Gold Over $800 Per Ounce

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I am done. No one has addressed my argument in the least.

You go ahead and think money and gold are some magical concept that violates all laws of nature. You obviously refuse to even give thought to it. You are merely regurgitating talking points.

Have fun in your fantasy land.

I prefer the real world and it seems like every other nation that uses fiat money agrees with me.

I have.

Several times.

You just choose to ignore it.

No you have not. You have tried to redefine money into a magical thing that violates the laws of nature.

Abnsolutely not.

You have tried to redefine a social construct as a physical entity that is subject to entropy which is obviously nonsense.

To equal entropie to the prinitng of paper money is blatantly absurd, because here the social value goes down because the physical number of pieces of paper goes up.

Even the analogy is flawed.

Golds, and every precious metal, has the advantage of the lack of noticeable physical decay.

However I´d be perfectly with letting my wealth deteriorate at the rate of golds natural decay.

[/quote]

Money represents goods and services. Explain to me why it is immune to the laws of nature that govern these physical things that it represents.

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Please define deflation and why you think it is a bad thing.

Today your house is worth $ 200,000. Next year it is worth $ 150,000. Five years from now it is worth $ 100,000. You would be a fool to keep paying $ 200,000 mortgage for a $ 100,000 house.

People are doing that right now.

It is called “paying interest”.

It is the exact same thing.

[/quote]

Your comprehension is underwhelming.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Please define deflation and why you think it is a bad thing.

Today your house is worth $ 200,000. Next year it is worth $ 150,000. Five years from now it is worth $ 100,000. You would be a fool to keep paying $ 200,000 mortgage for a $ 100,000 house.

People are doing that right now.

It is called “paying interest”.

It is the exact same thing.

Your comprehension is underwhelming.[/quote]

You pay for te privilege of owning things sooner.

Either by paying back more money that is worth less and less, or by paying back the exact same amount or even less money that is worth more and more.

Where is the mistake?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Money represents goods and services. Explain to me why it is immune to the laws of nature that govern these physical things that it represents.[/quote]

How does a service deteriorate?

Plus, metals do deteriorate. Very, very slowly. They are in no way immune to the laws of nature.

Money as an abstract concept is. Using metals that deteriorate very slowly means bringing the physical reality as close to the abstract concept as possible.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Money represents goods and services. Explain to me why it is immune to the laws of nature that govern these physical things that it represents.[/quote]

How does value deteriorate? It is a subjective quality. You may change how you value certain objects but there are no laws that govern how they should be valued. It is completely individualistic. Value is not a physically quantifiable measurement therefore we cannot hold it to the same laws as physics. Money, like physical objects, is still valued subjectively.

Why, for instance, do ancient artifacts, though they may have suffered deterioration, hold such high value in regard to how we might value them when manufactured by modern means? By your theory they should be worth far less and the newer stuff should be worth far more. Your argument is untenable.

[quote]orion wrote:

You are right that todays political structures depend on fiat money.

The flexibility you mentioned though is the flexibility of a common thief.

Since there are laws against simply disowning people and political resistance to tax increases diluting their money is an attractive option.

I could handle my finances more flexible by stealing and yet this is universally seen as wrong.

How come this “moral” flexibility is a plus when it comes to governments and does it not set a dangerous precedent?[/quote]

That’s the whole reason for putting control of the interest rates in the hands of an independent central bank rather than in any of the political branches.

There remains the risk of the political branches simply printing more dollars, but most wouldn’t risk doing something so transparent for which they would be easily blamed.

[quote]orion wrote:

How does deflation increase the cost of a loss?

[/quote]

The money you lose today would be worth more tomorrow. So not only do you lose the money you’re risking, but the built-in gain of purchasing power from deflation.

It could also reverse the current understanding of the time value of money - in general, people value a dollar today higher than a dollar tomorrow due both to inflation and to the enjoyment of consumption.

Deflation would also increase the cost of consumption today - not a good thing for economic growth.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Exactly. The value of fiat money lies in the trust that people have wrt their government. But the limitless spending crowd abuses that trust by continually running up debts and printing currency. Those very things destroy the trust. So, any society that seriously adopts a fiat currency must dissolve into chaos and slaughter. The populace then demands an authoritarian government to resore order.

[/quote]

I think you made just a few unstated assumptions to jump from your premises to your conclusion…

FBI raids Liberty Dollar office-confiscates Ron Paul Dollars

Frontal Assault on Freedom: FBI Raids Liberty Dollar Posted by BJT on Nov 15, 2007 Read this email closely. I just got it this morning. Those of you who consider the gold standard a quaint anachronism, pay extra close attention. If Ron Paul supporters, gold standard advocates and the Liberty Dollar were nothing but harmless kooks, why would the FBI raid their offices when no crime was ever committed? This is a currency competing with the USD, yes, but they never, but never make the claim that it is legal tender or anything other than what it is: private currency. And private currencies are numerous in the USA.

No. This raid happened because the Liberty Dollar, the second most popular currency in the country, threatens to usurp the entrenched power of the Fed’s Almighty Dollar. People can see the buying power of the greenback eroding, and they will choose something else if it is available, and the Liberty Dollar is ready and waiting. And that’s why the government must resort to force in order to protect its stranglehold on the economy…

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1926165/posts

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
FBI raids Liberty Dollar office-confiscates Ron Paul Dollars

Frontal Assault on Freedom: FBI Raids Liberty Dollar Posted by BJT on Nov 15, 2007 Read this email closely. I just got it this morning. Those of you who consider the gold standard a quaint anachronism, pay extra close attention. If Ron Paul supporters, gold standard advocates and the Liberty Dollar were nothing but harmless kooks, why would the FBI raid their offices when no crime was ever committed? This is a currency competing with the USD, yes, but they never, but never make the claim that it is legal tender or anything other than what it is: private currency. And private currencies are numerous in the USA.

No. This raid happened because the Liberty Dollar, the second most popular currency in the country, threatens to usurp the entrenched power of the Fed’s Almighty Dollar. People can see the buying power of the greenback eroding, and they will choose something else if it is available, and the Liberty Dollar is ready and waiting. And that’s why the government must resort to force in order to protect its stranglehold on the economy…

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1926165/posts
[/quote]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-09-14-liberty-usat_x.htm

The thread following the free republic artcle is awesome. Some great points showing what a scam the Liberty Dollar is.

If what is claimed is true the LD is NOT backed with sufficient gold to meet all the fake currency they minted and someone astutely points out that this scammer accepts fiat money in exchange for his “gold backed” money. Gee, I wonder why.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The thread following the free republic artcle is awesome. Some great points showing what a scam the Liberty Dollar is.

If what is claimed is true the LD is NOT backed with sufficient gold to meet all the fake currency they minted and someone astutely points out that this scammer accepts fiat money in exchange for his “gold backed” money. Gee, I wonder why.
[/quote]
First of all they are made of silver and do not require gold backing. If the coins are made of silver their values is already held in the metal weight of the coin.

Your last statement doesn’t even make sense. If the gov’t makes only “legal tender” legal for exchange then you answered your own question. The government doesn’t want competition.

Now I should ask, if all exchanges are voluntary then why could a store owner not accept a silver dollar if he wanted to?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The thread following the free republic artcle is awesome. Some great points showing what a scam the Liberty Dollar is.

If what is claimed is true the LD is NOT backed with sufficient gold to meet all the fake currency they minted and someone astutely points out that this scammer accepts fiat money in exchange for his “gold backed” money. Gee, I wonder why.

First of all they are made of silver and do not require gold backing. If the coins are made of silver their values is already held in the metal weight of the coin.

Your last statement doesn’t even make sense. If the gov’t makes only “legal tender” legal for exchange then you answered your own question. The government doesn’t want competition.

Now I should ask, if all exchanges are voluntary then why could a store owner not accept a silver dollar if he wanted to?[/quote]

Except the silver isn’t worth the face value of the coin. He is tricking people into buying (for example) ~ 50 cents worth of silver for a dollar. He is also printing paper money he claims is backed by gold. He does not have enough gold to back it.

The man is a rip off artist.

He also simultaneously claims his money can be substituted for real currency while putting in a disclaimer that it can’t.

I hope you didn’t fall for this scam.

I have been googling this and cannot find a “real” news story verifying the raid.

Maybe he faked it and absconded to South America!

Value is set subjectively. Buyers know this – which is why they buy it. It is a voluntary exchange. There has been nothing said about people trying to spend this currency. The Franklin Mint does this kind of thing all the time.

Looks like von NotHaus has already filed a suit against the federal government for breaking anti-trust laws:

“Liberty Services owner Bernard von NotHaus filed suit in the District Court for the Southern District of Indiana against the U.S. Mint’s claims regarding the Liberty Dollar. Defendants include Henry M. Paulson, Secretary of the Treasury, Alberto R. Gonzales, Attorney General of the United States, and Edmond C. Moy, Director of the Mint. The suit seeks a declaratory judgment that circulating Liberty Dollars as a voluntary barter currency is not a federal crime and an injunction barring the Defendants from publicly or privately declaring the Liberty Dollar an illegal currency and to remove any such declarations from the U.S. Mint’s website.”

http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
orion wrote:

You are right that todays political structures depend on fiat money.

The flexibility you mentioned though is the flexibility of a common thief.

Since there are laws against simply disowning people and political resistance to tax increases diluting their money is an attractive option.

I could handle my finances more flexible by stealing and yet this is universally seen as wrong.

How come this “moral” flexibility is a plus when it comes to governments and does it not set a dangerous precedent?

That’s the whole reason for putting control of the interest rates in the hands of an independent central bank rather than in any of the political branches.

[/quote]

How do you fire a Federal Reserve govenor?

It seems to me that giving enormous power to someone who is immune to the wishes of voters in a Republic is a prologue to chaos.

What if the person(s) running the Fed want jobs at an international bank when their term is over? Will they do things that such a large bank might favor?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Value is set subjectively. Buyers know this – which is why they buy it. It is a voluntary exchange. There has been nothing said about people trying to spend this currency. The Franklin Mint does this kind of thing all the time.

Looks like von NotHaus has already filed a suit against the federal government for breaking anti-trust laws:

“Liberty Services owner Bernard von NotHaus filed suit in the District Court for the Southern District of Indiana against the U.S. Mint’s claims regarding the Liberty Dollar. Defendants include Henry M. Paulson, Secretary of the Treasury, Alberto R. Gonzales, Attorney General of the United States, and Edmond C. Moy, Director of the Mint. The suit seeks a declaratory judgment that circulating Liberty Dollars as a voluntary barter currency is not a federal crime and an injunction barring the Defendants from publicly or privately declaring the Liberty Dollar an illegal currency and to remove any such declarations from the U.S. Mint’s website.”

Liberty Dollar [/quote]

Of course his advertisements claim it can be exchanged dollar for dollar which would make it legal currency, unless he only means the exchange is one way and he will take a real US dollar for his fake one.

This is his place of business.

Ludwig Von Mises on the Gold Standard:

“Every nation, whether rich or poor, powerful or feeble, can at any hour once again adopt the gold standard.”

“The gold standard has one tremendous virtue: the quantity of the money supply, under the gold standard, is independent of the policies of governments and political parties. This is its advantage. It is a form of protection against spendthrift governments.”

“The superiority of the gold standard consists in the fact that the value of gold develops independent of political actions.”

“The gold standard alone makes the determination of money’s purchasing power independent of the ambitions and machinations of governments, of dictators, of political parties, and of pressure groups. The gold standard alone is what the nineteenth-century freedom-loving leaders (who championed representative government, civil liberties, and prosperity for all) called ‘sound money’.”

“Governments deliberately sabotaged it, and still go on sabotaging it.”

“Under the gold standard gold is money and money is gold. It is immaterial whether or not the laws assign legal tender quality only to gold coins minted by the government. What counts is that these coins really contain a fixed weight of gold and that every quantity of bullion can be transformed into coins. Under the gold standard the dollar and the pound sterling were merely names for a definite weight of gold, within very narrow margins precisely determined by the laws.”

“Men have chosen the precious metals gold and silver for the money service on account of their mineralogical, physical, and chemical features. The use of money in a market economy is a praxeologically necessary fact. That gold – and not something else – is used as money is merely a historical fact and as such cannot be conceived by catallactics.”

“The gold standard was the world standard of the age of capitalism, increasing welfare, liberty, and democracy, both political and economic. In the eyes of the free traders its main eminence was precisely the fact that it was an international standard as required by international trade and the transactions of the international money and capital market. It was the medium of exchange by means of which Western industrialism and Western capital had borne Western civilization into the remotest parts of the earth’s surface, everywhere destroying the fetters of age-old prejudices and superstitions, sowing the seeds of new life and new well-being, freeing minds and souls, and creating riches unheard of before. It accompanied the triumphal unprecedented progress of Western liberalism ready to unite all nations into a community of free nations peacefully cooperating with one another.”

“All those intent upon sabotaging the evolution toward welfare, peace, freedom, and democracy loathed the gold standard, and not only on account of its economic significance. In their eyes the gold standard was the labarum, the symbol, of all those doctrines and policies they wanted to destroy.”

“The return to gold does not depend on the fulfillment of some material condition. It is an ideological problem. It presupposes only one thing: the abandonment of the illusion that increasing the quantity of money creates prosperity.”

“The excellence of the gold standard is to be seen in the fact that it renders the determination of the monetary unit’s purchasing power independent of the policies of governments and political parties.”

“The gold standard did not collapse. Governments abolished it in order to pave the way for inflation. The whole grim apparatus of oppression and coercion – policemen, customs guards, penal courts, prisons, in some countries even executioners – had to be put into action in order to destroy the gold standard. Solemn pledges were broken, retroactive laws were promulgated, provisions of constitutions and bills of rights were openly defied. And hosts of servile writers praised what the governments had done and hailed the dawn of the fiat-money millennium.”

“The classical or orthodox gold standard alone is a truly effective check on the power of the government to inflate the currency. Without such a check all other constitutional safeguards can be rendered vain.”

“If we had gold coins in actual daily circulation everywhere in the world…the depreciation of gold would…not have taken place at all.”

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

This is his place of business.[/quote]

So what…gold is gold…silver is silver. How can it be fake? The pieces of paper are “receipts” for gold or silver. He never once called them “legal tender”.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

This is his place of business.

So what…gold is gold…silver is silver. How can it be fake? The pieces of paper are “receipts” for gold or silver. He never once called them “legal tender”.[/quote]

Because he didn’t have enough gold to back his paper while he claimed he did, because he stamped USA Dollar on his coins, because he claims his money can be exchanged dollar for dollar with legal tender…

Do you own any?