I am inclined to believe that if a god exists that can create universes, then he also creates the laws under which those universes operate. This god would not be “bound” by those laws, but it would serve no purpose to break them. If an electrostatic discharge on one of the quadrillion worlds orbiting one of those quadrillion stars in one of those universes happens to intersect the path of one of the inhabitants of one of those worlds, I see no reason for this god to personally alter the laws of electromagnetism to prevent it from happening.
This does not necessarily mean that this god has “allowed evil to happen” or that he is “powerless” to stop it, or even that “he doesn’t care”, any more than you or I should be held personally responsible when a free radical oxidizes one of the cells in our bodies.
Stuff happens. [/quote]
But, by definition, if he knows it is going to happen, and has the ability to stop it from happening, and yet it happens anyway, then he has “allowed” it to happen.
Anyway, this is not really meant as an attack on the god of the Deist, which is the god you’ve more or less described. It is instead meant to question the authenticity of the supremely good, supremely powerful, and supremely interested God of Abraham and Isaac.
I am inclined to believe that a God that created the universe, and the quadrillions of stars, could probably stop a person from being struck by lightning. That’s peanuts compared to creation of the universe. What if he can stop it, but doesn’t stop it from happening?[/quote]
Exactly. I am interested to know what the community’s response to this is.[/quote]
You’ve got to lift off from the platform that God is just like a person only with a whole bunch more power.
You cannot insist that He thinks like you do.[/quote]
The “mysterious ways” defense.
I figured you’d offer it up. And I don’t blame you, because it’s the only one. But it pretty much kills all talk about God, all thought about God.
But let’s look a little closer. I have one single question:
You believe that there exists an objective morality. You believe furthermore that this objective morality is known, in whole or in part, by you through the avenue of your religion. So answer me this: Is it always “bad” for an innocent infant to be killed?
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Even the mightiest, most benevolent and wisest king can’t prevent the fox from stealing the occasional chicken. And even of he could, should he?[/quote]
If someone has the power to prevent tragedy, with no inconvenience to himself, and chooses not to do it, then what do we say of this man?
Think of my earlier line about the coyote. I carry a pistol and wander in the night. I come upon a coyote preparing to eat an abandoned baby in the wilderness. I watch it eat and then go on my way. What kind of man am I?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
By the way, why would you use the word “hypothesis” here?[/quote]
Because a hypothesis is an idea that has not been tested with actual evidence, but is supported by supposition. In my estimation, this is what Dmaddox presented.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Even the mightiest, most benevolent and wisest king can’t prevent the fox from stealing the occasional chicken. And even of he could, should he?[/quote]
If someone has the power to prevent tragedy, with no inconvenience to himself, and chooses not to do it, then what do we say of this man?
Think of my earlier line about the coyote. I carry a pistol and wander in the night. I come upon a coyote preparing to eat an abandoned baby in the wilderness. I watch it eat and then go on my way. What kind of man am I?[/quote]
Einstein said he didn’t believe in a god that played dice. Heisenberg showed that in fact Einstein was mistaken: God plays with a nearly infinite number of dice, each with a nearly infinite number of faces.
I don’t believe in a god who micromanages the cosmos. A god who allows supernovas to wipe out entire solar systems is not going to divert a single electrostatic discharge in order so that one living organism will live another day. This is nothing against God. Stuff just happens.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Even the mightiest, most benevolent and wisest king can’t prevent the fox from stealing the occasional chicken. And even of he could, should he?[/quote]
If someone has the power to prevent tragedy, with no inconvenience to himself, and chooses not to do it, then what do we say of this man?
Think of my earlier line about the coyote. I carry a pistol and wander in the night. I come upon a coyote preparing to eat an abandoned baby in the wilderness. I watch it eat and then go on my way. What kind of man am I?[/quote]
Einstein said he didn’t believe in a god that played dice. Heisenberg showed that in fact Einstein was mistaken: God plays with a nearly infinite number of dice, each with a nearly infinite number of faces.
I don’t believe in a god who micromanages the cosmos. A god who allows supernovas to wipe out entire solar systems is not going to divert a single electrostatic discharge in order so that one living organism will live another day. This is nothing against God. Stuff just happens. [/quote]
I tend to agree. However, you’re not describing the God of Christianity–the one who has opinions of homosexual sex and adultery and the foreskin. The one who created and saves people, who is a jealous God, who is supremely interested in the comings and goings of man, even in the comings and goings of the contents of his mind and heart.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And if it wasn’t a coyote eating a baby human, but a spider eating a fly, would you still pull the trigger on the spider?[/quote]
I would not.
But I would save the baby, as I am utterly sure you would too.
The question is, would God?
And the answer is no, so far as anybody has the ability to tell.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Even the mightiest, most benevolent and wisest king can’t prevent the fox from stealing the occasional chicken. And even of he could, should he?[/quote]
If someone has the power to prevent tragedy, with no inconvenience to himself, and chooses not to do it, then what do we say of this man?
Think of my earlier line about the coyote. I carry a pistol and wander in the night. I come upon a coyote preparing to eat an abandoned baby in the wilderness. I watch it eat and then go on my way. What kind of man am I?[/quote]
Einstein said he didn’t believe in a god that played dice. Heisenberg showed that in fact Einstein was mistaken: God plays with a nearly infinite number of dice, each with a nearly infinite number of faces.
I don’t believe in a god who micromanages the cosmos. A god who allows supernovas to wipe out entire solar systems is not going to divert a single electrostatic discharge in order so that one living organism will live another day. This is nothing against God. Stuff just happens. [/quote]
I tend to agree. However, you’re not describing the God of Christianity–the one who has opinions of homosexual sex and adultery and the foreskin. The one who created and saves people, who is a jealous God, who is supremely interested in their comings and goings of man, even in the comings and goings of the contents of his mind and heart.[/quote]
Well, no, of course not. That would be silly. Such a god would be just like a person only with a whole bunch more power, and that thinks like you do. You can’t lift off from such a platform.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Even the mightiest, most benevolent and wisest king can’t prevent the fox from stealing the occasional chicken. And even of he could, should he?[/quote]
If someone has the power to prevent tragedy, with no inconvenience to himself, and chooses not to do it, then what do we say of this man?
Think of my earlier line about the coyote. I carry a pistol and wander in the night. I come upon a coyote preparing to eat an abandoned baby in the wilderness. I watch it eat and then go on my way. What kind of man am I?[/quote]
Einstein said he didn’t believe in a god that played dice. Heisenberg showed that in fact Einstein was mistaken: God plays with a nearly infinite number of dice, each with a nearly infinite number of faces.
I don’t believe in a god who micromanages the cosmos. A god who allows supernovas to wipe out entire solar systems is not going to divert a single electrostatic discharge in order so that one living organism will live another day. This is nothing against God. Stuff just happens. [/quote]
I tend to agree. However, you’re not describing the God of Christianity–the one who has opinions of homosexual sex and adultery and the foreskin. The one who created and saves people, who is a jealous God, who is supremely interested in their comings and goings of man, even in the comings and goings of the contents of his mind and heart.[/quote]
Well, no, of course not. That would be silly. Such a god would be just like a person only with a whole bunch more power, and that thinks like you do. You can’t lift off from such a platform.
:)[/quote]
Well said. I’ve always found circles to be the most elegant figures.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And if it wasn’t a coyote eating a baby human, but a spider eating a fly, would you still pull the trigger on the spider?[/quote]
I would not.
But I would save the baby, as I am utterly sure you would too.
The question is, would God?
And the answer is no, so far as anybody has the ability to tell.[/quote]
I would save the baby because it is a member of my own species.
Would a god save another infant god from being engulfed by a collapsing universe?
That would be the standard by which one should judge the behavior of gods.
