
Now that I pause and reflect, I come to the realization that’s what you have described is none other than my modus operandi, to a big old capital T.
Guess I’d better go hang my head in shame now.
Farewell, T-Nation. It’s been fun, but I have met my match in Brer Push.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Golly gee willikers, Push, you done figgered me all out.
Now that I pause and reflect, I come to the realization that’s what you have described is none other than my modus operandi, to a big old capital T.
Guess I’d better go hang my head in shame now.
Farewell, T-Nation. It’s been fun, but I have met my match in Brer Push.[/quote]
el oh el
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
aussie486 wrote:
Dustin wrote:
I speak from experience, people have tried to kill me, and I have tried to kill them. Hurting
people is easier then you think.
Please tell me you are not in the military.
Thats what you do in the military, you kill.
Yes, but you don’t kill indiscrimately like a rabid dog.
mike
[/quote]
Rabid dog, interesting term,
Been reading some of the suvivor’s accounts of the Bataan death march, appears to be a perfect term for the Japanese soldiers behaviour during the march, evil is another term that goes with it in that context.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Chushin wrote:
But your previous post was essentially that it’s a very commonly accepted fact…and that ain’t really true.
No, I said that it’s obvious to anyone willing to look.
Problem is, very few people are willing to look.
Push wrote:
I understand what you’re saying but I bet the Japanese, if able, would pluck your beating heart from your chest and feed it to their dogs if they heard you compare them to the Koreans.
and you responded:
[i]No, they wouldn’t.
The Japanese are clever enough to recognize the similarities of prewar Japan to present-day North Korea, and it’s a characterization I’ve heard from several Japanese.
There are, furthermore, enough cultural, linguistic, and ethnologic similarities between Japan and Korea that the fact that the two peoples are essentially the same race separated by a narrow spit of ocean is pretty obvious to anyone willing to look.
Even the current Japanese emperor, Akihito, has acknowledged that the Imperial family tree has Korean roots.[/i]
Sounds to me like you’re saying the Japanese pretty much accept the fact that the Koreans are their brethren.
If not, why did you respond in that way to Push’s comment?
[/quote]
Because he missed my point the first time around.
I gave four statements of fact to counter Pushharder’s misconception.
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That no, the Japanese would not pluck my beating heart from my chest and feed it to the dogs (my justification for this fact is that I have compared the Japanese to the Koreans on several occasions, to their faces, in Japanese, and while they haven’t all agreed, the result has been intelligent conversation, not angry dispute, and certainly not not heart-ripping and dog feeding.)
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That in fact, the Japanese recognize the similarities between their prewar society and that of the current North Koreans… which was, as Pushharder evidently failed to comprehend, the extent of my original comparison.
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But that regardless, if he wanted to talk ethnological comparisons, even that would be justified, because there are similarities between the two peoples, perhaps even to the extent that they are the same race.
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And that finally, even the emperor, the man who 60 years previously would have been thought a god incarnate, and whose father (the man in fact whose delay in capitulation inspired the two atomic blasts that are the topic of this conversation) was indeed considered so, has admitted that his ancestors were Korean.
Go back and read my posts again, Chushin. See if you can find where I imply that I think that “the Japanese pretty much accept the fact that the Koreans are their brethren.”
If you’re honest, I think you’ll admit that all I said were those four facts above.
How you consider this to be an example of unjustifiable contrarianism is somewhat of a mystery to me.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
All I have to do is obliquely say something not entirely complimentary to the Yuuuuuuunited States of Amerigo Vespucci, or else something not entirely critical of one of our imagined enemies, and there you appear out of nowhere, guns a’ blazin’ and flags a’ wavin’, defending the sacred honor of the hallowed Homeland, and expressing outrage at the audacity of the blasphemer.
Awesome - so you want to be Lixy when you grow up.[/quote]
No more than you want to be Jeff R when you grow up.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Not every commonly-held opinion needs to be refuted, and sometimes a preponderance of the evidence makes a certain opinion, well, pretty much right.[/quote]
I’d appreciate it, Chushin, if you would identify all of the refutations of commonly-held opinions that I have made in this thread. 'Cause I’ll be goshdarned if I can find any.
I agree that not every commonly held opinion needs to be refuted, but many do. Mostly because many commonly held opinions don’t have a preponderance of evidence supporting them, just a preponderance of suckers who believe them.
And every idea worth having today was once a refutation of some previously believed bullshit.
That little story you gone done written sure was funny, Mr. Varq.
One a side note: Can we have a recap of the opinions voiced by the main players? It’s so hard to keep things in their little boxes.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Ye be lookin’ a duel to the death right squarely in ye eyes[/quote]
Pistols at 20 paces. At sunset!
[quote]Therizza wrote:
That little story you gone done written sure was funny, Mr. Varq.
One a side note: Can we have a recap of the opinions voiced by the main players? It’s so hard to keep things in their little boxes.[/quote]
Yeah, Therizza, I’ll try. For the sake of brevity (soul of wit, and all that), and to avoid inflaming things further (as if it could be avoided), I’ll paraphrase, and edit out some of the snark. My apologies if my paraphrasing misrepresents anyone’s actual opinion.
Varq: I find it ironic that the United States, in order to defeat the ‘heathen’ Japanese (1), ended up killing two-thirds of the Christian population of Japan with the bombing of Nagasaki.
Genghis: It wasn’t a religious war, and we bombed plenty of Christians in Europe, too.
Thunder: It’s not ironic at all, because it wasn’t a religious war.
Varq: Here’s a propaganda film released in 1943 to inform Americans how bad the Japanese were. Funny, considering that before the war, Americans for the most part did not have as negative an opinion of the Japanese. (2)
Push: Please enlighten us as to whether, based on your long experience in Japan, you believe that the prewar Japanese held an positive inclination toward the Americans equivalent to that which you postulate that the prewar Americans held toward the Japanese.
Thunder: Of course they did. The Japanese, being neither Christian nor Western, were incapable of such personality traits as racism-inspired colonialism and imperialism. Only Americans can be such, as they are not Noble Savages. (3)
Push: It is my understanding that the Japanese were just as negatively predisposed toward the Americans as they were toward the Chinese, and furthermore it is my considered opinion that had they been able, they would undoubtedly have inflicted the same degree of rape, murder and destruction upon the denizens of Los Angeles as they did upon the hapless inhabitants of Nanking. Lastly, may I offer my observation that you tend to be objective only when your original statements have been challenged. In light of this, I would appreciate it if you would provide us with a similar example of dehumanizing propaganda produced by the Japanese?
Thunder: Here is a political cartoon, ostensibly produced by the Japanese before the war, depicting Franklin Delano Roosevelt removing his mask to reveal a hideous demon face underneath. I offer it as evidence that the Japanese did see their enemies as subhuman, thereby refuting Varqanir’s implied statement that the Japanese never engaged in such activities. (4)
Varq: Is that cartoon supposed to be depicting Roosevelt? Here is another cartoon, produced in America, which more accurately captures the essence of Prime Minister Hideki Tojo.
Thunder: That is irrelevant to the point at hand, namely, the paradox of how the Japanese, who are, according to your previous statements, unstained Noble Savages incapable of racist imperialism (and thus totally unlike unlike the Americans and other Westerners, who are demonstrably racist imperialists who invented colonialism and the dehumanization of their enemies), and who coincidentally also bombed Pearl Harbor, could possibly, against their noble natures, engage in the dehumanization of enemies! You must explain this paradox, just as soon as you have explained how America’s war with Japan was a Holy War to wipe out Japanese heathens. (5)
Varq: Forgive me, Thunder, for ignoring you. I promise I’ll address you just as soon as you say something interesting. (6) Push, the easiest way to understand the prewar Japanese is to imagine them as the current North Koreans: just as the current North Koreans are uneducated, uninformed, and kept in the dark by a militaristic, megalomaniac government, so too were the prewar Japanese. Oh, and by the way, here is the propaganda film you requested, which the Japanese government used to dehumanize the imagined American enemy in the minds of Japanese children.
Push: I am of the considered opinion that the Japanese would react extremely negatively to hearing your implied comparison of themselves and the Koreans. In fact, I predict that they would indeed forcibly extract your still-pulsating cardiac muscle and offer it as sustenance to their domestic canids.
Varq: No, they wouldn’t. The comparison of prewar Japanese society to current North Korean society is one I’ve heard from several Japanese. Plus, it’s obvious to anyone who is willing to look into such things that the Japanese and the Koreans are essentially the same race. Even the emperor admits this.
Chushin: I am of the opinion that you are distorting the facts in order to avoid stating the ugly truth: namely that Koreans in Japan are very poorly treated, and viewed as inferior. Furthermore, my finding, based on my personal experience with Koreans in Japan, is that they deny that they are the same race as the Japanese.
Varq: I don’t deny that the Koreans are treated badly, nor that they have been treated badly for a long time. However, that’s completely beside the point. The fact is that the Japanese are descended from Koreans.
Chushin: I don’t disagree. That’s a fact, in my opinion. But you previously stated that it is a very commonly accepted fact.
Varq: No, I didn’t. I said that it’s a fact that is obvious to anyone willing to look into it. Most aren’t.
Chushin: That being the case, how do you explain your response to Push? You make it sound like the Japanese pretty much accept the fact that the Koreans are their brethren.
Varq: My response was to correct Push’s misunderstanding of what I originally said, which was that “the prewar Japanese may easily be understood by examining the present-day North Koreans.” And now it appears that you have misunderstood my second statement. From which part of “the comparison of prewar Japanese society to current North Korean society is one I’ve heard from several Japanese. Plus, it’s obvious to anyone who is willing to look into such things that the Japanese and the Koreans are essentially the same race. Even the emperor admits this” do you get “the Japanese pretty much accept the fact that the Koreans are their brethren”?
Push: Chushin, allow me to interject that I am of the opinion that your previous statement has proven my hypothesis that Varqanir, when formulating a statement, intentionally withholds or misrepresents certain salient facts until his statement is challenged, at which time he acknowledges the previously concealed modicum of additional information, whilst feigning innocence that this was, in point of fact, his ploy from the outset.
Varq: You’re right, Push. I’m sorry. Best friends forever, right?
Chushin: I think that Varq just has a strong contrarian streak, which isn’t all bad, except that he is sometimes too contrary. Not every opinion needs to be refuted. Sometimes the fact that a commonly-held opinion has a preponderance of evidence behind it is proof that it is correct.
Varq: I agree that not every commonly held opinion needs to be refuted, but many do. Many commonly held opinions have nothing more to recommend them than the fact that they are commonly held. After all, most of what we believe today was once a refutation of a previously-belived fallacy. (7)
[center]NOTES[/center]
[i]1. This characterization was by no means uncommon during the war: popular songs such as When We Set that Rising Sun (1945), for example, proclaimed that Japan was ‘a land of heathen people’ with ‘no respect for God or man.’
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Full disclosure: this is not actually accurate. Further research has revealed that many Americans actually did have negative opinions about the Japanese, that were presumably formed independently of any propaganda campaign.
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I suspect that Mr. Thunder is employing sarcasm in this statement.
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I believe this is commonly known as a “straw man”. Of course, I may be just as guilty of this, considering that I am reading all of the above into the cartoon and Thunder’s statement “Oh, ultimate heart-ache.” I could be mistaken as to his intent, of course, but I doubt it.
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I believe that both of these statements could also be considered “straw men”, inasmuch as I neither stated nor implied either of the points that Mr Thunder is ridiculing.
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Okay, so I didn’t actually say this. But I sure was thinking it.
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“I’m not sure I want popular opinion on my side; I’ve noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.”–Bethania McKenstry