Gay Marriage

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

If any one would consent to a marriage of any type they would also concede that 1/2 of their earnings ,savings and equity could be in question

I think your scenario about every body marrying every body is rediculous
[/quote]

Hey, your definition of marriage allows for it. [/quote]

it is ok with me
[/quote]

I think your scenario is away to demagogue this thread
[/quote]

It’s not a scenario, it’s highlighting your definition of marriage.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits a state from promoting one religious tenet over another or over non-religous tenets unless the state has a legitimate secular interest in doing so.

[/quote]

No it doesn’t. It prohibits the establishment of a national religion by Congress. That’s it.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits a state from promoting one religious tenet over another or over non-religous tenets unless the state has a legitimate secular interest in doing so.

[/quote]

No it doesn’t. It prohibits the establishment of a national religion by Congress. That’s it.[/quote]

Not according to the Supreme Court. And I am not really interested in revisiting Marbury v. Madison. I frequently disagree with Supreme Court decisions, but I don’t dispute that the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the law trumps mine.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

If any one would consent to a marriage of any type they would also concede that 1/2 of their earnings ,savings and equity could be in question

I think your scenario about every body marrying every body is rediculous
[/quote]

Hey, your definition of marriage allows for it. [/quote]

it is ok with me
[/quote]

I think your scenario is away to demagogue this thread
[/quote]

It’s not a scenario, it’s highlighting your definition of marriage.[/quote]

It is Demagoguery

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits a state from promoting one religious tenet over another or over non-religous tenets unless the state has a legitimate secular interest in doing so.

[/quote]

No it doesn’t. It prohibits the establishment of a national religion by Congress. That’s it.[/quote]

Not according to the Supreme Court. And I am not really interested in revisiting Marbury v. Madison. I frequently disagree with Supreme Court decisions, but I don’t dispute that the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the law trumps mine. [/quote]

You’re confusing case law(precedent) with law. Read the Establishment Clause itself. The Supreme Court decision to which you refer was Everson v Board of Education (1947) and related to federal funding given to a Catholic school. Justice Hugo Black, who wrote the findings was a Klansman and notorious anti-Catholic bigot. His findings have absolutely no Constitutional basis whatsoever and were merely a vehicle for his bigotry. Read the actual clause itself.

‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof’

Seems pretty straight forward to me. Perhaps if I were a Klansman I could read more into it.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits a state from promoting one religious tenet over another or over non-religous tenets unless the state has a legitimate secular interest in doing so.

[/quote]

No it doesn’t. It prohibits the establishment of a national religion by Congress. That’s it.[/quote]

Not according to the Supreme Court. And I am not really interested in revisiting Marbury v. Madison. I frequently disagree with Supreme Court decisions, but I don’t dispute that the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the law trumps mine. [/quote]

You’re confusing case law(precedent) with law. Read the Establishment Clause itself. The Supreme Court decision to which you refer was Everson v Board of Education (1947) and related to federal funding given to a Catholic school. Justice Hugo Black, who wrote the findings was a Klansman and notorious anti-Catholic bigot. His findings have absolutely no Constitutional basis whatsoever and were merely a vehicle for his bigotry. Read the actual clause itself.[/quote]

I’m not really interested in debating this point other than to note that Supreme Court “case law” is “the law” in our system. When I clerked for a judge we routinely got tax protestors who made similar arguments about the invalidity of Supreme Court precedent–before and after they were sentenced and taken to jail.

Also, I was not referring to any one opinion I was referring to a body of decisions over the last century that have interpreted the meaning of the Establishment Clause. There isn’t just one case there are many.

Finally, as a matter of policy, I don’t see why you would want legislation with solely a religious purpose, especially if you are religious. What if you were a minority in your community regarding your religious views? Do you really want people voting in Sharia law and shoving it down your throat?

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
I don’t see why you would want legislation with solely a religious purpose, especially if you are religious. What if you were a minority in your community regarding your religious views? Do you really want people voting in Sharia law and shoving it down your throat?

[/quote]

The Defence of Marriage Act is not legislation with a “solely…religious purpose” and it doesn’t matter what I want or don’t want. What matters is the original intent of the Constitution. Regarding sharia law; sharia law would be unconstitutional as it “prohibits the free exercise” of other religions.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
I don’t see why you would want legislation with solely a religious purpose, especially if you are religious. What if you were a minority in your community regarding your religious views? Do you really want people voting in Sharia law and shoving it down your throat?

[/quote]

The Defence of Marriage Act is not legislation with a “solely…religious purpose” and it doesn’t matter what I want or don’t want. What matters is the original intent of the Constitution. Regarding sharia law; sharia law would be unconstitutional as it “prohibits the free exercise” of other religions.[/quote]

Circling back to the original post that started this exchange, I stated that:

“as a matter of policy I don’t see that the state has any legitimate, non-religuous based interest in declaring that homosexuality is ‘abhorrent and unnatural,’” and you asked what this has to do the the First Amendment. I then pointed out that, without a secular purpose, the state declaring that homosexuality is “abhorrent and unnatural” would run afoul of the Establishment Clause.

Regarding the Defense of Marriage Act, assuming without conceding that it has non-religious purposes, even so, it has Equal Protection problems. At least one panel of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals agrees with me on this and ultimately this issue will need to be decided by the Supreme Court.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

Circling back to the original post that started this exchange, I stated that:

“as a matter of policy I don’t see that the state has any legitimate, non-religuous based interest in declaring that homosexuality is ‘abhorrent and unnatural,’” and you asked what this has to do the the First Amendment. I then pointed out that, without a secular purpose, the state declaring that homosexuality is “abhorrent and unnatural” would run afoul of the Establishment Clause.

Regarding the Defense of Marriage Act, assuming without conceding that it has non-religious purposes, even so, it has Equal Protection problems. At least one panel of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals agrees with me on this and ultimately this issue will need to be decided by the Supreme Court.

[/quote]

Again, you are relying upon radical activist justices. Rely on the Constitution and its original intent. Gay men have equal protection under the law. As Kamui pointed out and as I have previously pointed out, they have the exact same right as “straight” men: to marry a woman or not to marry a woman.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

See Burke. Buggery laws have been in existence in the civilised world for half a millenia. Before that they were prosecuted under ecclesiastical laws. Civilised societies have always considered sodomy an abhorrent and unnatural act. It’s condemned as such in the bible. I’m not convinced that leftists and radical libertarians of the last 50 years have more wisdom in this regard than that accumulated over centuries and expressed unequivocally in the bible.

I didn’t say that was the grounds for my opposition.

[quote]
The second adjective, “unnatural,” is not true: it is entirely natural in that it is something which certain men and women–creatures of nature, mind you–do.

It occurs naturally in the animal world as well: List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia [/quote]

Yeah, I expected that response. Chimpanzees bugger their children too. I contend it is unnatural for humans to do so.[/quote]

Unnatural is a meaningless word. If something occurs in nature, it is by definition natural. So everything that we’re talking about is natural. Or do you mean “not what was intended?” Intended by whom? Can you prove that this entity exists and can you provide further evidence that you somehow “know” what he/she/it intends?

If it is “unnatural,” maybe you should say so to the millions of people across the world who have a natural urge to do it. It might surprise them.

“Buggery laws have been in existence in the civilised world for half a millenia. Before that they were prosecuted under ecclesiastical laws. Civilised societies have always considered sodomy an abhorrent and unnatural act. It’s condemned as such in the bible.”

None of this advances your argument even a microscopic fraction of an inch toward proving that homosexuality–and more specifically gay marriage–is somehow a threat to heterosexual marriage/procreation. Laws have condemned it before? Absolutely and entirely irrelevant. Many laws have been written in the course of human events. Not a single one of them is ipso facto worth a damn.

And the Bible stuff…it should be pretty obvious why I’m going to discard that. The Bible has no place in American government, the Bible is not a credible source of anything as far as very many people are concerned, the Bible says LOTS of things are immoral and we do almost all of them, etc. etc. Take your pick.

Again–in what way is gay marriage a threat to anyone else on Earth?

Edited

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
The state defining marriage is always discriminatory.

So you do believe any human arrangement regardless of sex, intimacy, geographical distance, number involved, or any other imaginative circumstance should be able to ‘marry,’ so long as the arrangement is between consenting adults.[/quote]

And, if you could put this to rest for us with a response. Is this what you believe? Or is this solely about homosexual marriage? If the latter, could you edit out the statement I quoted, since it no longer would apply to your argument? Or at least heavily edit it? And any mention of inequality would need to come to an end.[/quote]

I believe that marriage rights should be extended to include a union between any two consenting adults.

It is my arbitrary definition pitted against yours. I don’t accept yours any more than you accept mine. It is not an institution geared toward procreation simply because you say it is.

The simple fact is that marriage does not have a definition. It is ours, we choose just what it is and just what it isn’t. And that’s what we’re trying to do right now.

Now, if we could please get to the meat of the discussion rather than dancing around with this cheap misdirection–a misdirection that I will not address further since I’ve now plainly stated that I simply do not accept your definition of marriage and will not do so:

In order to persuade me that homosexuals should be denied the right to marry, you must persuade me that homosexual marriage poses a threat to the common good. If this isn’t so, the legalization of gay marriage has in its disadvantages column NOTHING and in its advantages column “that it is something that millions of American citizens would like to do.” Maybe not much, but certainly more than any disadvantage you’re willing to expose, so the motion passes. Marriage for the gays.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Unnatural is a meaningless word. If something occurs in nature, it is by definition natural. So everything that we’re talking about is natural.

[/quote]

unnatural
adj

  1. contrary to nature; abnormal

  2. not in accordance with accepted standards of behaviour or right and wrong

un·nat·u·ral
adj.

  1. In violation of a natural law.

  2. Inconsistent with an individual pattern or custom.

  3. Deviating from a behavioral or social norm:

I meant what I said.

I don’t need to prove that.

That’s besides the point.

Who says that urge is “natural?” Certainly not natural in the sense that I used the word.

That wasn’t my argument. You’re building a strawman.

It’s not irrelevant to the point I was making about the “wisdom of ages” and the primacy of intuition.

I disagree.

[quote]
Again–in what way is gay marriage a threat to anyone else on Earth?[/quote]

In the way I have already described. Sodomy is a deviant sexual practice that should not be condoned for the good of the civil society - i.e., so we don’t have as many sexual deviants in our society and so people who have such urges will be less likely to act upon them.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
And the Bible stuff…it should be pretty obvious why I’m going to discard that. The Bible has no place in American government, the Bible is not a credible source of anything as far as very many people are concerned, the Bible says LOTS of things are immoral and we do almost all of them, etc. etc. Take your pick.

I disagree.

[/quote]

With what?

With the notion that we shouldn’t legislate based on a book of mythology that is millennia old?

Really? You’re always going on about patriots and extremists. That is an extreme position.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
And the Bible stuff…it should be pretty obvious why I’m going to discard that. The Bible has no place in American government, the Bible is not a credible source of anything as far as very many people are concerned, the Bible says LOTS of things are immoral and we do almost all of them, etc. etc. Take your pick.

I disagree.

[/quote]

With what?

With the notion that we shouldn’t legislate based on a book of mythology that is millennia old?

Really? You’re always going on about patriots and extremists. That is an extreme position.[/quote]

You say it’s a book of mythology. That doesn’t make it so. I believe people should be able to legislate based on their beliefs and convictions however they are formed. Clearly you have a problem with that.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

I believe that marriage rights should be extended to include a union between any two consenting adults.
[/quote]

Rights are God-given and unalienable. They don’t come from leftists or radical libertarians.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

It is my arbitrary definition pitted against yours.[/quote]

Mine is hardly arbitrary. Smh, you’re much too smart to forget thAT my definition encompasses natural reproductive reality as it pairs the reproductive sexes…Let’s keep this an honest discussion.

[quote]Now, if we could please get to the meat of the discussion rather than dancing around with this cheap misdirection–a misdirection that I will not address further since I’ve now plainly stated that I simply do not accept your definition of marriage and will not do so:

In order to persuade me that homosexuals should be denied the right to marry, you must persuade me that homosexual marriage poses a threat to the common good. If this isn’t so, the legalization of gay marriage has in its disadvantages column NOTHING and in its advantages column “that it is something that millions of American citizens would like to do.” Maybe not much, but certainly more than any disadvantage you’re willing to expose, so the motion passes. Marriage for the gays.[/quote]

It’s not my burden of proof. You would discriminate against all other imaginative human arrangements, through positive government action, in order to have the state recognize a whopping one other relationship. A relationship you yourself say you define arbitrarily.

SM is rockin this thread for now. I’ll leave it alone for this next comment about Sloth’s favorite method on this topic. [quote]Sloth wrote:<<< It’s not my burden of proof. You would discriminate against all other imaginative human arrangements, through positive government action, in order to have the state recognize a whopping one other relationship. A relationship you yourself say you define arbitrarily.[/quote]This IS a great argument too btw. He used it for the other 16 gay marriage threads and nobody got it then either.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

Circling back to the original post that started this exchange, I stated that:

“as a matter of policy I don’t see that the state has any legitimate, non-religuous based interest in declaring that homosexuality is ‘abhorrent and unnatural,’” and you asked what this has to do the the First Amendment. I then pointed out that, without a secular purpose, the state declaring that homosexuality is “abhorrent and unnatural” would run afoul of the Establishment Clause.

Regarding the Defense of Marriage Act, assuming without conceding that it has non-religious purposes, even so, it has Equal Protection problems. At least one panel of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals agrees with me on this and ultimately this issue will need to be decided by the Supreme Court.

[/quote]

Again, you are relying upon radical activist justices. Rely on the Constitution and its original intent. Gay men have equal protection under the law. As Kamui pointed out and as I have previously pointed out, they have the exact same right as “straight” men: to marry a woman or not to marry a woman.[/quote]

I’m not relying on any “radical activist judges,” I’m relying on my understanding of the requirements of the Equal Protection Clause and the way that clause has been interpreted by the Supreme Court of the United States over course of history using their Constitutionally authorized and mandated Article III powers. Even the most conservative Article III judges today agree that equal protection under the law means that any classifications the law makes are made without respect to particular persons, that like cases are treated alike, that those who appear similarly situated are not treated differently without, at the very least, a rational reason for the difference.

In analyzing an Equal Protection Clause claim, courts first ask whether the challenged state action intentionally discriminates between groups of persons. Second, and after an act of intentional discrimination against a particular group is identified either by presumption or evidence and inference, courts ask whether the state’s intentional decision to discriminate can be justified by reference to some upright government purpose. Unless a legislative classification or distinction burdens a fundamental right or targets a suspect class, courts will uphold it if it is rationally related to a legitimate end. If an action targets a suspect class, the action receives stricter scrutiny.

The eventual outcome of the gay-marriage issue and the Equal Protection Clause will largely depend on how the issue gets framed, the actual law that gets before the Supreme Court, and the level of scrutiny the Court uses: rational, intermediate, or strict. I personally think that because homosexuality is an immutable characteristic at least for some individuals the issue should be analyzed under at least intermediate scrutiny, but I personally don’t think that banning gay marriage is anything other than arbitrary and capricious state action that is motivated by purely religious reasons and should not even pass the rational-basis test.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Civilised societies have always considered sodomy an abhorrent and unnatural act.
[/quote]
I am pretty sure that at least one ancient pagan society considered consensual sodomy an acceptable form of male bonding. But even they did not think that two males or two females could marry each other – pretty sure that one is new, at least as a widespread idea.