Hell Is Real And Souls Go There

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

(Let’s leave the New Testament out of this discussion for a moment)

[/quote]

Hey, can we do that at will in a discussion? Chop off the parts that directly address a subject?

That would be mighty convenient! I’m gonna start trying that one out from time to time.[/quote]

Yes I can make that restriction, and you prove why I do so:
If it cannot be found in the Old testament, then why does it appear in the New Testament, and from what source?[/quote]

A Jewish rabbi who grew up as a carpenter’s son. Now if that’s all he ever was then his views can be summarily dismissed.[/quote]
But he liked to drink, party, hang out with whores and fish so we shouldn’t dismiss him entirely.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

(Let’s leave the New Testament out of this discussion for a moment)

[/quote]

Hey, can we do that at will in a discussion? Chop off the parts that directly address a subject?

That would be mighty convenient! I’m gonna start trying that one out from time to time.[/quote]

Yes I can make that restriction, and you prove why I do so:
If it cannot be found in the Old testament, then why does it appear in the New Testament, and from what source?[/quote]

A Jewish rabbi who grew up as a carpenter’s son. Now if that’s all he ever was then his views can be summarily dismissed.[/quote]

“However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you If you do not act on upon them?”

“Even death is not to be feared by one who has lived wisely.”

“All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become.”

All attributed to an Indian ascetic who grew up as a prince. Would you say that his views can be summarily dismissed even if that’s all he ever was?

Jesus’ teachings stand on their own merit. Cake does not cease to be cake just because you’ve scraped off the glittery frosting.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

(Let’s leave the New Testament out of this discussion for a moment)

[/quote]

Hey, can we do that at will in a discussion? Chop off the parts that directly address a subject?

That would be mighty convenient! I’m gonna start trying that one out from time to time.[/quote]

Yes I can make that restriction, and you prove why I do so:
If it cannot be found in the Old testament, then why does it appear in the New Testament, and from what source?[/quote]

A Jewish rabbi who grew up as a carpenter’s son. Now if that’s all he ever was then his views can be summarily dismissed.[/quote]

“Not directly, you see,” says the Devils Advocate. “What you are reading is the report of what a carpenter’s son said and did.”
So?
“And where in the OT is the origin of that? If you cannot find it, perhaps it came from a source other than the OT.”

The attack on the D.A.'s position is to find the source material for Hell in the OT, and that is why I–er, the D.A.-- posed the question the way I–he–did.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

I am inclined to believe that a God that created the universe, and the quadrillions of stars, could probably stop a person from being struck by lightning. That’s peanuts compared to creation of the universe. What if he can stop it, but doesn’t stop it from happening?[/quote]

Exactly. I am interested to know what the community’s response to this is.[/quote]

Well, actually, I was asking you personally for your opinion with that last statement since you brought it up lol[/quote]

Ah haha. I see.

To be honest with you, I think that it leads to the inescapable conclusion that such a God as originally described does not exist. Perhaps He is not omnibenevolent. Perhaps (and I agree with you that this seems less likely) He is not capable of intervening. Perhaps He is not omniscient. Perhaps He simply doesn’t care. Or, perhaps He doesn’t exist at all.[/quote]

Once again this thread is escaping my limited abilities to keep up with it. I’m interested in the first part and not really the last. For the purposes of this one I think we both can say lets assume God exists. Can you unpack this? I don’t follow the first inescapable conclusion.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

I understand where you’re coming from but you’re demanding something you’re not going to get in entirety in this life – you’re demanding all the answers without faith.

Redemption and faith. The two central themes of the Scripture.

You don’t need – you can’t supply enough – works to be redeemed. But you can – you must – supply the faith.

You’ve got to humble yourself and say, “God, I don’t get you. I am confused. It seems as though you differ from the Old Testament to the New. You say you want to be close to me but you seem so far away if you exist at all. But I am a mere man, a mortal created being and I defer to your infinite wisdom, power and grace. I will trust you, put my faith in you, and let you captain my ship. I understand you won’t instantly flood my mind and soul with all the answers but I’m just going to do the Nike thing and believe in you regardless of where it takes me. I’m going to do what seems to be so tough for me and have faith in something intangible. Help me.”[/quote]

I do understand, but here’s the thing: I’m making no demands. I’m simply saying that I won’t believe things without a reason to believe them, and I won’t believe extraordinary things without an extraordinary reason to believe them.

To draw a secular analogy, Stephen Hawking says that “because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.” I don’t believe him, because I don’t see the evidence of it. (In this case, it doesn’t help that I can’t understand whatever evidence there is. But, still, I find this notion something of an enormous reach.)

You want people to suspend their skepticism with regard to Christianity. But why Christianity? Belief in Agni and the other Vedic gods requires an equal amount of faith, and there is no reason that I wouldn’t choose to believe in them. Come to think of it, why not choose to believe in Gravity, as Hawking does, rather than in YHWH? Agni, Gravity, YHWH, Zeus, Ahura Mazda–there needs to be a logical reason to choose one over the other.[/quote]

Yep!
If you accept one without evidence, why not accept the rest? Because you weren’t raised/indoctrinated to believe in Horus, or Odin, or Zeus, or…
New flavour of the week/century/millenia

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
They were very real to the Greeks, the Egyptians and the Norse.

You’d be in big trouble had you implied that they were not to the devout believers in Sparta, Alexandria and Oslo. [/quote]
And that’s the problem with the religious. It is real to them and that’s enough for it to be real. Belief is not truth. [/quote]

And one day it will be Real Truth to you also. Just wait.
[/quote]
Who said it wasn’t already? The problem with most who claim to be religious is that they are fundamentalists. Faith without doubt. [/quote]

Is it doubt or their unwillingness to question? You can not doubt God exists and be a believer. You can question God of why? King David in the Bible did it all the time. I also question God about why things happen the way they do. It is hard to see through my eyes, but when you look back at history you can see parts to the question why.
[/quote]

It’s their unwillingness to search for the truth. They don’t have faith, they have simply been convinced. It’s not about the existence of God but the arrogance to believe they know God, speak for God…speak with God. Fundamentalists believe everything we need to know about existence is known. It has been shown to us by God via whomever claimed he speaks for Him. The things we don’t know, don’t need to be known. Any question that cannot be answered with scripture is not worth pondering, let alone answering. [/quote]

How do you come to have any opinion at all in life without being convinced of it? I think you should rephrase what you’re saying here because to me it doesn’t make any sense. I am convinced of all my currently held opinions or believes on science, on the Patriots, on the Chiefs being 9-0 and lucky, all of that. You don’t reach a single belief in your life that you aren’t “simply been convinced of”.

I’d also take issue with your comment that Fundamentalists believe everything we need to know about existence is already known…blah blah blah scripture and not pondering. I’ve never met one that thought we should stop researching drugs, or medical procedures, or physics, or math, or biology, or chemistry, or cryptography, or anything. You made a silly statement with that, it is indefensible and I believe that you know it. Your feelings on religion aside–or for that matter certain hot button issues currently being quarreled over–that is a manifestly false statement and you cannot defend it. The most you can say is that you haven’t really bothered talking to them very much. [/quote]

Faith requires, by definition, the presence of doubt. If someone says they KNOW God exists how is it possible? They actually have irrefutable evidence? No. Yet somehow they are convinced He exists. Now, you take someone who believes God exists. He knows there is no proof. He knows he cannot prove He exists to someone else. He believes God exists but he doesn’t say he knows God exists. You can say that, that person is also convinced however, if you read what I wrote, I qualified convinced with simply. One goes from convinced to belief then belief creates truth. The other goes from truth to belief to being convinced. There is a difference between those who need to be convinced and those who need to see the truth. It’s like a detective who is convinced that someone is guilty and then looks for the evidence that supports that belief versus the one who follows the evidence.

Do you know what fundamentalist means? Tell me how many support stem cell research? Evolution? Gay rights? None do otherwise they wouldn’t be fundamentalists. Besides that, I wrote existence. I didn’t write math, science, etc. I am talking about questions like why are we here? What are we supposed to do? Questions involving the human condition.

[/quote]

I know quite well what fundamentalist means. I had to grow up in Kansas thankyouverymuch. And yes, there are a number of them that I know support stem cell research. Fundamentalist does not mean Fred Phelps and you know that. To be opposed to gay marriage is not the same as being for gays being discriminatorily fired, or not hired, or kept from school, or against legislation that would prohibit that, or any of the other manifest treasons that were visited upon the african american community before Dr. King and even after that.

There are questions that involve the human condition in science, math, biology, chemistry, and all the others. If you are not aware of that you are in trouble. But you are, and I know you are. You are confusing being against CERTAIN issues or things with being against ALL research or things. They can be silly for those opinions, but you are making a false and universal claim. It is not defensible, and you know it is not defensible.

As for the rest, you should have just posted your example of the detective to clear things up. The way you originally wrote the post was ambiguous at best.

I think this thread grows at a rate that matches my reading pace, much like the unending staircase. I’ve read a ton of pages today but still behind and I actually don’t think I’m getting any closer to finishing…is this an MC Escher painting in text?

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Once again this thread is escaping my limited abilities to keep up with it. I’m interested in the first part and not really the last. For the purposes of this one I think we both can say lets assume God exists. Can you unpack this? I don’t follow the first inescapable conclusion.[/quote]

Sure thing.

The original argument went: in a world governed by an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, evil could not exist. Anything that happens in such a world happens only be the leave of God, who is infinitely powerful and therefore infinitely capable of stopping anything from happening. If God is omnibenevolent, he will not allow evil, or injustice, or “bad” things to happen. (At least to good people) So, if evil exists, then such a God cannot exist.

It would be like a cartoon strip drawn exclusively by a devout Muslim: in the context of the “world” of that cartoon, Muhammad could never be drawn, because the devout Muslim cannot make an image of the prophet. So, if an image of Muhammad showed up in the cartoon “world,” then the other cartoon beings could deduce–they are capable of deduction and thought in this hypothetical–that their creator is not what they thought he was. That is, either not a devout Muslim, or not the sole drawer of the cartoon, or not either of those things.

That was the argument. But, Christians (correctly) made the point that evil is necessary for free will, and free will is “just.”

The problem is that this does not excuse “natural” evil, or “injustice.” A human infant being struck and killed by lightning, for example. Such things have nothing to do with free will, obviously, and they happen all the time. So–how can an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God coexist with natural evil? God knows it will happen, God has the power to stop it, and, being infinitely just, God “wants” to stop it. And yet, He doesn’t stop it.

For me, the inescapable conclusion of this conundrum is that such a God–omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent–does not exist. We all know Jesus. Great dude. It is nonsensical, in my view, to think that He, He of of love and peace, He who asked his father to forgive them, watches infants and small children and innocent women and good men drown, suffocate, burn, and suffer every single day, with the power to intervene (at no inconvenience to Him), without doing anything about it?

In making this point, I draw an analogy. I’ll change it a little here. A man is walking in the woods and he comes upon a human infant at the foot of a muddy hill. Above the infant, and sliding slowly toward it, is an enormous boulder. The man can easily move the child, and it will survive. Instead, he stands there, watching, as the boulder slowly slides down the hill. After a minute, it reaches the infant and crushes it, killing it instantly.

This is exactly what an omniscient and omnipotent being is doing every single time an innocent human life is prematurely lost because of natural evil. I say that this disproves the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God.

Two (probably ultimately related) responses were offered up in refutation of this. The first was essentially, “God works in mysterious ways.” The second was that anything God does is just, so, when an infant has been allowed by God to die by lightning strike, no injustice has been done–because God let it happen, and God is infinitely just and infinitely good.

I am satisfied with neither of these. Each has huge problems, so far as I’m concerned. However, the argument tends to move in circles from there.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
I’m simply saying that I won’t believe things without a reason to believe them, and I won’t believe extraordinary things without an extraordinary reason to believe them.[/quote]

Ask Him for the reason. Earnestly ask him. With humility.

Ask Him for the reason for which sect/denomination/religion. Earnestly ask him. With humility.
[/quote]

I am not being disingenuous when I say that I am open to doing this at some point in my life. I’m an agnostic theist, after all, so I can’t rule out the possibility that such a God exists.

My question to you is this: What if I do this, and no response comes but silence? Would you not agree that, in such an eventuality, I should go on believing exactly what I believe?

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
I’m simply saying that I won’t believe things without a reason to believe them, and I won’t believe extraordinary things without an extraordinary reason to believe them.[/quote]

Ask Him for the reason. Earnestly ask him. With humility.

Ask Him for the reason for which sect/denomination/religion. Earnestly ask him. With humility.
[/quote]

I am not being disingenuous when I say that I am open to doing this at some point in my life. I’m an agnostic theist, after all, so I can’t rule out the possibility that such a God exists.

My question to you is this: What if I do this, and no response comes but silence? Would you not agree that, in such an eventuality, I should go on believing exactly what I believe?[/quote]

You also need to prepare yourself in advance for the eventuality of getting a response that tells you to sacrifice your firstborn on a mountaintop, travel to Egypt to pursuade President Mansour to let your people go, then build a really big boat and fill it up with as many animals as you can find.

Unlikely, but these things happen from time to time, so I’m told.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

…I am satisfied with neither of these…

[/quote]

You will never be satisfied with any explanation except nihilism. So embrace it.

Then see if you can enjoy your life. See if you can live a life with purpose.[/quote]

Well, I’m not a nihilist, and I’m pretty satisfied as of now.