Have You Always Believed As You Do Now?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]forlife wrote:
You asked about the most important thing in my life, and I told you. The vast majority of moral systems agree that love is the most important thing in life, so you’re not just quibbling with me. [/quote]

We’ve already pointed out, together I might add, you and I, that love cannot be “the most important thing.” Love requires an object to be love. That object is by definition more important than the “love” which has that object in view.

That would be an obviously false claim. But you instead claimed something far worse: you said that “love” is the most important thing in your life.

Which is:

  1. a confusion on your part (see above) - which incidentally demonstrates that you haven’t really examined your life carefully. (And btw, this is why it’s important not to become submerged in one’s own subjectivities.)

The truth is, your “most important thing” is not revealed by what you claim on the internet to a stranger; it is revealed in your every, daily action. It’s a supremely important thing to consider carefully what, in fact, those actions add up to. Me too.

And 2. it’s dishonest: you ain’t no Mother Theresa.

62

[quote]forlife wrote:
You asked about the most important thing in my life, and I told you. The vast majority of moral systems agree that love is the most important thing in life, so you’re not just quibbling with me.

I never claimed to be a perfectly loving person. Nobody is perfect in aligning his life with his values.[/quote]

“love” is a mystical, illogical, unquantifiable value assignment. If you believe in it, you believe in a mystical, non-scientific concept. I see little distinction between believing in that and a higher power.

Worship and value are in truth synonyms. Worship literally means to assign worth to something. Worship is nothing more than a personal value assignment. Saying that you value love IS saying that you worship it. EVERYONE makes these value assignments so everyone practices some form of worship.

How is what you do all that different than what the religious do? The only difference I can see is that generally religions claim value assignment comes from a mythical third party deity. You claim value assignment comes from the mythical 1st person called a conscience. Neither is more logically reasonable. You and I have had this discussion before.

63

For your reading pleasure:

[quote]1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
[/quote]

Most other moral systems say the same.

As I said earlier, you’re entitled to believe whatever makes sense to you, including the belief that I don’t really value love. I have no desire to disprove you, feel free to believe whatever you want :slight_smile:

64

…forlife, why do you set yourself up for a flogging like this?

65

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
How is what you do all that different than what the religious do? The only difference I can see is that generally religions claim value assignment comes from a mythical third party deity. You claim value assignment comes from the mythical 1st person called a conscience. Neither is more logically reasonable. You and I have had this discussion before.[/quote]

Religious people and nonreligious people can have the same values, the difference is the source of those values. Some derive their morality from the belief in a supernatural being, and others derive their morality internally. It’s one thing to perform an act because you believe a god wants you to do so, and another thing to do the act for the sake of the act itself.

66

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…forlife, why do you set yourself up for a flogging like this?[/quote]

I was just answering his questions, I really don’t care what he actually believes.

67

[quote]forlife wrote:
For your reading pleasure:

[quote]1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
[/quote]

Most other moral systems say the same.

As I said earlier, you’re entitled to believe whatever makes sense to you, including the belief that I don’t really value love. I have no desire to disprove you, feel free to believe whatever you want :)[/quote]

Nice pivot there. I’d be glad to discuss these particular passages because they actually describe quite well what is meant by “love” - and that is very far from your rather confused understanding; and vaguely connecting what you so obviously don’t understand to various other “moral systems” seems weak in the extreme.

And, alas, it’s too bad you won’t actually engage with my actual post. I know, it’s scary to engage with real thinking.

Anyway, I hope it was edifying. I do sincerely hope that you examine your life a little more carefully. You do seem quite confused about some very important things. That much is clear.

68

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…forlife, why do you set yourself up for a flogging like this?[/quote]

I was just answering his questions, I really don’t care what he actually believes.[/quote]

LOL Is this^^ the deep and abiding love for humanity that you profess? LOL!!!

On ephrem - It’s hard for ephrem to see people actually engaging and thinking. He really can’t stand it himself. He’d rather repeat the same thing over and over again and retreat into his shell. I’m convinced that ephrem is rather like a clam.

69

It’s interesting to see how much negativity you’ve directed my way, vs. the demeanor I’ve displayed toward you. Seriously…go back and read our posts, from an objective point of view. For someone professing to be a Christian, you seem to harbor a lot of judgment, intolerance, and animosity toward others.

It’s all cool though. You’re welcome to believe whatever you want, as long as you don’t try to interfere with my own happiness.

70

[quote]forlife wrote:
It’s interesting to see how much negativity you’ve directed my way, vs. the demeanor I’ve displayed toward you. Seriously…go back and read our posts, from an objective point of view. For someone professing to be a Christian, you seem to harbor a lot of judgment, intolerance, and animosity toward others.

It’s all cool though. You’re welcome to believe whatever you want, as long as you don’t try to interfere with my own happiness.[/quote]

Okay. Just read it over. There’s no animosity at all, either way.

I have, however, displayed judgement of right and wrong; and a profound intolerance for confusion. Just like you’ve accused me. However, we’ve already gone over why being “non-judgemental” and “tolerant” is not only a will o wisp, but also not desirable. Right? Or weren’t you paying attention?

71

I haven’t accused you of confusion, only of intolerance for perspectives other than your own. I’ll ask again:

I fully respect your right to believe whatever you want. Why do you feel the need to attack my values and beliefs?

You may think intolerance is desirable, but I disagree. As long as people aren’t interfering with your own happiness, why can’t you tolerate them?

72

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…forlife, why do you set yourself up for a flogging like this?[/quote]

I was just answering his questions, I really don’t care what he actually believes.[/quote]

LOL Is this^^ the deep and abiding love for humanity that you profess? LOL!!!

On ephrem - It’s hard for forlife to see people actually engaging and thinking. He really can’t stand it himself. He’d rather repeat the same thing over and over again and retreat into his shell. I’m convinced that ephrem is rather like a clam.
[/quote]

Why don’t you just state what you’re trying to get at, instead of asking leading questions and re-interpreting what forlife says?

He says love is the most important thing in life. While love might need an object: others, abstract ideas, the self, it can still be an end in itself.

I can say, the most important thing in my life is love, as in were my life devoid of love, it would be meaningless. The particular object is not important, but we can assume that anything he does in fact love, means an awful lot to him, it is the act of love and loving that he values more highly, and being able to share that love, than any particular thing or individual that he might love.

73

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…forlife, why do you set yourself up for a flogging like this?[/quote]

I was just answering his questions, I really don’t care what he actually believes.[/quote]

…but you know how this pans out. You’ve been through with mick28 and others like him. Katz isn’t much different, so even if you don’t care about what he believes, the negativity and derision that emanates from his posts; it’s useless. So, does it have a purpose?

74

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

Why don’t you just state what you’re trying to get at, instead of asking leading questions and re-interpreting what forlife says?

He says love is the most important thing in life. While love might need an object: others, abstract ideas, the self, it can still be an end in itself.

I can say, the most important thing in my life is love, as in were my life devoid of love, it would be meaningless. The particular object is not important, but we can assume that anything he does in fact love, means an awful lot to him, it is the act of love and loving that he values more highly, and being able to share that love, than any particular thing or individual that he might love.[/quote]

…words of wisdom…

75

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…forlife, why do you set yourself up for a flogging like this?[/quote]

I was just answering his questions, I really don’t care what he actually believes.[/quote]

LOL Is this^^ the deep and abiding love for humanity that you profess? LOL!!!

On ephrem - It’s hard for forlife to see people actually engaging and thinking. He really can’t stand it himself. He’d rather repeat the same thing over and over again and retreat into his shell. I’m convinced that ephrem is rather like a clam.
[/quote]

Why don’t you just state what you’re trying to get at, instead of asking leading questions and re-interpreting what forlife says?

He says love is the most important thing in life. While love might need an object: others, abstract ideas, the self, it can still be an end in itself.

I can say, the most important thing in my life is love, as in were my life devoid of love, it would be meaningless. The particular object is not important, but we can assume that anything he does in fact love, means an awful lot to him, it is the act of love and loving that he values more highly, and being able to share that love, than any particular thing or individual that he might love.[/quote]

Love without an object is a completely empty abstraction. You seem to agree - then you say it can be an “end unto itself.” Which is it?

The answer is, that love requires an object and cannot be and “end unto itself.” (The only creation in the universe that is an end unto itself is a human being. A human being should never be considered as instrumental.)

If you don’t think that the particular object of that love matters, well, I guess I feel a little sorry for you.

And while the object of his love obviously means an “awful lot to him” - consider this: first we must recognize what that object is; and with many people it’s unconscious and unrecognized; second, we have to consider whether this “love” is a real and sacrificial giving of self that is required in the action of love. An alcoholic’s “love object” is whiskey; a narcissist loves his self; etc. Would you say that these are examples of love? et cetera…

76

[quote]forlife wrote:
For your reading pleasure:

[quote]1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
[/quote]

Most other moral systems say the same.

As I said earlier, you’re entitled to believe whatever makes sense to you, including the belief that I don’t really value love. I have no desire to disprove you, feel free to believe whatever you want :)[/quote]

What translation is this? I have never heard this passage with out the word “love” in it. This doesn’t even read the same.

77

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…but you know how this pans out. You’ve been through with mick28 and others like him. Katz isn’t much different, so even if you don’t care about what he believes, the negativity and derision that emanates from his posts; it’s useless. So, does it have a purpose?
[/quote]

If nothing else, it shows his true colors to other people following this thread. One thing I’ve learned is that you don’t really need to defend yourself in these kinds of discussions, particularly against people that blatantly twist and misinterpret your statements to meet an agenda. Most people are smart enough to catch those tactics.

And honestly, he’s not being that obnoxious…we’ve both seen a lot worse on these boards.

78

[quote]pat wrote:
What translation is this? I have never heard this passage with out the word “love” in it. This doesn’t even read the same.[/quote]

King James version, it’s the one I was raised with :slight_smile:

79

Just as an aside, anybody notice that 2 out of the 3 religious threads and the last two older ones were all started by atheists? I just find that interesting, I am not sure what it says, but I find their curiosity interesting.

80

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Question for believers, and for agnostics/atheists:

Have you always seen the universe as you do now, or have your beliefs changed over time?

I have a theory that there are a lot more believers → agnostics/atheists than there are agnostics/atheists → believers.

But maybe I’m overgeneralizing from my own experience. I was a devout Christian for 35 years before becoming an agnostic.[/quote]

I don’t see the world/ universe in any way like I used to, and yet it led me to the same place.[/quote]

This.

I have even changed how I see things in the same year drastically, but it just ends up making more sense.

I used to see God as something I understood, now I understand Him less. However, this has brought about a more of a yearning to understand what I don’t/can’t. Mysteries.