Health Provisions Slipped in Stimulus Bill

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

Two questions

  1. have YOU read the bill? Have YOU read the specific parts quoted in the piece yet? If not, can YOU really authoritatively say that the article is wrongheaded?.[/quote]

Yes, I read the text of the bill being referred to. To answer your question, I never said the article was wrongheaded, I said that it was clearly biased. I was not making a judgement of fact on the article, but rather a judgement of motivation.

[quote]
2) Do you really, REALLLLLY think that of all the things we could do to fix the healthcare system, that slipping in and UNDEBATED, unrefined plan for an additional gov’t bureaucratic organization to oversee something it has NO expertise in is the answer? I certainly hope not…[/quote]

Do I think that government is the best eventual answer? No. Is it better than relying on our current system? Yes. To be honest, I don’t understand your point about the government having no expertise in oversight of a system that the bill is supposedly putting in place. Medicare alone is one of the largest medical oversight organizations in the world. From my experience, most medical professionals and their business staff would rather deal with Medicare than with United Healthcare or Aetna. That being said, I do believe that with proper incentives in place, a private solution will ultimately be best.

[quote]I think debate over the health system is good. Change could be good for it too. The problem is there IS NO debate over these “health Provisions”. No planning, no revising, no editing, no “wait, should we even do this??” thought process. Hell, most laypeople don’t even KNOW about this. I’d even wager a good portion of our LAWMAKERS don’t know about this. After all the fucking bills damn near a million pages long.

Whether it’s a conservative thinktank that exposes this or not makes no difference. The fact of the matter is that this is a HUMONGOUS change in the way the healthcare system is run that should never be passed into law without serious protracted debate on the subject. And the citizens’ input. Anything less is an affront to our chosen system of government in spirit, if not in letter.[/quote]

Personally, I am in favor of some public works projects. The digitalization of medical records is one that I am all in favor of. However, my personal preference would be for Congress to address a stimulus by doing three things: 1. create a system whereby small businesses can purchase into larger risk pools for health insurance and 2. using the $800B to expand the SBA lending programs and 3. provide tax credit incentives for companies to create and implement systems and products in the energy and medical records areas. Just my two pennies.

[quote]snipeout wrote:

Some funny stuff [/quote]

How in the hell did you turn this:

Into this:

lol. “provide information” = “decide what is necessary”??? lol.

[quote]ajcook99 wrote:
Aragorn wrote:

Two questions

  1. have YOU read the bill? Have YOU read the specific parts quoted in the piece yet? If not, can YOU really authoritatively say that the article is wrongheaded?.

Yes, I read the text of the bill being referred to. To answer your question, I never said the article was wrongheaded, I said that it was clearly biased. I was not making a judgement of fact on the article, but rather a judgement of motivation. [/quote]

Ok. Oftentimes a charge of “bias” against something is an implicit argument that the article/person/source is clearly wrong, so that’s what I took from your comment.

[quote] 2) Do you really, REALLLLLY think that of all the things we could do to fix the healthcare system, that slipping in and UNDEBATED, unrefined plan for an additional gov’t bureaucratic organization to oversee something it has NO expertise in is the answer? I certainly hope not…

Do I think that government is the best eventual answer? No. Is it better than relying on our current system? Yes. To be honest, I don’t understand your point about the government having no expertise in oversight of a system that the bill is supposedly putting in place. Medicare alone is one of the largest medical oversight organizations in the world. From my experience, most medical professionals and their business staff would rather deal with Medicare than with United Healthcare or Aetna. That being said, I do believe that with proper incentives in place, a private solution will ultimately be best.[/quote]

But here’s the problem: when you say “do I think gov’t is the best EVENTUAL answer? No”, you are assuming that the gov’t will find a bureaucratic solution that is temporary. It is a maxim that there is nothing more permanent than a temporary gov’t program/agency. Therefore your implicitly assumed premise–that the govt is a good interim answer-- is fatally flawed. Gov’t will not relinquish control to the market. Not now, not ever.

I don’t have experience dealing with Medicare vs. Aetna et al. You may very well be right. However, this is something that deserves debate (see below).

[quote] I think debate over the health system is good. Change could be good for it too. The problem is there IS NO debate over these “health Provisions”. No planning, no revising, no editing, no “wait, should we even do this??” thought process. Hell, most laypeople don’t even KNOW about this. I’d even wager a good portion of our LAWMAKERS don’t know about this. After all the fucking bills damn near a million pages long.

Whether it’s a conservative thinktank that exposes this or not makes no difference. The fact of the matter is that this is a HUMONGOUS change in the way the healthcare system is run that should never be passed into law without serious protracted debate on the subject. And the citizens’ input. Anything less is an affront to our chosen system of government in spirit, if not in letter.

Personally, I am in favor of some public works projects. The digitalization of medical records is one that I am all in favor of. However, my personal preference would be for Congress to address a stimulus by doing three things: 1. create a system whereby small businesses can purchase into larger risk pools for health insurance and 2. using the $800B to expand the SBA lending programs and 3. provide tax credit incentives for companies to create and implement systems and products in the energy and medical records areas. Just my two pennies. [/quote]

I’m not talking about public works projects as a whole. Digitalization of records also has a lot to recommend itself. HOWEVER, this sort of overhaul to the healthcare system, and that is precisely what it is, is NOT SOMETHING YOU PIGGY BACK ON A BILL WITH NO DEBATE OVER ITS MERITS. [u]EVER.[/u] That’s why I say passing this portion of the bill without extended debate over whether it should even exist, or what specific form it should exist in, is an affront to our chosen system of government. It is offensive. That’s my primary point, and it makes me sick to my stomach to think of those retards in Congress trying to do something like that.

You want gov’t involved in healthcare, fine. Debate it publicly on the floor of Congress. Pass it the right way. I’ll still disagree, but at least democracy will be served, and that’s the whole point of our country. But don’t even think about slapping us collectively in the face by piggy backing this damn albatross on an already unrecoverably bloated piece of shit stimulus bill to try and get it into law without the People’s say so.

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:

Some funny stuff

How in the hell did you turn this:

"(4) provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care;

Into this:

Take a look at #4. That doesn’t scare you at all? Another group of people(very much like those in insurance companies)deciding what kind of medical care is necessary.

lol. “provide information” = “decide what is necessary”??? lol.

[/quote]

Because anytime the government “guides” anything they fuck it up. Be smarter than Barney Frank tells you to be, or don’t and believe everything you are told and read, don’t question a thing, ever.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

I’m not talking about public works projects as a whole. Digitalization of records also has a lot to recommend itself. HOWEVER, this sort of overhaul to the healthcare system, and that is precisely what it is, is NOT SOMETHING YOU PIGGY BACK ON A BILL WITH NO DEBATE OVER ITS MERITS. [u]EVER.[/u] That’s why I say passing this portion of the bill without extended debate over whether it should even exist, or what specific form it should exist in, is an affront to our chosen system of government. It is offensive. That’s my primary point, and it makes me sick to my stomach to think of those retards in Congress trying to do something like that.

You want gov’t involved in healthcare, fine. Debate it publicly on the floor of Congress. Pass it the right way. I’ll still disagree, but at least democracy will be served, and that’s the whole point of our country. But don’t even think about slapping us collectively in the face by piggy backing this damn albatross on an already unrecoverably bloated piece of shit stimulus bill to try and get it into law without the People’s say so.[/quote]

I agree that we would all be better served to have a Congressional requirement, and for that matter, state legislative requirement for one bill, one issue. At least every issue would directly go through the debate and voting process.

Wrapping items into bills is an act that both parties have been about equally guilty of in recent history. The downside is that you would create an incredible log jam of bills and futher gridlock.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:

Some funny stuff

How in the hell did you turn this:

"(4) provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care;

Into this:

Take a look at #4. That doesn’t scare you at all? Another group of people(very much like those in insurance companies)deciding what kind of medical care is necessary.

lol. “provide information” = “decide what is necessary”??? lol.

Because anytime the government “guides” anything they fuck it up. Be smarter than Barney Frank tells you to be, or don’t and believe everything you are told and read, don’t question a thing, ever.

[/quote]

lol “provide information” = “decide what is necessary” = government guiding" lol

OMG, there’s a secret socialist agenda behind providing information!!!11!!1!!!

[quote]100meters wrote:
Yes, it reads scary, by design! Of course…it isn’t true, McCaughey just makes it up out of thin air. You could of course just read the Bill!
[/quote]
you really are simple aren’t you? Let take a look at this shall we.

Hmmm…let’s take a look at what this unelected official will be responsible for…

Who makes the law? We know who should be making laws. Our elected officials. Unfortunately they have granted this power to unelected bureaucrats every chance they get. Not quite what the constitution had in mind.

The federal gov’t reducing errors? What does reducing health disparities mean? Advances the deliver how? What does patient-centered medical care mean?

An unelected bureaucrat with no guaranteed knowledge of healthcare, much less specific medical procedures, deciding what appropriate care is. I would prefer my doctor do this. I really don’t need the gov’ts help on this. Will we have a choice to opt out of this?

Again, I don’t need a bureaucrat in the operating room with me the doctors and nurses. How could this possibly end well?

Not sure what this means. My medical care is no ones business but my own. I don’t need any public input.

The federal gov’t is going to do this? Please give me one example where the federal gov’t has improved coordination of anything.

Not a big fan of FEMA, but I guess they’ve done such a bang up job, why not create another federal institution to give it a shot. BTW, local gov’t already handle these things. Usually by county in coordination with the regional hospitals. I am sure federal involvement will streamline this process.

regulation

Again, this is already being handled locally. Is this really an epidemic in this country?

This is just plain funny. A federal bureaucracy promoting a more effective marketplace, competition, increased choice, and improved service? That’s funny, I don’t who you are.

Here we go again with health disparities. What does this mean? I can eat cheese burgers and smoke cigarettes and the gov’t will ensure there is no disparity between my health and anyone else?s?

It is a bureaucracy like any other. FDA, USDA, SEC, FAA, etc. They will become legislator, police, judge and jury like the rest of them. What don’t you get?

and the fed will help them make the appropriate medical decisions after they all review the applicable information. yeah, that will speed things up. Again, I wasn’t aware of an epidemic in need of action.

Unlike you, the rest of us live in the real world. We understand all to well what this means. What do you think their budget will be? Do you really think federal involvement can improve health care in any way? Who would you rather deal with in discussing a discrepancy, American Express or the IRS? If you have to send something very important, what service do you use, US mail or FedEx? Do we need to keep going?

As long as Nationalized Health Care is run by someone like Tim Geither, we should be fine.

why are you guys freaking out about this now? you should have been doing this a decade ago.

none of this is new, its already being done everywhere by the Feds, local govn’t, and insurance companies. This is just more of the same, well funded more of the same. And with the insurance companies doing such a piss poor job in our country, im going to be optimistic on this one, that it will improve things. i mean shit the insurance companies have set the bar pretty low.

and Dhickey, all your questions in your last post can be answered in any public health 101 book, and probably the first few chapters too.

you don’t seem to know much about how medical care works in the US. you have very little input for your own care, sure you can refuse certain things but that’s about it, your care is not dictated between you and your doc. Your doctor probably doesn’t know your name if he didn’t have a clipboard, your care is dictated between the doctor and your insurance company.

and google health disparities, you dont seem to have a grasp on that concept.

yes we could be pretty close to having several epidemics on our hands, TB, VRE, MRSA,are huge problems in hospitals at the moment. Were also up for another flue epidemic. And with the growing popularity of parents not getting vaccinations for their kids, people abusing antibiotics, were setting ourselves up for more problems.

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:

Some funny stuff

How in the hell did you turn this:

"(4) provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care;

Into this:

Take a look at #4. That doesn’t scare you at all? Another group of people(very much like those in insurance companies)deciding what kind of medical care is necessary.

lol. “provide information” = “decide what is necessary”??? lol.

Because anytime the government “guides” anything they fuck it up. Be smarter than Barney Frank tells you to be, or don’t and believe everything you are told and read, don’t question a thing, ever.

lol “provide information” = “decide what is necessary” = government guiding" lol

OMG, there’s a secret socialist agenda behind providing information!!!11!!1!!!

[/quote]

LOL that you think an appointed government official has placed your well being ahead of his financial interests. Especially one who pays all his taxes. Yeah thats the guy I want coordinating a brand new trillion dollar federal dept. BAAAAAAAH, BAAAAAAAH Obamalosireid sheep.

[quote]ajcook99 wrote:
Aragorn wrote:

I’m not talking about public works projects as a whole. Digitalization of records also has a lot to recommend itself. HOWEVER, this sort of overhaul to the healthcare system, and that is precisely what it is, is NOT SOMETHING YOU PIGGY BACK ON A BILL WITH NO DEBATE OVER ITS MERITS. [u]EVER.[/u] That’s why I say passing this portion of the bill without extended debate over whether it should even exist, or what specific form it should exist in, is an affront to our chosen system of government. It is offensive. That’s my primary point, and it makes me sick to my stomach to think of those retards in Congress trying to do something like that.

You want gov’t involved in healthcare, fine. Debate it publicly on the floor of Congress. Pass it the right way. I’ll still disagree, but at least democracy will be served, and that’s the whole point of our country. But don’t even think about slapping us collectively in the face by piggy backing this damn albatross on an already unrecoverably bloated piece of shit stimulus bill to try and get it into law without the People’s say so.

I agree that we would all be better served to have a Congressional requirement, and for that matter, state legislative requirement for one bill, one issue. At least every issue would directly go through the debate and voting process.

Wrapping items into bills is an act that both parties have been about equally guilty of in recent history. The downside is that you would create an incredible log jam of bills and futher gridlock. [/quote]

Yup I agree with you on all counts. The nature of the items that are gift-wrapped are different between parties, but it’s all the same. I think we’re pretty much agreeing now. Quite frankly, though, I’d rather have more gridlock than what we’re running through at this moment.

It seems to me every time there is a “clear and urgent need for immediate Congressional action” they fuck it up royally because they don’t THINK it through. The less they do the better off everyone else is, IMVHO.

[quote]PB-Crawl wrote:
why are you guys freaking out about this now? you should have been doing this a decade ago.
[/quote]
The AMA and FDA have been fucking up health care for more than a decade. More gov’t intervension is not the solution.

What has been done before?

You sure you don’t want to think about this? We at least have a option of health insurance companies. Once the fed gets involved, there is no escaping.

All of my questions or specific ones?

Mine is. So is my childeren’s and my wife’s.

Wrong. My wife and I do our own research and request or approve treatments we feel are appropriate. I can’t think of a single instance that this wasn’t the case.

I took your suggestion and really wished I hadn’t. What a bunch of shit.

“could be” and “pretty close” are not justification of a health Czar. Neither is the flu. Actually this may be a bit hasty on my part. One would have to weigh the lives lost from the things you point out, compared to some estimate of the lives lost do to increased bureaucracy and decreased efficiency.

This is something our gov’t would never do. Take the FDA for example. It kept Bayer from advertising the preventative effects of asprin on heart attacks for 8 years. How many lives were lost that could have been spared in 8 years? I don’t know, but probably more than would have died due to advertising this before the FDA was satified with the testing of a product millions of people had been taking for years.

There is no turning back from this.

[quote]ajcook99 wrote:
What a callous response. Spoken like someone who has never had the misfortune of having to deal with the actual financial and emotional burden of the health issues of a loved one. I can’t say I’m for government being the answer here, but that doesn’t excuse your response.[/quote]

Mom had cancer. Our insurance covered almost all of it. Got help from family and friends for the rest.

[quote]
As a matter of fact your response clearly shows a lack of knowledge of the health insurance system in the US. You tell him to “Get new insurance”…what good is that going to do him as any individually underwritten policy is going to preclude the current issue as a preexisiting condition. Sorry, kid, it’s not that simple as “Get new insurance” in the real world. [/quote]

I was speaking rhetorically. I don’t actually expect him to get new insurance. I was just saying the the insurance company is PAYING for shit. They can decide if something is covered or not. If they only promise to keep you alive as best they can, they are NOT responsible for making that life comfortable or even good.

This is a bad system, but it happens to be a hell of a lot better than back when NO ONE could afford medical care except the very wealthy.

I do apologize for being abrasive (not that it’s any excuse but this is the internet). However, I don’t think asking the government to force insurance companies to pay for such-and-such treatment is a good idea. Or even remotely close to an ok slightly maybe possibly moral idea.

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
snipeout wrote:

Some funny stuff

How in the hell did you turn this:

"(4) provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care;

Into this:

Take a look at #4. That doesn’t scare you at all? Another group of people(very much like those in insurance companies)deciding what kind of medical care is necessary.

lol. “provide information” = “decide what is necessary”??? lol.

Because anytime the government “guides” anything they fuck it up. Be smarter than Barney Frank tells you to be, or don’t and believe everything you are told and read, don’t question a thing, ever.

lol “provide information” = “decide what is necessary” = government guiding" lol

OMG, there’s a secret socialist agenda behind providing information!!!11!!1!!!

[/quote]

Unfortunately there are two premises at work here, both wrong: 1) doctors don’t have access to “information” (i.e., “evidence-based medicine”) and 2) a new governtment agency is necessary to do this, and can do this better.

Nothing can be further from the truth. Doctors have access to info through their professional societies, free access to the primary studies, etc., in ways not previously imaginable.

And then there are too many examples of how a government agency, like an insurance company arbiter, makes rules that are based loosely on misunderstood data and applied inappropriately.

Sorry, GL, this is just Daschle, an amateur, leaving a footprint after he has vacated the nomination. It is not justifiable, except as a tactic to deny, delay and diminish the delivery of medical care by the responsible providers.

If doctors have a fault it is not in the availability of information, it is in insight; the insight in the application of information to the individual case, and that is a commodity which the government can not provide, at any cost.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
PB-Crawl wrote:

“could be” and “pretty close” are not justification of a health Czar. Neither is the flu. Actually this may be a bit hasty on my part. One would have to weigh the lives lost from the things you point out, compared to some estimate of the lives lost do to increased bureaucracy and decreased efficiency.

This is something our gov’t would never do. Take the FDA for example. It kept Bayer from advertising the preventative effects of asprin on heart attacks for 8 years. How many lives were lost that could have been spared in 8 years? I don’t know, but probably more than would have died due to advertising this before the FDA was satified with the testing of a product millions of people had been taking for years.

There is no turning back from this.
[/quote]

-never said i wanted a health czar, it was a simple response to you saying What epidemics?. Neither is the flue? Wow, youre really as uniformed as you sound. do you realize what happens if say our flue vaccination manages to be ineffective? (and btw it gets weaker year after year, and more strains emerge). If we keep fucking up antibiotics like we are, yes things like VRE an MRSA will be huge.

-not much of a point with the bayer thing. Would you rather go back to a time when there were no pesky govnt regulations, back when there were no ingredient labels, and cocaine was in everything?

-i never said govn’t was perfect, its not, i would like to smaller governement in pretty much every aspect of the country, but when theres govn’t assisted programs everywhere in the world to point to that preform above ours by outrageous numbers, despite the fact that we pay more than everyone else, i find it hard to believe the market will solve this.
Look at the pure private health care market in Canada, its a pile of shit, it preforms worse than the evil socialized system. Which its not socialized btw, they simply pay the private insurance companies themselves for you.

-im glad the bill is being stripped down in the senate. They really need to do away with all these add ins and pork. Those should have to completely separate requests that the entire congress must approve. And congressmen should be payed by the hour as well.

-you can drop the end of the world babble. You sound like the hippies before WTO. Shit goes off the end, there will be a realignment, more conservative people will be voted in and it will be done away with. “Theres no going back”, hahahah what a chump.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

If doctors have a fault it is not in the availability of information, it is in insight; the insight in the application of information to the individual case, and that is a commodity which the government can not provide, at any cost.

[/quote]

This point needs to be quoted for emphasis. This is the nature of the problem. Doctors, along with medical researchers and straight biochemical researchers, of which I am one, have unparalleled access to incredible amounts of data both from clinical studies and raw basic research, in addition to an unbelievable amount of correlation and cross referencing between sources and databases.

In addition, they also have very detailed patient data–I would submit that the notion of “inaccurate patient data” as a cause for mishaps in medicine is negligible. The fact is they have excellent access to it. True, digitizing records could be very helpful, but the core problem is as the good Dr. wrote one of application and understanding, which ONLY the medical doctor is qualified for. The gov’t cannot perform that function at all, nor should they try to.

but that’s not what I’m outraged at. Well, I am, kinda, but the primary outrage for me is the fact that they’re trying to piggy back this instead of going through the full democratic process of discussion, debate, formulation, approval/rejection. This is WAAAAYY too important of an issue to just slide into a bill a beta version of gov’t involvment. Gov’t involvement is too problem riddled as is, we don’t need, of all things, a beta version that hasn’t been debugged or even planned out yet. That’s terrible governance.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

Mom had cancer. Our insurance covered almost all of it. Got help from family and friends for the rest.

I was speaking rhetorically. I don’t actually expect him to get new insurance. I was just saying the the insurance company is PAYING for shit. They can decide if something is covered or not. If they only promise to keep you alive as best they can, they are NOT responsible for making that life comfortable or even good.

This is a bad system, but it happens to be a hell of a lot better than back when NO ONE could afford medical care except the very wealthy.

I do apologize for being abrasive (not that it’s any excuse but this is the internet). However, I don’t think asking the government to force insurance companies to pay for such-and-such treatment is a good idea. Or even remotely close to an ok slightly maybe possibly moral idea.[/quote]

First off, sorry to hear about your mother, I hope all turned out well.

I think that if we examined things further, we would not disagree to much on the role of the insurance company. After all it is pretty cut and dry when it comes to law, any type of insurance is simply a matter of contract. I believe that many of the issues with our health insurance industry come down to how they operate, the fact that they are public companies, and the fact that the executives have absolutely no skin in the game.

In many instances, insurance companies (outside of life insurance) underwrite at a negative on a cash basis, meaining annually their claims exceed their premiums. The majority of their profits come from the garnered float on the invested premiums. The longer they can extend that float, the greater amount of the float.

Unlike with small(er) businesses, the executives of these companies do not have to personally guarantee the capital structure of the company. From a risk/reward perspective for them on their comp strutures, it is entirely skewed towards reward. So the inevitable internal policies are exactly what we see: deny and delay.

I don’t like a governmental fix for the industry more than anyone else. I would prefer a well regulated, clear set of guidelines, private solution. However, if the choice is between the industry as it exists with no change, or the change that is actually worded and proposed in the text of the bill, I choose the bill.

I simply do not trust the actions of corporate executives whose only clear motivation can be seen to be to increase corporate profits by growing revenue (higher premiums) and holding costs down (denying and delaying claims).

[quote]pushharder wrote:
dhickey wrote:
100meters wrote:
Yes, it reads scary, by design! Of course…it isn’t true, McCaughey just makes it up out of thin air. You could of course just read the Bill!

you really are simple aren’t you? Let take a look at this shall we.

SEC. 3001. OFFICE OF THE NATIONAL COORDINATOR FOR HEALTH INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY.

"(a) Establishment-- There is established within the Department of Health and Human Services an Office of the National Coordinator for Health Information Technology (referred to in this section as the 'Office'). The Office shall be headed by a National Coordinator who shall be appointed by the Secretary and shall report directly to the Secretary.

"(b) Purpose-- The National Coordinator shall perform the duties under subsection (c) in a manner consistent with the development of a nationwide health information technology infrastructure that allows for the electronic use and exchange of information and that--

Hmmm…let’s take a look at what this unelected official will be responsible for…

    "(1) ensures that each patient's health information is secure and protected, in accordance with applicable law;

Who makes the law? We know who should be making laws. Our elected officials. Unfortunately they have granted this power to unelected bureaucrats every chance they get. Not quite what the constitution had in mind.

    "(2) improves health care quality, reduces medical errors, reduces health disparities, and advances the delivery of patient-centered medical care;

The federal gov’t reducing errors? What does reducing health disparities mean? Advances the deliver how? What does patient-centered medical care mean?

    "(3) reduces health care costs resulting from inefficiency, medical errors, inappropriate care, duplicative care, and incomplete information;

An unelected bureaucrat with no guaranteed knowledge of healthcare, much less specific medical procedures, deciding what appropriate care is. I would prefer my doctor do this. I really don’t need the gov’ts help on this. Will we have a choice to opt out of this?

    "(4) provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care;

Again, I don’t need a bureaucrat in the operating room with me the doctors and nurses. How could this possibly end well?

    "(5) ensures the inclusion of meaningful public input in such development of such infrastructure;

Not sure what this means. My medical care is no ones business but my own. I don’t need any public input.

    "(6) improves the coordination of care and information among hospitals, laboratories, physician offices, and other entities through an effective infrastructure for the secure and authorized exchange of health care information;

The federal gov’t is going to do this? Please give me one example where the federal gov’t has improved coordination of anything.

    "(7) improves public health activities and facilitates the early identification and rapid response to public health threats and emergencies, including bioterror events and infectious disease outbreaks;

Not a big fan of FEMA, but I guess they’ve done such a bang up job, why not create another federal institution to give it a shot. BTW, local gov’t already handle these things. Usually by county in coordination with the regional hospitals. I am sure federal involvement will streamline this process.

    "(8) facilitates health and clinical research and health care quality;

regulation

    "(9) promotes prevention of chronic diseases;

Again, this is already being handled locally. Is this really an epidemic in this country?

    "(10) promotes a more effective marketplace, greater competition, greater systems analysis, increased consumer choice, and improved outcomes in health care services; and

This is just plain funny. A federal bureaucracy promoting a more effective marketplace, competition, increased choice, and improved service? That’s funny, I don’t who you are.

    "(11) improves efforts to reduce health disparities.

Here we go again with health disparities. What does this mean? I can eat cheese burgers and smoke cigarettes and the gov’t will ensure there is no disparity between my health and anyone else?s?

See, it isn’t the govt. that will help guide medical decisions, no… it’s “development of a nationwide health information technology infrastructure that allows for the electronic use and exchange of information”.

It is a bureaucracy like any other. FDA, USDA, SEC, FAA, etc. They will become legislator, police, judge and jury like the rest of them. What don’t you get?

Get it? having access to accurate patient information will allow doctors to make the appropriate medical decisions. Sound like a good idea? Of course!

and the fed will help them make the appropriate medical decisions after they all review the applicable information. yeah, that will speed things up. Again, I wasn’t aware of an epidemic in need of action.

But if you’re trying to dupe sheep like headhunter into not supporting good ideas, you have to lie to them!

Next phony outrage…

Unlike you, the rest of us live in the real world. We understand all to well what this means. What do you think their budget will be? Do you really think federal involvement can improve health care in any way? Who would you rather deal with in discussing a discrepancy, American Express or the IRS? If you have to send something very important, what service do you use, US mail or FedEx? Do we need to keep going?

Excellent post.

The Cliff Notes version of this bill would be “Hi, I hear you’re sick. Well, I’m with the government and I’m here to help you.”[/quote]

…providing that its worth the money to keep you alive. If you’re old and sick and the first treatment doesn’t work, its your patriotic duty to die.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
ajcook99 wrote:
What a callous response. Spoken like someone who has never had the misfortune of having to deal with the actual financial and emotional burden of the health issues of a loved one. I can’t say I’m for government being the answer here, but that doesn’t excuse your response.

Mom had cancer. Our insurance covered almost all of it. Got help from family and friends for the rest.

As a matter of fact your response clearly shows a lack of knowledge of the health insurance system in the US. You tell him to “Get new insurance”…what good is that going to do him as any individually underwritten policy is going to preclude the current issue as a preexisiting condition. Sorry, kid, it’s not that simple as “Get new insurance” in the real world.

I was speaking rhetorically. I don’t actually expect him to get new insurance. I was just saying the the insurance company is PAYING for shit. They can decide if something is covered or not. If they only promise to keep you alive as best they can, they are NOT responsible for making that life comfortable or even good.

This is a bad system, but it happens to be a hell of a lot better than back when NO ONE could afford medical care except the very wealthy.

Or how about “Get new insurance” by way of getting a new job, but make sure that it’s with a large enough company that the cost of the clearly serious issue can be spread out over a large enough risk pool. How is that not a form of endentured servitude to the insurance companies themselves?

lanchefan1,
Sorry to hear about the issue with your wife. I have seen people have better success in dealing with the insurance company by tracing back through their employer to the relationship manager in charge of the master account.

Depending on the size of the company you have your plan through, you might have success. I have always found success in dealing as directly with the folks who have actual dollars or income invested in the relationship continuing.

I do apologize for being abrasive (not that it’s any excuse but this is the internet). However, I don’t think asking the government to force insurance companies to pay for such-and-such treatment is a good idea. Or even remotely close to an ok slightly maybe possibly moral idea.[/quote]

I didn’t take it as abrasive, I was merely trying to stimulate “non-partisan” conversation on the topic by relating my own experience. I work for a smaller fire dept (only about 120 total employees). We don’t have alot of bargaining power with insurance. I did however work for a much larger corporation prior (50k+) and it wasn’t much better.