Gay Marriage: Traditional Marriage Predates State and Church

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

I remember years back someone posted, in some random thread, a picture of two teenage guys kissing. One poster replied “Ugh, Kill them both.” Shockingly, I didn’t see a ton of replies “self regulating” the “etiquette of these forums”. [/quote]

And? So? Does that mean that somehow your idiotic drivel is somehow exempt from scorn just because you - sniff - think there wasn’t adequate reaction in the past?

Nope. And I’ve defended Forlife from unpleasant rhetoric directed at him in the past. Unlike you, I actually think the door of standards swings both ways, and certain comments are off-limits.

Don’t like it? Who cares? You are one of the dimmest bulbs around here. Say something worthwhile and intelligent and no one will lash out at you for being a twerp. Till then, I’ll treat your obnxious speech in the same way as I treated the obnoxious speech calling Forlife a “f*g” - worthy of contempt and worthy of letting the person responsible of the comment that they are contemptible.[/quote]

At least you don’t use personal attacks or insults.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Don’t talk to a traditionalist, [/quote]The point I’m making Chris is that in the forums I’ve been in and with many MANY Catholics I’ve known personally it pretty much is like in the book of Judges after Joshua died when everyone did what was right in their own eyes. You say that says nothing of the legitimate authority of the Catholic church. I say it is a symptom of the Catholic church not actually having any authority.

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Its also awful nice that you wouldnt tolerate that kind of talk if it was directed at Forlife for his homosexuality, TB.

Its equally nice that you’ll tolerate years of accusations that he “lives in sin”, “is a sinner”, “is a pedophile”, “knows he’s wrong”, “hates himself”, that him raising a child would be child abuse, that he can’t “really love” his partner, attacks on him “abandoning his family”, that he will burn in hellfire for all eternity, that having consentual sexual relations with his partner should be considered a criminal activity, and thus he should be in jail, that he “has a mental disorder”, that he should not be able to marry his longtime monogamous partner…

[/quote]

People have a right to accuse in our society; to accuse Christians of being judgmental, or blind to scientific truth, to accuse gays of being immoral, to accuse accusers of wrongly accusing and accuse the tolerant of tolerating too much.

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Please point out an argument I’ve made (about homosexuality, gay marriage, or anything else) and explain how it was illogical. (Note - if you reply to this with some form of “its not worth my time”, you automatically concede that you have no argument).[/quote]

That’s easy - your position that someone who refuses to endorse gay marriage must ipso facto be a bigot or homophobe.

Good, because it did cross a line of decency. And as I posed to Dustin, if someone had used those exact words to Forlife on account of his sexuality, they’d be just as indecent. Either you get this, or you don’t.

Super.

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

At least you don’t use personal attacks or insults. [/quote]

I never said I didn’t - but I do generally reserve them for loathesome twerps who bring the collective IQ of PWI down.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
At the last DIOCESAN Roman Catholic Mass I attended the entrance, offertory, eucharistic and closing “hymns” were Let it Be, The Greatest Love, Here comes the Sun and Goodbye Stranger.
[/quote]

That’s not change. That’s liturgical abuse, and you should report it to the Bishop. Go to a Tridentine Mass, or a Divine Liturgy if you want old school. That’s all I go to unless I don’t have a choice.

P.S. It’s not called Diocesan Roman Catholic Mass, it’s called Novus Ordo, or Ordinary Form and it should be sung with English Chant or approved hymns, and Let it Be is definitely not one of them (the rest I am not sure what they are). [/quote]

I am not titling it “Diocesan Roman Catholic Mass” I am describing it. It was a Roman Catholic Mass done in a Diocesan parish. What is wrong with describing something with, um, adjectives?

Well you’ve answered, but Goodby Stranger is a song from Supertramp about saying goodbye to a lover from a one night stand.

- YouTube if you want.

I also was appalled by the number of hosts I uncovered stuck under the pews and into missellettes.

Most of the music in maybe 250 masses I attended were old protestant hymns like How Great thou Art, Peace is flowing like a River, As the Rain Rushes Down…

[/quote]

No thanks, I don’t listen to trash. And, yeah. This is part of the problem with the liberal agenda through the 70’s. It’s turning around, but there is a definitely parishes that are still liberal.

I went into a parish and they were playing Amazing Grace. I pulled the music minister aside and asked him if he wished to be a Protestant. Of course, he said…“No, no…I’m a devout Catholic.” I asked them why he was playing a song that promoted Protestant doctrine written by a slave trader? Of course, “he shrugged me off.” So, I spoke to the Father. He admitted that it was too much trouble to deal with and that he dare not suggest that go to the correct Latin chant. I asked if it was too much trouble to stop an abuse to our Lord’s liturgy? He told me that was nonsense, it was ‘just music.’ I, then, asked him if it would be too much trouble if the Bishop commanded that he changed the music.

The Father tried to shrug me off as if I wouldn’t dare. I told him that if he didn’t immediately change the music, that I would have no other choice. I came back the next Sunday and there was some better songs and Amazing Grace wasn’t in there, but still not acceptable. So, I wrote to the Bishop and handed it to him (there was other liturgical abuses, but they are more scandalous).

I gave it sometime as a I knew the man is busy, a couple months went by and it still hadn’t stopped, and slowly went back to worse and worse music. So, I called the Bishops office and told him that since nothing was being done that I would have to send the evidence and receipts for the letters to the US Conference. He told me that there was no need and that the priest was going on vacation for a few months and that another Father would be there by today.

Two months later the man came back completely converted, solid in his formation, solid in everything from liturgy to sacramentals. No more protestant music, new music ministers, new choir (that was in the back of the sanctuary). And, now he says all his liturgies in Latin almost exclusively.

Change can be done, the reason why it happened in the first place is that the people who have always kept it conservative were no longer conservative, they were affected by the liberal agenda of change is best.

What most people do not realise is that it isn’t the Bishops and priests that have kept the tradition (I mean they are, but they usually come up with the crazy ideas), it’s the laity who keep it traditional by resisting the change. By uprising when there are heretics. And, when they fall to liberalism, it gets tough. Now, people are becoming more and more conservative and the Church is becoming more and more conservative.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Good, because it did cross a line of decency. And as I posed to Dustin, if someone had used those exact words to Forlife on account of his sexuality, they’d be just as indecent. Either you get this, or you don’t.[/quote]

They would be indecent, but let’s be honest - if anyone makes a derogatory comment about forlife and his lifestyle (or unfounded assumptions about) on this forum, you don’t come rushing to his defense.

This:

…has a lot of merit. There have been endless posts of that nature directed at forlife (and others) on this forum and the reaction toward such vitriol has been less than noticeable.

So let’s not pretend that Capped has said anything as devastating as you make it out to be.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Nice chant, though its too bad that Popes Leo I and III both forbade singing “and the Son” at mass.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Filioque[/quote]

Is your only care about ‘and the Son’? Because, I thought we already figured that out in the Council of Florence in 1439? And, the Council deemed it obligatory?

I believe that the reason for the split again in the 1450’s was because of the pressure from the Muslims who conquered the Orthodox and demanded the disunion because of the West’s possibility of military aid for the East?

Most Orthodox Bishops I have read and talked to (the EO Bishop came to town not to long ago) say that Filioque isn’t an issue as our understanding of “from the Son” and “through the Son” are the same, just different language (Latin and Greek).

Just so you know, I absolutely love my Orthodox brethren (four of my cousins are Coptics, and several of them are Coptic Catholics living in Egypt but have come back after the troubles). I am actually on a fundraising committee to raise money so that the local Greek Orthodox can keep their Church and not have to sell it.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Don’t talk to a traditionalist, [/quote]The point I’m making Chris is that in the forums I’ve been in and with many MANY Catholics I’ve known personally it pretty much is like in the book of Judges after Joshua died when everyone did what was right in their own eyes. You say that says nothing of the legitimate authority of the Catholic church. I say it is a symptom of the Catholic church not actually having any authority.
[/quote]

It’s actually not, because what you forget is that the authority pertains to doctrine and matters of faith and morality and not enforcing temporal punishment to those who sin. You’re ‘authority’ is referring to the latter, I am referring to the former.

The Catholic Church is, always has been, and always will be the authority on faith and morals.

[quote]Makavali wrote:

They would be indecent, but let’s be honest - if anyone makes a derogatory comment about forlife and his lifestyle (or unfounded assumptions about) on this forum, you don’t come rushing to his defense.[/quote]

Horseshit. When Forlife was being called a “fag” by a poster, I stepped in and noted my contempt for it. I certainly don’t rifle through every post - some of us have full-time jobs - but in the express example of Forlife, I have, in fact, “rushed to his defense” on prior occasions.

On other occasions, I have spared no venom at denouncing posters for disgusting, outright racism (Nominal Prospect) and idiotic bigotry directed at immigrants (PRCalDude).

You’ve got over 13,700 posts on this site, and I can’t recall any one of them adding much substance at all. Aspire to be something other than a pebble in my shoe, or don’t respond to my posts. At a minimum, get your facts straight.

It’s not some idea that Capped said something “devastating” - Capped is a dullard and an uninteresting poster whou couldn’t argue his way out of a wet paper sack. The point is not that what he said was "devastating’, but rather it was beyond the pale of what we should tolerate, because such comments are simply disgusting and are problematic because they invite more disgusting comments of the same nature.

So, the idea is to strangle that kind of nonsense in its crib - nip it in the bud, lest PWI become some forum where interesting debate goes away in favor of hateful jibberish back and forth between opposing ideas.

Call me old-fashioned, but PWI used to be a lot smarter and interesting - lots of different posters from different viewpoints and backgrounds had great debates, especially around election time. Comments of the kind offered by Capped are only hastening its decline, and small wonder why so many of the smart, interesting people have left.

One of my favorite hymns of all time written I believe by an Episcopalian.
Absolutely magnificent: - YouTube
[b]1. HOLY, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to thee;
Holy, holy, holy! merciful and mighty!
God in three persons, blessed Trinity!

  1. Holy, holy, holy! all the saints adore Thee,
    Casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea;
    Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
    Which wert and art and everymore shall be!

  2. Holy, holy, holy! though the darkness hide Thee,
    Though the eye of sinful man Thy glory may not see,
    Only Thou art holy, there is none beside Thee,
    Perfect in power, in love, and purity!

  3. Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty!
    All Thy works shall praise Thy name, in earth, and sky, and sea.
    Holy, holy, holy! merciful and mighty!
    God in three persons, blessed Trinity![/b]
    I don’t care who wrote it. It gets from from my heart to God’s in most majestic fashion.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Nice chant, though its too bad that Popes Leo I and III both forbade singing “and the Son” at mass.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Filioque[/quote]

Is your only care about ‘and the Son’? Because, I thought we already figured that out in the Council of Florence in 1439? And, the Council deemed it obligatory?

I believe that the reason for the split again in the 1450’s was because of the pressure from the Muslims who conquered the Orthodox and demanded the disunion because of the West’s possibility of military aid for the East?

Most Orthodox Bishops I have read and talked to (the EO Bishop came to town not to long ago) say that Filioque isn’t an issue as our understanding of “from the Son” and “through the Son” are the same, just different language (Latin and Greek).

Just so you know, I absolutely love my Orthodox brethren (four of my cousins are Coptics, and several of them are Coptic Catholics living in Egypt but have come back after the troubles). I am actually on a fundraising committee to raise money so that the local Greek Orthodox can keep their Church and not have to sell it. [/quote]

The council was called by the Pope who invited Eastern Bishops, under political pressure and they negotiated a reunification, which by the way would have made the Pope the head of the Eastern Churches. From the Orthodox perspective, the agreements were never finalized. The messages sent to the Eastern churches to call the council stated “the Pope has become Orthodox” Today, at least we view council of Florence as having been an unfortunate politically motivated bribe on the part of Rome which the Orthodox perceived would save lives.

My friend who studied in at the Vatican when Pope Benedict was having a series of meetings with Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople said that they only discussed the Filioque for half a day, and basically agreed that however it came about, the current issue was only a difference in interpretation.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
One of my favorite hymns of all time written I believe by an Episcopalian.
Absolutely magnificent: - YouTube
[b]1. HOLY, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to thee;
Holy, holy, holy! merciful and mighty!
God in three persons, blessed Trinity!

  1. Holy, holy, holy! all the saints adore Thee,
    Casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea;
    Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
    Which wert and art and everymore shall be!

  2. Holy, holy, holy! though the darkness hide Thee,
    Though the eye of sinful man Thy glory may not see,
    Only Thou art holy, there is none beside Thee,
    Perfect in power, in love, and purity!

  3. Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty!
    All Thy works shall praise Thy name, in earth, and sky, and sea.
    Holy, holy, holy! merciful and mighty!
    God in three persons, blessed Trinity![/b]
    I don’t care who wrote it. It gets from from my heart to God’s in most majestic fashion.[/quote]

That is nice. Most of the individual lines are from Psalms or early church Odes. The truth is that the Orthodox, and Roman Catholic services are loaded top to bottom with scriptural songs and prayers.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< You’re ‘authority’ is referring to the latter, I am referring to the former. >>>[/quote]No… it is not. The authority I’m referring to is that which would be used of God to either convict men of their disobedience or excommunicate them for immorality and or heresy. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of Catholics could not possibly care less about sin, holiness OR the magisterium, if they even know what that is.

People with Catholic paraphernalia all over their office who’ll defend their “religion” to the death. However when you mention that maybe God frowns on them lying to their wife so they can bang the secretary and rip off their customers it’s “hey don’t go gittin all righteous on me huh. I go to confession and do my penance”. The fact that that is an abuse of church teaching simply reinforces my point. Who cares.

This is what we sing for the offertory on Holy Saturday (midnight service).
It originate in the Liturgy of St. James, first bishop, and martyr of Jerusalem in the Liturgy beginning circa 34 AD. The last one has a little protestant poetic embelishment with some added lines.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

At least you don’t use personal attacks or insults. [/quote]

I never said I didn’t - but I do generally reserve them for loathesome twerps who bring the collective IQ of PWI down.[/quote]

Ok. You win. I’ll leave.

Edit: Nah. Changed my mind.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]goldengloves wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Obviously they were right for 2000 years.
[/quote]

Practiced =/= right.[/quote]

Experience = knowledge.[/quote]

If that’s the case then Hinduism must be the true religion seeing as they’ve existed and have been “getting it right” for more than 2,000 years whilst gaining the experience and knowledge to successfully have you reincarnated as livestock.

[/quote]

Except they haven’t been consistent, they have morphed into a complete different religion then what they were. Catholics, same truths since the beginning, same G-d, same salvation.[/quote]

Alright then, Judaism. Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion and hasn’t undergone any profound changes. Does that mean the only truths are that of Judaism?

[quote]goldengloves wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]goldengloves wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Obviously they were right for 2000 years.
[/quote]

Practiced =/= right.[/quote]

Experience = knowledge.[/quote]

If that’s the case then Hinduism must be the true religion seeing as they’ve existed and have been “getting it right” for more than 2,000 years whilst gaining the experience and knowledge to successfully have you reincarnated as livestock.

[/quote]

Except they haven’t been consistent, they have morphed into a complete different religion then what they were. Catholics, same truths since the beginning, same G-d, same salvation.[/quote]

Alright then, Judaism. Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion and hasn’t undergone any profound changes. Does that mean the only truths are that of Judaism?
[/quote]

Except extensive parts of Judaism are blatantly ripped off from nearby cultures.

[quote]goldengloves wrote:<<< Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion and hasn’t undergone any profound changes. >>>[/quote]Actually it has. It’s now Christianity.
@mertdawg: I find you interesting and engaging just like my dear friend Christopher. I’ll never ignore you so don’t take my lack of timely response to mean that I am, but life does call. I will answer and listen as soon as I can.

Twila writes produces and sings all her own hymns. I’ll ya what. I cannot hear this song without winding up with my hands raised to heaven and just adoring my precious Jesus. Seriously:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:<<< this is what we sing for the offertory on Holy Saturday (midnight service). >>>[/quote]I like the second one best. Of course the content is solid.