God or Gov't: Would You Rather...

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]streamline wrote:
Well we have them both now and things are not so great. There was a time when it was only God and things did not go so well ie the dark ages. So in name of the game government, they can be killed.[/quote]

Lifty, why do you bother with 2 accounts?

Just use one please. [/quote]

Hey, I only have one and have just started posting again after almost 2 years away from PWI forums.[/quote]

Yeah, and he came back on the same day lol.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Lifty, why do you bother with 2 accounts?

Just use one please. [/quote]

Hey, I only have one and have just started posting again after almost 2 years away from PWI forums.[/quote]

Yeah, and he came back on the same day lol. [/quote]

Nice try.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
All right. I’ll play along.

Let us first, as Socrates was wont to say, define our terms.

The choice is between being dependent upon a government, OR being dependent upon God.

Which means that the choice of the one must necessarily obviate the other: If you choose government, there can be no God in your life, and if you choose God, there can be no government. Conveniently enough, we have words for the concepts of “no god” and “no government”. They are, of course, Atheism on the one hand, and Anarchy on the other.

So these are the choices the OP has given us. Atheism or Anarchy.

But neither has to be so bad.

Let’s look at Anarchy first. We conjure up an unpleasant image of the Mad Anarchist, cloaked in dark trench coat, the fiendish grin on his crazed face obscured by the dark shadow cast by his wide-brimmed hat. He clutches an old-fashioned spherical cast iron gunpowder bomb with smouldering fuze, poised to toss it into a government office before scurrying away down a dark alley.

But wait. In a true anarchy, the “anarchist” would cease to exist. In the total absence of government, an anarchist would have nothing to oppose. There would be no officials to assassinate, no buildings to bomb, no alleys down which to scurry. No cities, for that matter: it takes government to create infrastructure, and without an entity with the power to command resources on a scale that is only possible when you can extort taxes from a large population, there would be no highways, no power grid, no water or sewage systems, no sanitation systems, no telecommunications systems. There would of course be no banking, because fiat currency requires the illusion of government backing.

An existence completely devoid of government would be nomadic, agrarian, or perhaps even hunter-gatherer tribal. You would be responsible for yourself and your family, answerable to no one but God…which is to say, to the laws of nature, because none of the laws of men would exist.

[/quote]

Trade builds infrastructures via the spontaneous order of voluntary interaction.

Infrastructure is not dependent on government. If that were the case we would not have the internet, for example. Similarly, roads came about based on paths of least resistance to commerce. Government did not build them.

The first cities did not come about because they were commanded from a lord. People voluntarily moved to certain geographic regions for trade and capital began to accrue there. Once they became large and wealthy they became targets for the warrior class which is where the first governments came from.

If it were not for the existence of the infrastructure in the first place governments would never have come about.

Rather than anarchy I prefer to think of it as a naturally ordered society dependent on peaceful and voluntary exchange. Only violence can disrupt it.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Lifty, why do you bother with 2 accounts?

Just use one please. [/quote]

Hey, I only have one and have just started posting again after almost 2 years away from PWI forums.[/quote]

Yeah, and he came back on the same day lol. [/quote]

Nice try.[/quote]

I do not hide. I stand up for my beliefs and support them!

Roads may exist in absence of government, but it is unlikely they will be paved.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Roads may exist in absence of government, but it is unlikely they will be paved.[/quote]

Think of a road not as a singular thing but rather a continuous entity existing in different states of production.

Indeed, even in a city that has roads they are not all created or maintained equally. I would also argue that governments have the tendency to over-produce roads where they are not needed or wanted and where they are they are poorly maintained because they are over supplied.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
It ignores the fundamental Truth that Man is depraved. There is no hope of this depravity in an intelligent species ever allowing “naturally ordered society dependent on peaceful and voluntary exchange.” Violence will always disrupt.
[/quote]

But I am not ignoring this fact. This is the one point I argue that makes government illogical. If “man is depraved”, as you put it, then what hope do we have that government can be our savior? If “man is depraved” why is giving him the privilege of being part of the government apparatus a good idea?

Furthermore, I never argued violence won’t always be a part of “human nature”. I only argue civilization depends upon peace and that to the greatest extent possible violence should be minimized.

I look for solutions that do that rather than try to overthrow government - which is itself a violent act.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I’d suggest (and you will certainly reject the suggestion) that you look to Christianity. Not the religion of Christianity but the fundamental core, the essence of it. The Answers are there. The prudent man will seek them out. The nihilist and the statist won’t.[/quote]

You mean stuff like minding our own business and keeping our hands to ourselves?

I agree with that message.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

You mean stuff like minding our own business and keeping our hands to ourselves?
[/quote]

No.[/quote]

But what else is necessary to reduce conflict? If people just did that religion and dogmatic thinking would be of little relevance.

[quote]Yogi wrote:
that has got to be the least fun “would you rather…” question ever asked[/quote]

My favorite answer

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

You mean stuff like minding our own business and keeping our hands to ourselves?
[/quote]

No.[/quote]

But what else is necessary to reduce conflict? If people just did that religion and dogmatic thinking would be of little relevance.[/quote]

Even though you are asserting that as a religious view with dogmatic thinking in the same way basically every religion claims exactly the same thing.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
In this scenario god has manifested itself and can provide material needs like food, shelter, protection?[/quote]

I was rather unclear in the original post (which is ok because people went in all sorts of directions, making for interesting reading).

In the scenario, God brought about all of creation and you are free to use it as necessary in terms of food, shelter, and protection. So God won’t play nanny government and simply hand out everything. You’ll need to do a little work.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Neither.[/quote]

lol, that isn’t a viable answer. But it is the obvious one.

Just play along dman it. [/quote]

Can I choose which god? Because if it were Dionysus or Aphrodite doing the providing, that might not be so bad.[/quote]

That makes things interesting. Choose your God but please explain your reasoning.

[quote]Severiano wrote:
If you chose God, you are no different than those who pick Sharia Law[/quote]

Are you suggesting that theocracy is the inevitable outcome of selecting God?