Georgia and Russia Going to War?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
222

[quote]lixy wrote:

Russians are supporting a separatist movement. I can only encourage that.[/quote] At least you’ve dropped the “I’m a pacifist” stuff. [quote]Whether they’ll invade Ossetia as soon as Georgia backs down is an unknown and I propose we wait for that to start condemning them.[/quote] Wait? Russia’s actions are already condemnable. How much misery have they caused now? What are their troops still doing? Where the hell is your “pacifism” and “humanism?”

[quote]It wasn’t the case of innocent “ethnic brethren” getting surprised by mean old Georgians - it was a case of Russia creating a trap, and Georgia bumbling into it stupidly.

This makes no sense. Russia was happy with the status quo and had every reason to be.[/quote]

What?! It does make sense, and it’s clearly the case here. Russia did everything it could to set itself up for involvement in this conflict. How can anyone say otherwise? And, happy with the status quo?! I don’t even think the Russians would claim they’d been happy with how things were.

223

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Vegita wrote:
If Russian Peacekeepers were in S Ossetia and Georgia KNEW that along with the fact that like it or not, the people of S Ossetia were provided the opportunity to become Russian Citizens, many of which did. The President of Georgia is in all reality one dumb SOB.

You cannot blame anything on russia here, they have every right and in fact should put as much pressure and influence on whoever they can USA does it in every instance, and so does almost every individual. It is human nature to want to have things your way.

Unfortunately for the people of Georgia and S Ossetia, the georgian President appears to not value human life and shelled non military targets in S Ossetia.

I can’t imagine what he thought the outcome was going to be from that, but it is pretty much universally frowned upon and I’m actually surprised that people are even questioning Russia on thier response.

If Quebec Shelled Niagrara Falls on the canadian side and a bunch of americans died, You bet your ass we the Mighty US would retaliate with amazing use of force. There wouldn’t be a canadian base that didn’t get creamed with missles and bombs.

V

You do realize that South Ossetia has been committing acts of violence against Georgia, don’t you? It has been an endless cycle of violence.

You do realize that Russia prepositioned troops and initiated computer attacks 3 weeks before they invaded don’t you?

Russia provoked this and now they are going to swallow parts of Georgia. Pure imperialism.

So an ally repositioning thier troops and a hacker attack, which I doubt can br proven was the government of russias doing. That is what you think just cause for bombing civillians is?

Wow, I see the Neo Cons have indeed succeeded in brainwashing regular old conservatives into war loving zombies. Do you even think for yourself anymore Zap? I used to agree with you on a lot of issues, but you are talking like a politician.

Avoiding the crux of the matter and giving little tidbits that don’t make much difference to bolster your position, that your ally was in the right. Zap, we are not the US Government, it is OK to disagree with the government and still be a conservative patriot.

Actually it may be required. Georgias actions and our response to them are simply wrong. There really is no debating it. If the acts you described indeed require the other side to escalate, then it could have been an initial interaction of a S Ossetian not waving to a georgian that started this whole thing.

Escilation of violence is rarley ever a good thing to do and it is quite insane to do it if you escalate against someone who can kill you in the blink of an eye. If Fedor stole my lunch money, I would hardly call it a good plan to punch him in the face over it. I would think the excpected outcome would be me getting my arm ripped off.

This brings us to the bigger picture. Who in our government told this loser Georgian president that we would back him up? This smells like a set up and he took a chance that killing a bunch of people so that Russia would attack him and be drawn into a bigger war with his future NATO allies would get him in NATO.

At least thats what I believe he was led to believe. In other words, there had to be some future positive outcome he envisioned. And seeing as we have a big influence in Georgia, I find it hard to believe we weren’t the one giving him the green light.

There is an obvious propoganda machine running in the west over this. CNN showed footage of a town in S Ossetia which was bombed out, the devastation was massive, people were seen crying in the streets but there was no sound. They claimed this was a georgian town and that this was what the russians did.

Yet on russian TV who have 6 news crews in S Ossetia and georgia, they go through the same town and see the same people crying in the street and they call it some town in S Ossetia and the people are wailing in the street and cursing the President of Georgia.

They also have a camera crew in a town in georgia, the one CNN said they were in. There is hardly a stone overturned and no one is in the streets bloody and crying. The BBC and Sky News also had the same footage as CNN.

Look, this whole thread is about nationalism, yet this whole time, all you Neo-Cons are really doing is being “Good Germans” or in our case, “Good Yankees”. The media is now controlled by or at least very supportive of the government.

They days of reporters keeping politicians honest is over, you have to get your info from someplace else, i.e. the net, and broaden your perspective of the events of the world. I’m sure you will now claim you already do this, but newsmax isn’t exactly an alternative media source.

V

What the hell are you smoking? I can barely read that.

The Russians provoked this and responded with overwhelming force.
[/quote}
Proof? Source? You also failed to address the Georgians Overwhelming use of force for a computer hacking attack, by responding with rockets into soft targets.
[quote}
The Russians are occupying significant parts of Georgia in spite of their agreement to pull back.
[/quote]
Again, where is your proof or at least a source? Also last time I checked, we are occupying Iraq, and they didn’t even provoke us, they were guilty of having a ding dong for a dictator and having imaginary WMD’s.

Again, you saying it or fox news saying it does not mean it’s true.

You are correct here, it is unreal. It’s unreal that you can be so biased in a simple matter. I mean not that it’s a simple matter but obviously you are siding with georgia bacause you defend thier attacking of CIVILIANS. Whats next? Gas some russins? Round em up into detention centers and get some Truth out of em the old fasioned way?

A good german listens to exactly what his government and sate run or sponsored media tells him. He also is SO patriotic that he agrees with anything they do wheather good nor bad. He does this because life could become uncomfortable if he starts disagreeing and thinking on his own. People could look at him funny or even ask him questions. He may have to explain himself and in extreme cases, he could be called a traitor and locked up or killed for not being a part of the team. A Patriot and a T-Man never compromise thier morals. Attacking CIVILLIANS no matter what justification is not right and should be condemned at the least and answered in many cases. Wake up dude, you’re acting delusional.

V

224

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Vegita wrote:
If Russian Peacekeepers were in S Ossetia and Georgia KNEW that along with the fact that like it or not, the people of S Ossetia were provided the opportunity to become Russian Citizens, many of which did. The President of Georgia is in all reality one dumb SOB.

You cannot blame anything on russia here, they have every right and in fact should put as much pressure and influence on whoever they can USA does it in every instance, and so does almost every individual. It is human nature to want to have things your way.

Unfortunately for the people of Georgia and S Ossetia, the georgian President appears to not value human life and shelled non military targets in S Ossetia.

I can’t imagine what he thought the outcome was going to be from that, but it is pretty much universally frowned upon and I’m actually surprised that people are even questioning Russia on thier response.

If Quebec Shelled Niagrara Falls on the canadian side and a bunch of americans died, You bet your ass we the Mighty US would retaliate with amazing use of force. There wouldn’t be a canadian base that didn’t get creamed with missles and bombs.

V

You do realize that South Ossetia has been committing acts of violence against Georgia, don’t you? It has been an endless cycle of violence.

You do realize that Russia prepositioned troops and initiated computer attacks 3 weeks before they invaded don’t you?

Russia provoked this and now they are going to swallow parts of Georgia. Pure imperialism.

So an ally repositioning thier troops and a hacker attack, which I doubt can br proven was the government of russias doing. That is what you think just cause for bombing civillians is?

Wow, I see the Neo Cons have indeed succeeded in brainwashing regular old conservatives into war loving zombies. Do you even think for yourself anymore Zap? I used to agree with you on a lot of issues, but you are talking like a politician.

Avoiding the crux of the matter and giving little tidbits that don’t make much difference to bolster your position, that your ally was in the right. Zap, we are not the US Government, it is OK to disagree with the government and still be a conservative patriot.

Actually it may be required. Georgias actions and our response to them are simply wrong. There really is no debating it. If the acts you described indeed require the other side to escalate, then it could have been an initial interaction of a S Ossetian not waving to a georgian that started this whole thing.

Escilation of violence is rarley ever a good thing to do and it is quite insane to do it if you escalate against someone who can kill you in the blink of an eye. If Fedor stole my lunch money, I would hardly call it a good plan to punch him in the face over it. I would think the excpected outcome would be me getting my arm ripped off.

This brings us to the bigger picture. Who in our government told this loser Georgian president that we would back him up? This smells like a set up and he took a chance that killing a bunch of people so that Russia would attack him and be drawn into a bigger war with his future NATO allies would get him in NATO.

At least thats what I believe he was led to believe. In other words, there had to be some future positive outcome he envisioned. And seeing as we have a big influence in Georgia, I find it hard to believe we weren’t the one giving him the green light.

There is an obvious propoganda machine running in the west over this. CNN showed footage of a town in S Ossetia which was bombed out, the devastation was massive, people were seen crying in the streets but there was no sound. They claimed this was a georgian town and that this was what the russians did.

Yet on russian TV who have 6 news crews in S Ossetia and georgia, they go through the same town and see the same people crying in the street and they call it some town in S Ossetia and the people are wailing in the street and cursing the President of Georgia.

They also have a camera crew in a town in georgia, the one CNN said they were in. There is hardly a stone overturned and no one is in the streets bloody and crying. The BBC and Sky News also had the same footage as CNN.

Look, this whole thread is about nationalism, yet this whole time, all you Neo-Cons are really doing is being “Good Germans” or in our case, “Good Yankees”. The media is now controlled by or at least very supportive of the government.

They days of reporters keeping politicians honest is over, you have to get your info from someplace else, i.e. the net, and broaden your perspective of the events of the world. I’m sure you will now claim you already do this, but newsmax isn’t exactly an alternative media source.

V

What the hell are you smoking? I can barely read that.

The Russians provoked this and responded with overwhelming force.
[/quote}
Proof? Source? You also failed to address the Georgians Overwhelming use of force for a computer hacking attack, by responding with rockets into soft targets.
[quote}
The Russians are occupying significant parts of Georgia in spite of their agreement to pull back.

Again, where is your proof or at least a source? Also last time I checked, we are occupying Iraq, and they didn’t even provoke us, they were guilty of having a ding dong for a dictator and having imaginary WMD’s.

The Russians and the paramilitary forces are looting Georgia.

Again, you saying it or fox news saying it does not mean it’s true.

I am the “good German” for condemning their actions? Unreal!

You are correct here, it is unreal. It’s unreal that you can be so biased in a simple matter. I mean not that it’s a simple matter but obviously you are siding with georgia bacause you defend thier attacking of CIVILIANS. Whats next? Gas some russins? Round em up into detention centers and get some Truth out of em the old fasioned way?

They are behaving exactly like Nazi Germany if you want to use that analogy. You are the good German or the Neville Chamberlain my friend.

A good german listens to exactly what his government and sate run or sponsored media tells him. He also is SO patriotic that he agrees with anything they do wheather good nor bad. He does this because life could become uncomfortable if he starts disagreeing and thinking on his own. People could look at him funny or even ask him questions. He may have to explain himself and in extreme cases, he could be called a traitor and locked up or killed for not being a part of the team. A Patriot and a T-Man never compromise thier morals. Attacking CIVILLIANS no matter what justification is not right and should be condemned at the least and answered in many cases. Wake up dude, you’re acting delusional.

V
[/quote]

Georgians look at the remnants of an RBK-250 cluster bomb dropped by Russian aircraft on the village of Ruisi, near South Ossetia, Tuesday, Aug. 12, 2008. Human Rights Watch has identified the weapon as a RBK-250 cluster bomb.

225

Looks like a densley populated Village? I don’t have time right now to get pictures of the devastation in S Ossetia. I will though. Also I don’t remember saying russians didn’t respond, they did. But they attacked to the best of thier ability military targets.

V

226

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Looks like a densley populated Village? I don’t have time right now to get pictures of the devastation in S Ossetia. I will though. Also I don’t remember saying russians didn’t respond, they did. But they attacked to the best of thier ability military targets.

V[/quote]

With cluster bombing? In villages? I don’t want us jumping into the fight, by any means. However, let’s not pretend Russia went in and got out, all the while fighting in a manner to minimize the loss of civilian lives. They’re practically escorting and guarding militias responsible for looting and burning Georgian villages. This isn’t a Fox news conspiracy.

And yes, it’s clear Russia set themselves up to be involved in Georgia.

227

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Vegita wrote:
If Russian Peacekeepers were in S Ossetia and Georgia KNEW that along with the fact that like it or not, the people of S Ossetia were provided the opportunity to become Russian Citizens, many of which did. The President of Georgia is in all reality one dumb SOB.

You cannot blame anything on russia here, they have every right and in fact should put as much pressure and influence on whoever they can USA does it in every instance, and so does almost every individual. It is human nature to want to have things your way.

Unfortunately for the people of Georgia and S Ossetia, the georgian President appears to not value human life and shelled non military targets in S Ossetia.

I can’t imagine what he thought the outcome was going to be from that, but it is pretty much universally frowned upon and I’m actually surprised that people are even questioning Russia on thier response.

If Quebec Shelled Niagrara Falls on the canadian side and a bunch of americans died, You bet your ass we the Mighty US would retaliate with amazing use of force. There wouldn’t be a canadian base that didn’t get creamed with missles and bombs.

V

You do realize that South Ossetia has been committing acts of violence against Georgia, don’t you? It has been an endless cycle of violence.

You do realize that Russia prepositioned troops and initiated computer attacks 3 weeks before they invaded don’t you?

Russia provoked this and now they are going to swallow parts of Georgia. Pure imperialism.

So an ally repositioning thier troops and a hacker attack, which I doubt can br proven was the government of russias doing. That is what you think just cause for bombing civillians is?

Wow, I see the Neo Cons have indeed succeeded in brainwashing regular old conservatives into war loving zombies. Do you even think for yourself anymore Zap? I used to agree with you on a lot of issues, but you are talking like a politician.

Avoiding the crux of the matter and giving little tidbits that don’t make much difference to bolster your position, that your ally was in the right. Zap, we are not the US Government, it is OK to disagree with the government and still be a conservative patriot.

Actually it may be required. Georgias actions and our response to them are simply wrong. There really is no debating it. If the acts you described indeed require the other side to escalate, then it could have been an initial interaction of a S Ossetian not waving to a georgian that started this whole thing.

Escilation of violence is rarley ever a good thing to do and it is quite insane to do it if you escalate against someone who can kill you in the blink of an eye. If Fedor stole my lunch money, I would hardly call it a good plan to punch him in the face over it. I would think the excpected outcome would be me getting my arm ripped off.

This brings us to the bigger picture. Who in our government told this loser Georgian president that we would back him up? This smells like a set up and he took a chance that killing a bunch of people so that Russia would attack him and be drawn into a bigger war with his future NATO allies would get him in NATO.

At least thats what I believe he was led to believe. In other words, there had to be some future positive outcome he envisioned. And seeing as we have a big influence in Georgia, I find it hard to believe we weren’t the one giving him the green light.

There is an obvious propoganda machine running in the west over this. CNN showed footage of a town in S Ossetia which was bombed out, the devastation was massive, people were seen crying in the streets but there was no sound. They claimed this was a georgian town and that this was what the russians did.

Yet on russian TV who have 6 news crews in S Ossetia and georgia, they go through the same town and see the same people crying in the street and they call it some town in S Ossetia and the people are wailing in the street and cursing the President of Georgia.

They also have a camera crew in a town in georgia, the one CNN said they were in. There is hardly a stone overturned and no one is in the streets bloody and crying. The BBC and Sky News also had the same footage as CNN.

Look, this whole thread is about nationalism, yet this whole time, all you Neo-Cons are really doing is being “Good Germans” or in our case, “Good Yankees”. The media is now controlled by or at least very supportive of the government.

They days of reporters keeping politicians honest is over, you have to get your info from someplace else, i.e. the net, and broaden your perspective of the events of the world. I’m sure you will now claim you already do this, but newsmax isn’t exactly an alternative media source.

V

What the hell are you smoking? I can barely read that.

The Russians provoked this and responded with overwhelming force.
[/quote}
Proof? Source? You also failed to address the Georgians Overwhelming use of force for a computer hacking attack, by responding with rockets into soft targets.
[quote}
The Russians are occupying significant parts of Georgia in spite of their agreement to pull back.

Again, where is your proof or at least a source? Also last time I checked, we are occupying Iraq, and they didn’t even provoke us, they were guilty of having a ding dong for a dictator and having imaginary WMD’s.

The Russians and the paramilitary forces are looting Georgia.

Again, you saying it or fox news saying it does not mean it’s true.

I am the “good German” for condemning their actions? Unreal!

You are correct here, it is unreal. It’s unreal that you can be so biased in a simple matter. I mean not that it’s a simple matter but obviously you are siding with georgia bacause you defend thier attacking of CIVILIANS. Whats next? Gas some russins? Round em up into detention centers and get some Truth out of em the old fasioned way?

They are behaving exactly like Nazi Germany if you want to use that analogy. You are the good German or the Neville Chamberlain my friend.

A good german listens to exactly what his government and sate run or sponsored media tells him. He also is SO patriotic that he agrees with anything they do wheather good nor bad. He does this because life could become uncomfortable if he starts disagreeing and thinking on his own. People could look at him funny or even ask him questions. He may have to explain himself and in extreme cases, he could be called a traitor and locked up or killed for not being a part of the team. A Patriot and a T-Man never compromise thier morals. Attacking CIVILLIANS no matter what justification is not right and should be condemned at the least and answered in many cases. Wake up dude, you’re acting delusional.

V
[/quote]

You are way out there. I am not going to bother responding to this because you clearly don’t have any idea what is going on.

228

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Vegita wrote:
If Russian Peacekeepers were in S Ossetia and Georgia KNEW that along with the fact that like it or not, the people of S Ossetia were provided the opportunity to become Russian Citizens, many of which did. The President of Georgia is in all reality one dumb SOB.

You cannot blame anything on russia here, they have every right and in fact should put as much pressure and influence on whoever they can USA does it in every instance, and so does almost every individual. It is human nature to want to have things your way.

Unfortunately for the people of Georgia and S Ossetia, the georgian President appears to not value human life and shelled non military targets in S Ossetia.

I can’t imagine what he thought the outcome was going to be from that, but it is pretty much universally frowned upon and I’m actually surprised that people are even questioning Russia on thier response.

If Quebec Shelled Niagrara Falls on the canadian side and a bunch of americans died, You bet your ass we the Mighty US would retaliate with amazing use of force. There wouldn’t be a canadian base that didn’t get creamed with missles and bombs.

V

You do realize that South Ossetia has been committing acts of violence against Georgia, don’t you? It has been an endless cycle of violence.

You do realize that Russia prepositioned troops and initiated computer attacks 3 weeks before they invaded don’t you?

Russia provoked this and now they are going to swallow parts of Georgia. Pure imperialism.

So an ally repositioning thier troops and a hacker attack, which I doubt can br proven was the government of russias doing. That is what you think just cause for bombing civillians is?

Wow, I see the Neo Cons have indeed succeeded in brainwashing regular old conservatives into war loving zombies. Do you even think for yourself anymore Zap? I used to agree with you on a lot of issues, but you are talking like a politician.

Avoiding the crux of the matter and giving little tidbits that don’t make much difference to bolster your position, that your ally was in the right. Zap, we are not the US Government, it is OK to disagree with the government and still be a conservative patriot.

Actually it may be required. Georgias actions and our response to them are simply wrong. There really is no debating it. If the acts you described indeed require the other side to escalate, then it could have been an initial interaction of a S Ossetian not waving to a georgian that started this whole thing.

Escilation of violence is rarley ever a good thing to do and it is quite insane to do it if you escalate against someone who can kill you in the blink of an eye. If Fedor stole my lunch money, I would hardly call it a good plan to punch him in the face over it. I would think the excpected outcome would be me getting my arm ripped off.

This brings us to the bigger picture. Who in our government told this loser Georgian president that we would back him up? This smells like a set up and he took a chance that killing a bunch of people so that Russia would attack him and be drawn into a bigger war with his future NATO allies would get him in NATO.

At least thats what I believe he was led to believe. In other words, there had to be some future positive outcome he envisioned. And seeing as we have a big influence in Georgia, I find it hard to believe we weren’t the one giving him the green light.

There is an obvious propoganda machine running in the west over this. CNN showed footage of a town in S Ossetia which was bombed out, the devastation was massive, people were seen crying in the streets but there was no sound. They claimed this was a georgian town and that this was what the russians did.

Yet on russian TV who have 6 news crews in S Ossetia and georgia, they go through the same town and see the same people crying in the street and they call it some town in S Ossetia and the people are wailing in the street and cursing the President of Georgia.

They also have a camera crew in a town in georgia, the one CNN said they were in. There is hardly a stone overturned and no one is in the streets bloody and crying. The BBC and Sky News also had the same footage as CNN.

Look, this whole thread is about nationalism, yet this whole time, all you Neo-Cons are really doing is being “Good Germans” or in our case, “Good Yankees”. The media is now controlled by or at least very supportive of the government.

They days of reporters keeping politicians honest is over, you have to get your info from someplace else, i.e. the net, and broaden your perspective of the events of the world. I’m sure you will now claim you already do this, but newsmax isn’t exactly an alternative media source.

V

What the hell are you smoking? I can barely read that.

The Russians provoked this and responded with overwhelming force.
[/quote}
Proof? Source? You also failed to address the Georgians Overwhelming use of force for a computer hacking attack, by responding with rockets into soft targets.
[quote}
The Russians are occupying significant parts of Georgia in spite of their agreement to pull back.

Again, where is your proof or at least a source? Also last time I checked, we are occupying Iraq, and they didn’t even provoke us, they were guilty of having a ding dong for a dictator and having imaginary WMD’s.

The Russians and the paramilitary forces are looting Georgia.

Again, you saying it or fox news saying it does not mean it’s true.

I am the “good German” for condemning their actions? Unreal!

You are correct here, it is unreal. It’s unreal that you can be so biased in a simple matter. I mean not that it’s a simple matter but obviously you are siding with georgia bacause you defend thier attacking of CIVILIANS. Whats next? Gas some russins? Round em up into detention centers and get some Truth out of em the old fasioned way?

They are behaving exactly like Nazi Germany if you want to use that analogy. You are the good German or the Neville Chamberlain my friend.

A good german listens to exactly what his government and sate run or sponsored media tells him. He also is SO patriotic that he agrees with anything they do wheather good nor bad. He does this because life could become uncomfortable if he starts disagreeing and thinking on his own. People could look at him funny or even ask him questions. He may have to explain himself and in extreme cases, he could be called a traitor and locked up or killed for not being a part of the team. A Patriot and a T-Man never compromise thier morals. Attacking CIVILLIANS no matter what justification is not right and should be condemned at the least and answered in many cases. Wake up dude, you’re acting delusional.

V

You are way out there. I am not going to bother responding to this because you clearly don’t have any idea what is going on.[/quote]

Ok Suit yourself. It saddens me however that when 1500 civillians die from a surprise attack, it is considered in USA to be ok. It truly is hard to believe that one who thinks this is not a good thing is now considered “way out there”. Sad.

V

229

What airpower are we talking about here? Airpower has been around for only 90 or so years, and the precision of munitions has increased exponentially. The “civilians” in the south Lebanon already sympathize with Hizballah. They ARE Hizballah. They have a hard-on for killing Jews because of the anit-semitism contained in Islam itself. Like I said, if Hizballah wanted to minimize civilian casualties, they had ample time to move their women and children out before Israel came in. They WANTED women and children dying so that they could show casualties to a salivating media. Many of the photographers were themselves Arab or Muslim, including the Reuters guy who got caught doctoring the smoke coming from a bombed building in Beirut. The only other solution I saw to the situation would be for Israel to occupy south Lebanon indefinitely. The Shia in the south are the same people that were raising hell for us in Lebanon way back in the 80s, except that they all had children and now there are a lot more of them. They outbred the Christians and ran them out or killed them. But you paleo-cons have precious little understanding of that.

See if you can find the terms “jihad” or “shari’ah” or “dhimma” on HRW’s “issues” page. I sure couldn’t:
http://www.hrw.org/advocacy/index.htm

It doesn’t seem to be on HRW’s radar, therefore I don’t see what credibility I, as an American, should attach to that organization.

Oh, but I do. I’ve heard Pat Buchanan say the same thing lixy says all the time here: the terrorism would go away if we just stopped interfering in the Middle East. I see Steve Sailer posting articles all the time about the Israel lobby and Israel but nothing about jihad. Pat Buchanan has echoed those sentiments:
http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:f2lbb9SyQ6EJ:www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_01_16/buchanan.html+“pat+buchanan”+%2Barabs&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Here’s another good take:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=A5E92EF2-103D-4C77-A046-E3A0874A384B

Just for those unaware, “neo-con” essentially means “Jew” in paleo-con parlance, and jihad is on the paleo-con radar no where near as often as Israel, despite the extreme disparity in numbers of Jews and Muslims.

230

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Looks like a densley populated Village? I don’t have time right now to get pictures of the devastation in S Ossetia. I will though. Also I don’t remember saying russians didn’t respond, they did. But they attacked to the best of thier ability military targets.

V

With cluster bombing? In villages? I don’t want us jumping into the fight, by any means. However, let’s not pretend Russia went in and got out, all the while fighting in a manner to minimize the loss of civilian lives. They’re practically escorting and guarding militias responsible for looting and burning Georgian villages. This isn’t a Fox news conspiracy.

And yes, it’s clear Russia set themselves up to be involved in Georgia.[/quote]

Both points are probably true. I don’t think anyone is cheerleading for Russia’s attack or counterattack. Responsible people are simply saying:

  1. There are two sides to this, and the Georgians are far from angels.
  2. It’s not America’s business.
  3. Including Georgia in NATO is the height of folly.
231

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Again, Hezbollah was the enemy, not the state of Lebanon. And I would think any reading of history, or even common sense, would make it clear that using airpower against guerrillas is going to solve nothing and just drive more civilians to sympathize with them. I thought you were something of a fan of 4GW theory?

What airpower are we talking about here? Airpower has been around for only 90 or so years, and the precision of munitions has increased exponentially. The “civilians” in the south Lebanon already sympathize with Hizballah. They ARE Hizballah. They have a hard-on for killing Jews because of the anit-semitism contained in Islam itself. Like I said, if Hizballah wanted to minimize civilian casualties, they had ample time to move their women and children out before Israel came in. They WANTED women and children dying so that they could show casualties to a salivating media. Many of the photographers were themselves Arab or Muslim, including the Reuters guy who got caught doctoring the smoke coming from a bombed building in Beirut. The only other solution I saw to the situation would be for Israel to occupy south Lebanon indefinitely. The Shia in the south are the same people that were raising hell for us in Lebanon way back in the 80s, except that they all had children and now there are a lot more of them. They outbred the Christians and ran them out or killed them. But you paleo-cons have precious little understanding of that.
[/quote]

Again, to you Muslim = evil. I have some serious questions about Islam, but your logic leads to horrendous conclusions. A civilian sympathizer is fair game? That’s the same logic Muslim terrorists operate under.

What? “Terrorism” is right there on the page. Are you arguing in bad faith or just being obtuse?

[quote]
Huh? Arab-lust? William Lind, one of the most prominent paleo-cons around, agrees with your “clash of civilizations” view. And, from what I’ve seen, a plurality of paleocons probably fall into that camp as well. You don’t seem to know what you’re talking about.

Just for those unaware, “neo-con” essentially means “Jew” in paleo-con parlance, and jihad is on the paleo-con radar no where near as often as Israel, despite the extreme disparity in numbers of Jews and Muslims. [/quote]

That’s a huge over-simplification, and I suspect you know it. Paleocons are not anti-semites, though you can find a fringe crowd in any party. Russell Kirk, the father of modern conservatism, said shortly before he died that some neo-cons “forget that America’s capital is not in Tel Aviv.” That pretty much sums it up.

In fact, I’d say the issue is not that paleo-cons are obsessed with Jews, but that the two main parties are (to the tune of $5 billion a year in aid, untold liberties taken, and arguably a role in the wars we fight). Asking that we simply treat Israel as we would any other nation is hardly obsessive.

232

[quote]lixy wrote:

We have FightingIrish writing: “We cannot let them be threatened by a just-now reawakening Russian bear.”

The image reeks of the idea of “reconstitution of the Soviet Union”.[/quote]

Well, as a man with “two master’s degrees!!”, you should realize you would probably need to take that up with Irish - but to my point, I don’t think Putin plans on remaking the Soviet Union in the same way, but he does want to throw his weight around and draw some new lines for a new Russian empire.

[quote]The only good “influence” is American influence.

The only good “influence” is American influence.

The only good “influence” is American influence. [/quote]

Of course, no one suggested that, but most of us agree that the promotion of liberal democratic ideals is far better than the promotion of autocratic and fascist ideals.

Well, most of us - you don’t. You don’t even pretend to support such concepts anymore and rarely miss a chance to side with some version of totalitarianism.

[quote]He’s just comparing Russian interventionism with that of the US. Implying that Russia is more justified in responding to Georgia than the US bombing a European country.

Nowhere did he speak of “world’s ills”.[/quote]

And continuing to parrot out the mindless “blowback” that Buchanan and Co. keep working. WWII was the fault of the British, not a megalomaniacal fascist. Russian aggression in Georgia is the fault of US foreign policy, not Russia’s (telegraphed) ambitions to augment its power and influence.

Always, always, always - go far enough to the Right, and you touch elbows with the Left, as some say, and we see that right here, with nearly every international conflagration being blamed as a reaction to something the US has done.

It’s dull, it’s tired, and it’s intellectually sloppy - and deserves all the scorn we can heap on it.

Hold both parties constant in their endeavors to “restore former glory”, as would be only fair - who is promoting a better “restoration”?

Non-relativists can figure this out quickly. You may struggle for a while.

That is because you are a brainless ideologue. Not all separatist movements are of equal worth, but that of course, would be an inconvenient detail on your way to validating your diseased ideology.

Oh, and as Sloth noted - good to see all your pretensions of “pacifism” have been abandoned. We didn’t believe them anyway.

Horseshit. If Russia was content with the status quo, they wouldn’t have been ready to roll tanks and cut Georgia in half in 24 hours. Russia was prepared to move the status quo as soon as the opportunity presented itself - and so, they did.

Having been humiliated more than any other poster on PWI, I suppose you are sort of an authority on insults.

233

You’ve got “serious questions.” Thank you.

[quote]What? “Terrorism” is right there on the page. Are you arguing in bad faith or just being obtuse?
[/quote]
Were you able to get the link to work? How about the link for “religious freedom”? I sure wasn’t.

Again, thank you.

234

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Again, Hezbollah was the enemy, not the state of Lebanon. And I would think any reading of history, or even common sense, would make it clear that using airpower against guerrillas is going to solve nothing and just drive more civilians to sympathize with them. I thought you were something of a fan of 4GW theory?

What airpower are we talking about here? Airpower has been around for only 90 or so years, and the precision of munitions has increased exponentially. The “civilians” in the south Lebanon already sympathize with Hizballah. They ARE Hizballah. They have a hard-on for killing Jews because of the anit-semitism contained in Islam itself. Like I said, if Hizballah wanted to minimize civilian casualties, they had ample time to move their women and children out before Israel came in. They WANTED women and children dying so that they could show casualties to a salivating media. Many of the photographers were themselves Arab or Muslim, including the Reuters guy who got caught doctoring the smoke coming from a bombed building in Beirut. The only other solution I saw to the situation would be for Israel to occupy south Lebanon indefinitely. The Shia in the south are the same people that were raising hell for us in Lebanon way back in the 80s, except that they all had children and now there are a lot more of them. They outbred the Christians and ran them out or killed them. But you paleo-cons have precious little understanding of that.

Again, to you Muslim = evil. I have some serious questions about Islam, but your logic leads to horrendous conclusions. A civilian sympathizer is fair game? That’s the same logic Muslim terrorists operate under.[/quote]

Forget it. You’re arguing with someone that lacks any understanding of the complex and fragile tissue that makes up the “Lebanese people”.

My first degree cousins are half-Lebanese and were in Beirut in the summer of 2006. They don’t speak a word of Arabic and view all sort of religion as fairy tale. Yet, they’d sooner side with Hezballah over Israel. Anytime.

Here’s what an Islamo-marxist publication had to say:

“More striking, however, is the level of support for Hizbullah’s resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hizbullah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.”

235

[quote]lixy wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Again, Hezbollah was the enemy, not the state of Lebanon. And I would think any reading of history, or even common sense, would make it clear that using airpower against guerrillas is going to solve nothing and just drive more civilians to sympathize with them. I thought you were something of a fan of 4GW theory?

What airpower are we talking about here? Airpower has been around for only 90 or so years, and the precision of munitions has increased exponentially. The “civilians” in the south Lebanon already sympathize with Hizballah. They ARE Hizballah. They have a hard-on for killing Jews because of the anit-semitism contained in Islam itself. Like I said, if Hizballah wanted to minimize civilian casualties, they had ample time to move their women and children out before Israel came in. They WANTED women and children dying so that they could show casualties to a salivating media. Many of the photographers were themselves Arab or Muslim, including the Reuters guy who got caught doctoring the smoke coming from a bombed building in Beirut. The only other solution I saw to the situation would be for Israel to occupy south Lebanon indefinitely. The Shia in the south are the same people that were raising hell for us in Lebanon way back in the 80s, except that they all had children and now there are a lot more of them. They outbred the Christians and ran them out or killed them. But you paleo-cons have precious little understanding of that.

Again, to you Muslim = evil. I have some serious questions about Islam, but your logic leads to horrendous conclusions. A civilian sympathizer is fair game? That’s the same logic Muslim terrorists operate under.

Forget it. You’re arguing with someone that lacks any understanding of the complex and fragile tissue that makes up the “Lebanese people”.

My first degree cousins are half-Lebanese and were in Beirut in the summer of 2006. They don’t speak a word of Arabic and view all sort of religion as fairy tale. Yet, they’d sooner side with Hezballah over Israel. Anytime.

Here’s what an Islamo-marxist publication had to say:

“More striking, however, is the level of support for Hizbullah’s resistance from non-Shiite communities. Eighty percent of Christians polled supported Hizbullah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis.”[/quote]

Lol. Like I said, it’s always interesting to see which bait you’ll take. You like getting bogged down in the weeds of regional politics, but when it comes to discussing the elephant in the room that drives the likes of “The Party of God” (Islam), you couldn’t possibly do that. I’m sure the “Party of God” wants no part in jihad or the other Jew paranoia in the Qur’an, right? It’s just another “reaction” to Israeli aggression. Lol.

236

Ooops. Forgot the link to the aforementioned Islamo-marxist publication.

237

[quote]lixy wrote:
Ooops. Forgot the link to the aforementioned Islamo-marxist publication.

Israeli strikes may boost Hizbullah base - CSMonitor.com [/quote]

What is this showing us? That some Christian reporter bought the taqiyya hook, line, and sinker? Tell us, lixy, does the “Party of God” have anything to do with Islam, or is it just the result of a regional issue?

238

[i]
So why did Russia and Georgia end up going to war?

The immediate causes of the fighting centre on the events of 7 August. After days of heavy exchanges of fire with South Ossetian separatist fighters, and several fruitless attempts to arrange peace talks, the Georgian side had called a unilateral ceasefire.
Russian tanks in South Ossetia
Russia sent its troops into Georgia to ‘support Russian peacekeepers’

“We do not want to return fire,” said President Mikhail Saakashvili in an early evening address on national television. “Please do not test the Georgian state’s patience�?� Let’s give peace and dialogue a chance.”

But five and a half hours later, Georgia’s patience snapped.

The defence ministry in Tbilisi announced that it had sent troops into South Ossetia “to restore constitutional order in the entire region”.

Fierce fighting erupted around the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali, and Georgian war planes were reported to be in action bombing the town and surrounding areas.

The Georgians said they had been forced to retaliate after coming under continuing and sustained attack from the South Ossetian side.

Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze, speaking on the morning of 8 August, said there had also been reports of an incursion of “so-called volunteer fighters” from North Ossetia coming through the Roki tunnel, which links South Ossetia to Russia.

In a news conference six days later, the prime minister amplified this, referring to “a massive column of 150 units” crossing through the Roki tunnel during the night. It was this, he said, that had triggered the decision to send in the troops.

So far there have been no independent reports about this alleged incursion, although there were reports of Russian military exercises in the area around the Roki tunnel in the days leading up to the fighting. It is just one of many questions about this war which have yet to be answered.

Within hours Russia had launched its own “peace enforcement” operation in support, it said, of Russian peacekeepers and civilians in the region. [/i]

The provocation is obvious. What were the Russian peacekeepers doing in the area of the fighting? They certainly were not keeping the peace! They were positioning for invasion.

239

And just to make sure people don’t misinterpret the BBC’s article and buy into Zap’s blinders, I’ll paste the end of it.

[i]"But what is clear is the failure of both diplomacy and common sense on all sides in the months leading up to fighting in South Ossetia.

This summer’s violence followed months of well-documented rising tensions between Georgia and Russia.

Moscow was furious at the recognition of Kosovo in February and the promise from Nato in March that Georgia would one day become a member. The Russians hit back by upping their support for the two breakaway regions.

Russian paratroopers were sent to reinforce the peacekeepers in Abkhazia. A unit of Russian railway troops arrived to carry out repairs in the region. Throughout the spring and early summer the two sides played a seemingly endless game of provocation and retaliation.

Sporadic violence often breaks out in the summer time in Georgia’s conflict zones. It is the result, local people say, of a combination of hot weather, frayed nerves and quite simply too many guns facing each other over fragile ceasefire lines.

It is a tragedy for the people of the Caucasus that this summer - despite international attempts at mediation and calls for calm - neither side seemed ready or willing to pull back from the brink." [/i]

240

Yes, Moscow was mad about Kosovo so they decided to invade Georgia.

241

When is the world going to realize that all the land is accounted for and war is just a huge waste of life? Old people talk while young people die. We need to all work on becoming independent of one another and just trying live a fruitful life, rather then killing each other.

:slight_smile: