Great Man Theory

[quote]pushharder

This is simply not so. It was precisely the defeat of the Spanish Armada that caused Spain to eventually decline. It WAS truly world changing. It put Britain on the map, so to speak, as the emerging world power – power that was projected by her navy. The Royal Navy was one of the most significant entities of the last 500 years, unsurpassed in reach until the advent of the US military of the 20th century.

Also, Drake’s raids throughout the western hemisphere changed so much of how Spain, the number one world power at that time, did its business. He was feared up and down the Pacific, Atlantic and Caribbean coasts. This fear rippled all the way back to Iberia and commerce had to change as a result.

It could be argued that he single handedly effected the demise of the greatest empire of that time and ushered in the greatest one following that.

There’s more to it than that, of course, but I think he absolutely fits the Great Man mold. To a T.[/quote]

Ok push you win. But adverse conditions and a storm caused more damage than the fire ships or Drake. Then there’s the question of whether a successful invasion would have defeated Elizabeth’s forces and how the Spaniards would resupply with the British navy on their heels.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
One could speculate endlessly if one was interested in fruitless futility.
[/quote]

All is vanity, after all, is it not?[/quote]

Ecclesiastes. The Tanakh uses the term ‘futile’ from the Hebrew ‘hevel’ meaning something fleeting and is often used in conjunction with the phrase ‘pursuit of wind’ i.e. Something that cannot be explained in any rational way; like faith for instance.[/quote]

Yes, written by a man with several hundred wives and girlfriends.[/quote]

[quote]pushharder

This is simply not so. It was precisely the defeat of the Spanish Armada that caused Spain to eventually decline. It WAS truly world changing. It put Britain on the map, so to speak, as the emerging world power – power that was projected by her navy. The Royal Navy was one of the most significant entities of the last 500 years, unsurpassed in reach until the advent of the US military of the 20th century.

Also, Drake’s raids throughout the western hemisphere changed so much of how Spain, the number one world power at that time, did its business. He was feared up and down the Pacific, Atlantic and Caribbean coasts. This fear rippled all the way back to Iberia and commerce had to change as a result.

It could be argued that he single handedly effected the demise of the greatest empire of that time and ushered in the greatest one following that.

There’s more to it than that, of course, but I think he absolutely fits the Great Man mold. To a T.[/quote]

Ok push you win. But adverse conditions and a storm caused more damage than the fire ships or Drake. Then there’s the question of whether a successful invasion would have defeated Elizabeth’s forces and how the Spaniards would resupply with the British navy on their heels.
[/quote]

Like I said, there’s more to it than that.

There’s also more to Genghis Khan’s greatness than him being “a simple, humble man who ate simple meals in a simple fashion while providing decadent luxuries for those loyal to him.”

There’s more to Churchill than participating in four wars, giving great speeches and smoking cigars too.

By the way, it’s not about “winning,” my friend, it’s about discussion, debate and the exchange of ideas. If you need everyone to submit their entries so as to cooperatively bring you nothing but great satisfaction perhaps you should’ve submitted your pre-approved list of great men so as to keep us from erring by suggesting otherwise.[/quote

Winning was just an expression. I also agreed with most of what you said about Drake. Churchill was probably in the top three historians of the 20th century and one of the most prolific.

Dunkirk was an utter failure of course. Churchill’s strategic genius was exemplified in his Dardanelles plan to ensure Turkey did not enter the war and to bring back mobility which had been lost on the western front since the battle of the Marne. It had degenerated into a war of attrition.

Churchill was intimately involved in the development of the tank.

He set up special forces units that carried out successful attacks in Norway.

As you say there’s more to him than cigars.

I’ll leave you with an using anecdote from his bodyguard’s memoirs.
The Irish republican leader Michael Collins met with Churchill. Collins slammed a piece of paper on Churchill’s desk. It was a picture of Collins and read: wanted dead or alive. 50 pounds reward.

Churchill got up from his desk and went over to a drawer, removing a piece of paper. He showed it to Collins . It had a photo of Churchill and read : wanted dead or alive. 100 pounds reward. You should consider yourself lucky Mr Collins.

[quote]pusharder wrote

Yes, great men have often had the aid of God, nature and luck, no?

[/quote]
So you’re an Anglican now? Or just glad all those Catholics drown .

[quote]
Elizabeth’s forces were a relatively scrawny lot. [\quote]

Really? I wonder how they decisively beat the most powerful army in the world at Crecy and Agincourt
Her navy was a gnat on a bull’s ass at that time.

Although not the finest navy for another century it was certainly capable of seriously disrupting Spanish supply lines along with help from privateers and the Dutch .

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Dunkirk was an utter failure of course.

[/quote]

Depends on how you look at it. I always thought of it as one of the most miraculous retreats of all time, kinda like:

Washington’s withdrawal of troops from Long Island and later from Manhattan in 1776.

Withdrawal of US and South Korean forces at the Chosin Reservoir in 1950.
[/quote]

It was an utter failure twisted into a success by propaganda. The British expeditionary force was virtually annihilated and France was lost. And Chosin wasn’t a retreat. It was ‘an advance in a different direction’.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
This is probably a stretch at best at this point, but twenty years from now we might be putting Elon Musk on this list.[/quote]

What, did you watch 60 minutes on Sunday night? Or have you been an original fan of his since the paypal days?

Why not elect that Yamamoto guy from Canada who figured out how the high speed computers/servers are cheating the stock market, and then figured out how to beat them.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Partition had already began in 1905 with Bengal.[/quote]

It certainly hadn’t. Don’t know of any reputable historian who takes that position?[/quote]

The idea of Pakistan as a nation did not develop until the 1930’s. However Britain had partition plans dating back to the beginning of the 20th century. Jinnah’s party merely inflamed nationalist tensions and forced a recognised partition . Neither Jinnah or Ben-Gurion fit the criteria of great men. Read the Wikipedia article on the concept. I think some here are misunderstanding its meaning. [/quote]

You are wrong about Partition and the British having plans for it.

The Great Man Theory suggests that history can be explained by the impact of great men or heroes. Historically, it is undoubtable that Jinnah almost singlehandedly created Pakistan, it is also true that Ben-Gurion had a massive impact on creating Israel. Those two guys certainly changed the course of history.

One of the most expert historians on Partiton says of Jinnah “Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three” (Stanley Wolpert).

If that isn’t a ‘great man’ in a ‘great mans history’, then pretty much no one else is.

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Partition had already began in 1905 with Bengal.[/quote]

It certainly hadn’t. Don’t know of any reputable historian who takes that position?[/quote]

The idea of Pakistan as a nation did not develop until the 1930’s. However Britain had partition plans dating back to the beginning of the 20th century. Jinnah’s party merely inflamed nationalist tensions and forced a recognised partition . Neither Jinnah or Ben-Gurion fit the criteria of great men. Read the Wikipedia article on the concept. I think some here are misunderstanding its meaning. [/quote]

You are wrong about Partition and the British having plans for it.

The Great Man Theory suggests that history can be explained by the impact of great men or heroes. Historically, it is undoubtable that Jinnah almost singlehandedly created Pakistan, it is also true that Ben-Gurion had a massive impact on creating Israel. Those two guys certainly changed the course of history.

One of the most expert historians on Partiton says of Jinnah “Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three” (Stanley Wolpert).

If that isn’t a ‘great man’ in a ‘great mans history’, then pretty much no one else is.

[/quote]

After the uprising of 1857 Britain formulated numerous plans involving partition. There’s even a map of the Punjab proposed and drawn up in the late 19th century. I discount Ben-Gurion because so many others were involved.

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Partition had already began in 1905 with Bengal.[/quote]

It certainly hadn’t. Don’t know of any reputable historian who takes that position?[/quote]

The idea of Pakistan as a nation did not develop until the 1930’s. However Britain had partition plans dating back to the beginning of the 20th century. Jinnah’s party merely inflamed nationalist tensions and forced a recognised partition . Neither Jinnah or Ben-Gurion fit the criteria of great men. Read the Wikipedia article on the concept. I think some here are misunderstanding its meaning. [/quote]

You are wrong about Partition and the British having plans for it.

The Great Man Theory suggests that history can be explained by the impact of great men or heroes. Historically, it is undoubtable that Jinnah almost singlehandedly created Pakistan, it is also true that Ben-Gurion had a massive impact on creating Israel. Those two guys certainly changed the course of history.

One of the most expert historians on Partiton says of Jinnah “Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three” (Stanley Wolpert).

If that isn’t a ‘great man’ in a ‘great mans history’, then pretty much no one else is.

[/quote]

After the uprising of 1857 Britain formulated numerous plans involving partition. There’s even a map of the Punjab proposed and drawn up in the late 19th century. I discount Ben-Gurion because so many others were involved.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
SM (and Bert), I was assuming you were looking for great men in the 20th century. That’s why I quoted that part of your post.

Churchill fit the bill for the first half of the century; only one came to mind for the second. Only one.[/quote]

No way would Reagan count. Churchill was a first class historian publishing dozens of books, he fought in four wars then presided over the Second World War and he was a strategic thinker of the highest order. Great men are military leaders not politicians.[/quote]

You keep missing the point. I wasn’t comparing Churchill to Reagan.

I will say it again: no man in the second half of the 20th century effected as much positive change in a leadership position as RR. No one. If you disagree you’re welcome to slap up your Man of the Years 1951 - 2000.

To cite Gorbachev is ludicrous considering the fact that Gorbachev’s effective changes were a direct result of Reagan’s influence.[/quote]

Reagan’s influence regarding the fall of Soviet Communism is one of the most exaggerated, overstated things I’ve ever heard in my life.

Communism is a failed philosophy, one that was inevitably going to fail by virtue of its very nature. Reagan just happened to be the man in charge when that inevitability came to roost. Every President since WWII did their part to push Communism closer to the edge. Reagan does not deserve special mention, especially considering some of the actions undertaken during previous administrations.

You can’t argue communism’s inherently short shelf life on the one hand, and then give credit to Reagan for pushing over what you have previously argued in here does not need help in failing.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Washington’s withdrawal of troops from Long Island and later from Manhattan in 1776.
[/quote]
I’m not sure I’d call this a miraculous retreat. More like a colossal fuck up by the British.

“Retreat Hell! We’re just attacking in another direction.” (Attributed to Major General Oliver P. Smith, USMC, Korea, December 1950.)

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Partition had already began in 1905 with Bengal.[/quote]

It certainly hadn’t. Don’t know of any reputable historian who takes that position?[/quote]

The idea of Pakistan as a nation did not develop until the 1930’s. However Britain had partition plans dating back to the beginning of the 20th century. Jinnah’s party merely inflamed nationalist tensions and forced a recognised partition . Neither Jinnah or Ben-Gurion fit the criteria of great men. Read the Wikipedia article on the concept. I think some here are misunderstanding its meaning. [/quote]

You are wrong about Partition and the British having plans for it.

The Great Man Theory suggests that history can be explained by the impact of great men or heroes. Historically, it is undoubtable that Jinnah almost singlehandedly created Pakistan, it is also true that Ben-Gurion had a massive impact on creating Israel. Those two guys certainly changed the course of history.

One of the most expert historians on Partiton says of Jinnah “Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three” (Stanley Wolpert).

If that isn’t a ‘great man’ in a ‘great mans history’, then pretty much no one else is.

[/quote]

After the uprising of 1857 Britain formulated numerous plans involving partition. There’s even a map of the Punjab proposed and drawn up in the late 19th century. I discount Ben-Gurion because so many others were involved.
[/quote]

Your evidence is ahistorical basically.

If very loose ‘plans’ are the basis for your historical analysis, you can be sure that there will be a ‘plan’ for everything Churchill did and for anything that anyone in history did.

You may as well say Hitler and the Nazi regime were completely unexceptional and normal because killing Jews and disabled people, and waging wars on other countries, have strong historical precedents.

And you may as well say Churchill was unexceptional because he was simply fighting a defensive war which again has many historical precedents.

There is always a Canadian figuring out something brilliant, anywho I would say Patton he was a bad mofo, you could argue that with the equipment and numbers he had it was easier than previous wars, I really just like his no retreat or backing down from anything. Which I would say defined the American military and embodied their nations spirit.

I will also say that Obama from fucking up Binladen, will always be talked about plus he is the most charismatic president as of late. He is also seeking diplomatic reconciliation with America’s previous sworn enemies Many disagree with him because of the side of the spectrum he is on. I dislike Harper’s dictatorship up here but at least he isn’t a bitch and he’s not afraid to voice his opinion. He’s great for big business but horrid for the poor lol.
I think any strong leader or genius could be argued for.

For peaceful accomplishments I would nominate Gandhi and the Tibetan Dalai dudes. I’m a fan of diplomacy really, but when things go south your leader should be kicking in the door waving a 44.

Speak softly and utilize your big dick–Jlabs

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]squatbenchhench wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Partition had already began in 1905 with Bengal.[/quote]

It certainly hadn’t. Don’t know of any reputable historian who takes that position?[/quote]

The idea of Pakistan as a nation did not develop until the 1930’s. However Britain had partition plans dating back to the beginning of the 20th century. Jinnah’s party merely inflamed nationalist tensions and forced a recognised partition . Neither Jinnah or Ben-Gurion fit the criteria of great men. Read the Wikipedia article on the concept. I think some here are misunderstanding its meaning. [/quote]

You are wrong about Partition and the British having plans for it.

The Great Man Theory suggests that history can be explained by the impact of great men or heroes. Historically, it is undoubtable that Jinnah almost singlehandedly created Pakistan, it is also true that Ben-Gurion had a massive impact on creating Israel. Those two guys certainly changed the course of history.

One of the most expert historians on Partiton says of Jinnah “Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three” (Stanley Wolpert).

If that isn’t a ‘great man’ in a ‘great mans history’, then pretty much no one else is.

[/quote]

After the uprising of 1857 Britain formulated numerous plans involving partition. There’s even a map of the Punjab proposed and drawn up in the late 19th century. I discount Ben-Gurion because so many others were involved.
[/quote]

Your evidence is ahistorical basically.

If very loose ‘plans’ are the basis for your historical analysis, you can be sure that there will be a ‘plan’ for everything Churchill did and for anything that anyone in history did.

You may as well say Hitler and the Nazi regime were completely unexceptional and normal because killing Jews and disabled people, and waging wars on other countries, have strong historical precedents.

And you may as well say Churchill was unexceptional because he was simply fighting a defensive war which again has many historical precedents.

[/quote]

Whatever you say. Historical precedent disqualifies everyone…?