Get This Load of Crap

Off Topic
41

[quote]yorik wrote:
josh.shafer wrote:
yorik wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
yorik wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
OK, now that I’ve thrown this little bomb out there, you can all flame away and criticize me using the very same stuff that you were taught by AA itself.

No, you are entitled to your opinion.

But, do you have experience in the AA “cult”? or a personalized program at that?

I’ve seen guys 25 years sober go out and in a week end up in jail for killing someone.

I started out with an Al-Anon program somebody suggested for me about 15 years ago when my girlfriend was doing crack. I knew in my gut there was something odd with the program from the first meeting, so I started researching it and reading up on psychology, addiction and programs.

(BTW, it turns out all I needed to do was kick her out of the house for good. Problem solved. No more meetings.)

Lately I’ve been reading up on the psychology of success, which is not well studied. (If you’re successful you obviously don’t talk to psychologists, do you?) I think teaching addicts how to be successful, healthy people instead of dealing with their deficiencies is area that could have a lot of promise.

I think a guy who is 25 years sober should stop calling himself an alcoholic and start emphasizing his success in life. It’s an NLP thing.

I’ve lately decided to investigate some positive individual therapy myself which is all success oriented, not failure oriented.

Alcoholics have a compusion of the mind coupled with a physical “allergy” to alcohol. If someone who was 25 years sober chose to quit going to meetings because he was a “success”, there is a chance he would drink again, triggering the physical alergy. Meetings and helping other recovered drunks is what keeps alcoholics sober.

Bullshit. The only reason there is “a chance” is because AA has programmed him that way.

In fact, he’s now addicted to the meetings instead. Think about it; the AA member has no power, he HAS to go to the meetings. You say the meetings are not an addiction? That means you’re in denial, aren’t you? They say you can never leave AA without bad consequences? Sounds like a cult to me.

No amount of sobriety, or “success” (in your terribly faulted language) is every going to make an alcoholic able to successfully drink if he picks one up.

Hold on a second…What does success have to do with drinking? Not one damn thing. Success is about mastering your own destiny. Nobody ever said an alcoholic should drink again, and I sure don’t recommend it.

Your choice of words proves that you know nothing about the nature of addiction. This isn’t winners and losers, this is chemistry, psychology, spirituality, and cold hard facts.

Mastering your life is about winning big time. Being an alcoholic for the rest of your life is about being a loser for the rest of your life.

You just repeat what you’re told at AA meetings. Like a good boy.

Yes, I know about liver enzymes, tetrahydroisoquinaline (THIQ), and fatty acid deficiencies, all of which are the physical, chemical mechanisms which cause true physical alcoholism, which is actually relatively rare. All of which are manageable through physical treatment.

Why the hell you would “treat” a physical problem with the psychology of failure I still don’t understand. Mixing chemistry and psychology is like mixing beer and liquor. (Sorry, bad analogy.)

I take that back. For many people it works, so in a lot of ways it’s good. Especially when you’re just starting out.

But I stand by my statement that if you’ve been sober for 25 years, you’re no longer a “recovering alcoholic” and you need to stop being addicted to the negative stigma and negative words; you’re a damn strong successful person who has mastered his/her life and will continue to do so.

Rip that negative alcoholic label off your forehead and live your life as a positive masterful person. (Well, only if you ARE sober.)

Better yet, do what works FOR YOU. My only concern is that 12 Step programs are negatively oriented, and the power of positive psychology is so much more, well, powerful.

I just wanted to get people thinking and challenge the status quo. You are now free to rip me a new one.
[/quote]

Yorick. You have no idea what you are talking about. Alcoholism is not a negative thing for me. It’s a positive thing, and I live life happily through the steps, so if you are not one of us, please keep your OPINIONS to yourself and don’t tell us what we are about.

42

[quote]Dweezil wrote:
RE: AA, I find SOS and SMART to be infinitely superior to the AA system assuming you actually want to take responsibility for your actions. AA is surrender (I’m sure I’ll get flamed for that), and SOS/SMART is responsibility and progress.[/quote]

AA says YOU are the problem and YOU are responsible for your actions. you are wrong to your point that it’s not taking responsibility.

43

[quote]yorik wrote:

Mastering your life is about winning big time. Being an alcoholic for the rest of your life is about being a loser for the rest of your life.

[/quote]

You truly don’t understand the program then. You are way off. I’m glad you are a non-alky telling us what works best!

44

Yorick, I honestly hope you are able to get what you want out of life. Bless you.

45

Shut up and lift!

46

[quote]josh.shafer wrote:
Yorick, I honestly hope you are able to get what you want out of life. Bless you.[/quote]

Likewise.

47

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
AA says YOU are the problem and YOU are responsible for your actions. you are wrong to your point that it’s not taking responsibility.[/quote]

[quote]We admitted we were powerless over alcohol–that our lives had become unmanageable.

Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.[/quote]

While I’d never totally throw away the Alcoholics Anonymous system, or try and ignore the good it’s done for people, the base curriculum is not as good as it should be. To claim people are not partially ‘absolved’ in the AA system is a lie, and you know that.

George Vaillant’s study was a sign, I feel, that the twelve step system is extremely flawed, but the social support AA provides is beneficial.

48

[quote]Dweezil wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
AA says YOU are the problem and YOU are responsible for your actions. you are wrong to your point that it’s not taking responsibility.

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol–that our lives had become unmanageable.

Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

While I’d never totally throw away the Alcoholics Anonymous system, or try and ignore the good it’s done for people, the base curriculum is not as good as it should be. To claim people are not partially ‘absolved’ in the AA system is a lie, and you know that.

George Vaillant’s study was a sign, I feel, that the twelve step system is extremely flawed, but the social support AA provides is beneficial.[/quote]

Nobody cares about some “study” some guy did about AA. We alcoholics are doing our own studies and AA fucking works for those who work it-PERIOD. If SOS or SMART were such good programs, don’t you think their successes would at least cause an alcoholic like me to hear of them? I had no idea what you were talking about. The numbers speak for themselves

Bottom line is that when somebody gets open-minded, honest, and willing to work the steps of Alcholics Anonymous, it works. I know hundreds of these people and I’ve only been sober 3 years (today)!

Abandoning yourself to God, AS YOU UNDERSTAND HIM, is a different type of surrender than you’re thinking. It’s saying "hey, I surrender, alcohol, you wind. I can’t drink you anymore. Maybe my own self will gets me in trouble sometimes. Maybe I should do what helps others first before thinking of myself.

I’ll say it again- opinions of non-recovering alcoholics mean very little to me in this department. If you are in recovery, and you still have this much resentment against AA, maybe you need to take a better look at yourself.
The people who have bad things to say about AA are either ones who have resentments against certain people in the program or people who weren’t rigorously honest enough with themselves and others to recover.

Sorry about the emotion, but I owe everything I have to AA and I was going to retire from this debate, but I don’t want anybody to get the wrong message about it.

49

Congrats Josh.

That is a prety good synopsis of how a lot of people chicken out.

Something about “a searching and fearless moral inventory” drives people away.
It’s always kind of funny when the topic of resentments and wrong-doings comes up, and the person who claims to harbor no ill will towards any one or any thing gets all pissed off, and starts looking at smart, rr, or any softer easier way they can imagine.

There must be something to that.

Also, for Dweezil-

In the prologue “How it works” the steps are predicated upon the belief that " no human power could relieve us of our alcoholism, and that god could and would if he were sought".

There is no mention, and there is not supposed to be- of being absolved of any wrong doing. That is up to a persons own religious or spiritual beliefs. If you have ever actualy read anything about the developement or practice of the steps, you would know why, too.

Try not to read something that isn’t there. It isn’t there for some very good reasons.

You may also notice in your own post of the steps, steps eight and nine. In them, it is suggested that a person make every effort to make direct amends to those that they have harmed, and step ten, where you continue to do this as part of an onging inventory.

See? Not much there about being absolved of anything. There is a good bit there about doing your part to make amends though.

50

[quote]josh.shafer wrote:
Nobody cares about some “study” some guy did about AA.[/quote]

“Some guy” is on the board of trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous and is a professor at Harvard Medical School.

Almost anyone who is completely dedicated to abstinence will stay off of any drug, so long as they have support when the cravings and any associated depression is at its worst.

I don’t have an issue with AA, I just think that the twelve step program is inherently flawed in that it requires the relinquishment of free will and acceptance that you are powerless. Which, if we’re going to be completely honest, obviously partially implies a certain irresponsibility in your actions, and can eventually manifest itself as depression and lead to a ‘hopeless’ (no control over your actions) relapse in which the alcoholic binge drinks (which is pretty much the theory behind the old studies showing people on a 12 step program binge drinking something like seven times more often than a control group without treatment).

No, I don’t. Just because you’re an alcoholic doesn’t mean you’re educated on every organization that focuses on substance abuse. Unless… Do alcoholics have some kind of private news channel that I’m unaware of?

What numbers?

Congratulations on your anniversary. The fact that you, and others, have successfully participated in Alcoholics Anonymous does not exclude the possibility that there is a better way for a program like that to work.

It’s a door left open. People, as I’m sure you’re aware, will rationalize almost anything when they’re addicts (and even when they’re not, much of the time) to do something they want to do. If an alcoholic is craving, saying that they have no control very easily turns into “I may as well go ahead and do it then.”

Opinions of most people mean very little to me in every department, so atleast we have some similarities.

I have no resentment against AA. I think it’s inherently flawed. It doesn’t make it bad. It’s an important organization that helps a lot of people. It makes it not as good as it ought to be.

Joseph Heller would be proud. If you criticize any part of AA, you dislike certain people within AA or you failed at the AA program. If you support AA, then you’re not allowed to criticize any part of it because you know it’s perfect. You’ve trapped me in a steel box, but I’m confident if you give me a few years I can find a way out of this circular logic.

51

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
There is no mention, and there is not supposed to be- of being absolved of any wrong doing. That is up to a persons own religious or spiritual beliefs. If you have ever actualy read anything about the developement or practice of the steps, you would know why, too.

Try not to read something that isn’t there. It isn’t there for some very good reasons.[/quote]

Just because it isn’t plainly written in the text doesn’t mean that being powerless over your actions can’t be easily interpreted as being somewhat (or completely, for people who are looking for a reason to drink) irresponsible for your actions.

While I am personally aware that responsibility is talked about constantly in AA meetings, it doesn’t change the twelve steps (which is the “core” of AA)- and it doesn’t change the problems in the twelve steps.

52

Fair enough, Dweezil. You do what you gotta do to stay sober. Good luck to you.

53

[quote]Dweezil wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
There is no mention, and there is not supposed to be- of being absolved of any wrong doing. That is up to a persons own religious or spiritual beliefs. If you have ever actualy read anything about the developement or practice of the steps, you would know why, too.

Try not to read something that isn’t there. It isn’t there for some very good reasons.

Just because it isn’t plainly written in the text doesn’t mean that being powerless over your actions can’t be easily interpreted as being somewhat (or completely, for people who are looking for a reason to drink) irresponsible for your actions.

While I am personally aware that responsibility is talked about constantly in AA meetings, it doesn’t change the twelve steps (which is the “core” of AA)- and it doesn’t change the problems in the twelve steps.[/quote]

You are funny. It says powerless over alcohol.

You must see all kinds of things that aren’t written, and hear all kinds of things that are not said.

Keep it simple man.
It “looks” like you are loking for an easy out. You aren’t going to find it.

54

The 12 Steps work for the people who work it. 5x5 works for people who lift it. Subway diets work for people who lost weight that way.

The 12 Steps have saved many people’s lives, even if sub-optimal. Good for them.

There’s no reason to discuss it anymore.

You’ll change the mind of an program member as easily as changing an ultraconservative into a gay rights activist.

There are reasons the 12 Steps are not optimal, and there are other alternatives some of us have found. We’ve offered that alternate view to the readers, and it’s just a matter of letting that information germinate where it needs to. Or die off as it needs to.

As for the OP, take the kids, pack up and leave her. It’s really that simple. (Maybe harder to actually perform, but simple in concept.)

55

[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Hey man:

I’m a recovering Alcoholic. Until your wife stops and finds a program like AA there is little hope to getting that old person back.

Over time the disease progresses and never gets better.

Until you can tell her “AA or the Highway”, there is nothing YOU can do to change the situation. She must change as well as you.

PM me if you have any more questions.[/quote]

Ditto that. There’s gotta be more people than you who know her problem. Intervention time is a possibility.

If she won’t admit her problem, then it’s time to get sneaky. I don’t care how f’d Michigan divorce laws are, I don’t see how she could get custody of those kids if her behaviour were properly documented. :wink:

56

P.S. I’m not saying AA is the only way, though it works for many. However, after intervention, she MUST jump-start her recovery with a treatment program of 2-4 weeks.

I’ll be sober 5 years this month. I did AA at first, but found my best recovery in the first year of sobriety via personal counseling AFTER a concentrated dose of recovery in a treatment center.

Regards,
Scott

57

Thanks for the congrats, SkyzykS.

Congrats to you simon!

FWIW, a dozen interventions didn’t make me stop. The person him/herself has to have something drastic enough to happen to constitute some kind of bottom. Thank God I found my bottom at 25. I have the rest of my life to live sober, if I chose to take action and work for my sobriety.

To the OP, you are just prolonging the agony by staying around. You leaving might help her reach her bottom.

Good wishes to all involved in this conversation. God (of your understanding) bless.

58

Alcohol is one messed up drug.

59

[quote]josh.shafer wrote:
Thanks for the congrats, SkyzykS.

Congrats to you simon!

To the OP, you are just prolonging the agony by staying around. You leaving might help her reach her bottom.

Good wishes to all involved in this conversation. God (of your understanding) bless.[/quote]

Thanks, Josh and the best to you.

Good point on the leaving part. OP: Right now you yourself are the safety net preventing this DB from hitting her bottom. You are enabling her to keep on truckin’ the way she has the last x-teen years.

Alcoholics abslutely count on a lack of confrontation from the people they abuse — manipulation is one of their major traits. The DB is relying on your love for your children to keep you right where you’re at.

It’s going to take something drastic to get her to snap out of it.

60

[quote]Petedacook wrote:
Alcohol is one messed up drug. [/quote]

But it’s LEGAL…so it’s good.