[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
.
No prob with gays marrying in South Africa. Just don’t riot and shoot at Mormons here because this clean and moral country voted it out.
We have no desire to roll around in your muck, trying to bugger one another. Keep it there.
[/quote]
Yep,we all know buying children dildos and creating your homoerotic alter egos on here keep you very busy.Keep your mental filth to yourself,the world will be a better place for it.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Exactly, this is eerily familiar to some of the recent threads on gay marriage:
“[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God…it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation…it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts.” Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.[/quote]
Well done, Forlife - with perhaps the most idiotic example we have ever seen, you have earned the most dubious distinction: the Bozo Nose.
First, to the point you were dovetailing on, the majority didn’t support Jefferson Davis’ views, that is why Jefferson Davis had to secede from the Union - precisely the opposite reason as you posit, genius.
Second, chattel slavery - one of Man’s worst sins - was a denial of natural rights. You don’t have a natural right to an artificial “institution”, nor do you have a natural right to government benefits as a result of your lifestyle. Slavery involved depriving human beings of their freedom via negative rights by treating them as property - your claim isn’t in the same universe.
We’ve established your self-advertised “PhD!!!” isn’t in logic or history…and we are running out of subjects.
Congratulations on being recognized as Top Clown.
[quote]forlife wrote:
That’s exactly what I was talking about. I was referring to the relationship of gay marriage to existing children, and the likelihood of those children being raised by both biological parents.[/quote]
Now I understand why it’s ultimately no fun to debate with you - your lack of ability. You state the above - and then proceed to:
…without an ounce of irony that it does not follow.
It’s getting late early.
The first point - that gay marriage has largely a neutral direct effect on the chances of kids not being raised by the biological parents being suddenly raised by their biological parents - is correct: we, collectively and individually, have already put them into the bad situation of being raised outside their parents…the damage is done. Enacting gay marriage won’t correct that error - thus, the first point remains correct.
The second point is not a predicate of the first - your conclusion doesn’t follow from the first. Gay marriage certainly does harm traditional marriage for all the reasons we have been through independent of what you keep harping on w/r/t “unwanted kids” - it invites the destruction of marriage by defining it out of existence, etc.
That you can’t remember - or conveniently choose not to remember - those arguments and hit “reset” again for the 455th time is beyond boring and desperate at this point: it’s plain unsporting.
You have this silly habit of trying to leap to a conclusion you want while skipping all the hard stuff in between - but that isn’t working, and you don’t have good answers to fix it.
Asked and answered.
Gay marriage essentially says “the arrangements are equal, so either is fine for kids” - clearly not true. We have no desire as a society to incentivize folks any arrangement other than the superior one, lest we see more of it.
Other arrangements with kids will happen - but we should neither endorse it, nor encourage, and more importantly, we shouldn’t subsidize it.
Not terribly, but your credibility is somewhere in between “chuckling at your posts” and “skipping them entirely”, so until you can up your game, and stop pretending to be “outraged” by arguments you have heard a thousand times but done nothing particularly worthwhile to address, you will continue to be the hypocritical cartoon of the very thing you claim to despise: the Mindless Fundamentalist.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
“[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God…it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation…it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts.” Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.
First, to the point you were dovetailing on, the majority didn’t support Jefferson Davis’ views, that is why Jefferson Davis had to secede from the Union - precisely the opposite reason as you posit, genius.[/quote]
Uhh… and what about in the societies where slavery was supported by the majority (the ones Jefferson Davis is talking about)?
When the majority is against slavery, you use that as an example of why majority should rule… but in the cases when the majority is for slavery… what then?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Gay marriage essentially says “the arrangements are equal, so either is fine for kids” - clearly not true. We have no desire as a society to incentivize folks any arrangement other than the superior one, lest we see more of it.
[/quote]
So, you aren’t against gays, but you support a system which, you admit, pressures them to act in a way that does not naturally follow their orientation?
Its just, I read that “lest we see more of it” as indicating that you think, were gay marriage legal, more gay partnerships would form… which leads to the logical conclusion that there are now gay people who are not in gay partnerships because it is not legal.
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
There are no amount of “social or religious pressures” which can make most normal heterosexual men have sex with other men.
men have sex with men in prison.[/quote]
The amount of men who have sex with men in prison is minuscule as I think I pointed out in prior debates with you. You cannot compare that tiny percentage to the very high number of homosexual men who willingly have sex with women on a regular basis.
I understand what you’re saying forlife, however as I’ve said so many times before; most normal healthy heterosexual men do not have sex with other men.
You really cannot explain why the vast majority of homosexual men have sex with women. Keep in mind this is after they come out of the closet. It continues repeatedly. I also understand that these homosexual men prefer having sex with other men, but continue to have sex with women as well.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Jefferson Davis got crushed, dude. Moral people crushed him and his slave society. [/quote]
The point is that Jefferson Davis used the bible to justify slavery, just as you use the bible to justify homophobia. He didn’t see himself as a bigot, and you don’t either. Bigots never do.
And before you start preaching about how much you love the gays but disapprove of their actions, I’m talking about practical bigotry. I don’t care how you feel about gays, it is the policies you promote that I find to be bigoted.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Gay marriage essentially says “the arrangements are equal, so either is fine for kids” - clearly not true.
[/quote]
Prove it. How does gay marriage incent straight couples in any way not to get married, or to divorce if they have children?
Are you even thinking through the underlying premise of your argument? Does that not sound bizarre to you once you take a moment to reflect? Or are you so invested in the hamster wheel of your anti-gay marriage crusade that you can’t take a step back to evaluate the gist of your argument?
Why the hell would a straight couple choose not to marry just because gays are allowed to marry? Why would they divorce because gays are allowed to marry?
It makes no sense.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I understand what you’re saying forlife, however as I’ve said so many times before; most normal healthy heterosexual men do not have sex with other men. [/quote]
Most normal heterosexual men are not raised in a culture/religion that demonizes their sexual orientation. It is impossible for you to understand that, because you haven’t been on the other side.
If you are so sure that straight men can’t have sex with other men, explain the Spartans.
Also, you continue to equate having sex with someone or something to having a romantic relationship and being in love with someone.
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I understand what you’re saying forlife, however as I’ve said so many times before; most normal healthy heterosexual men do not have sex with other men.
Most normal heterosexual men are not raised in a culture/religion that demonizes their sexual orientation. It is impossible for you to understand that, because you haven’t been on the other side.
If you are so sure that straight men can’t have sex with other men, explain the Spartans.
Also, you continue to equate having sex with someone or something to having a romantic relationship and being in love with someone.[/quote]
If they do then they arent straight despite what they may say. They can say it all day long but their actions, what they actually do tell another tale.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Jefferson Davis got crushed, dude. Moral people crushed him and his slave society.
The point is that Jefferson Davis used the bible to justify slavery, just as you use the bible to justify homophobia. He didn’t see himself as a bigot, and you don’t either. Bigots never do.
And before you start preaching about how much you love the gays but disapprove of their actions, I’m talking about practical bigotry. I don’t care how you feel about gays, it is the policies you promote that I find to be bigoted.[/quote]
I neither love nor hate gays. I think they are deranged, possibly on purpose to weed out weak genetics by nature.
Society deemed what marriage is. You have no ‘right’ to marry a man. Society decided what it is and you guys ain’t it. Now, in Cali, when society speaks, you bitch and riot, because you don’t understand that marriage is not an inherent right and society has spoken.
The fact that you either can’t or won’t recognize that makes you guilty of a fundamental crime — the crime of ‘not thinking’, to blank out reality and attempt to live in fantasyland. Thus is actually a death wish, since humans live by thinking.
Marriage is not a right in any sense.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Marriage is not a right in any sense.
[/quote]
Sorry. The Supreme Court disagrees with you and has said marriage IS a fundamental right. They have refused to rule on the constitutionality of bans on gay marriage. And probably will for some time. But if they did, to find them constitutional, they would have to find that 1. marriage is definitionally between a man and woman or otherwise that 2. restricting it to opposite couples furthers a compelling government intersts and is the least restrictive means of satisfying this.
Isn’t it cute how marriage is a right? Where’s that one listed at?
The right to a speedy marriage, after which the right to Government ok’d marriage benefits may be exercised.
I see nothing listed to prevent one from having a priest, or an interior designer, at a private level pronounce one to be wed (by whatever definition of marriage the person and his/her/she-male’s private institution of choice chooses to use).
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Isn’t it cute how marriage is a right? Where’s that one listed at?
The right to a speedy marriage, after which the right to Government ok’d marriage benefits may be exercised.
I see nothing listed to prevent one from having a priest, or an interior designer, at a private level pronounce one to be wed (by whatever definition of marriage the person and his/her/she-male’s private institution of choice chooses to use).[/quote]
A proper gay wedding, to which gays have a ‘right’, would be on the Jerry Springer show, by the Reverend Schnorr.
[quote]clip11 wrote:
If they do then they arent straight despite what they may say. They can say it all day long but their actions, what they actually do tell another tale.
[/quote]
Right, because relationships and love are about sex and nothing else.
Dumb ass.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Society deemed what marriage is. You have no ‘right’ to marry a man. Society decided what it is and you guys ain’t it. Now, in Cali, when society speaks, you bitch and riot, because you don’t understand that marriage is not an inherent right and society has spoken.
[/quote]
By your logic, blacks had no right to marry whites because “society” said they didn’t.
Fortunately, there is a document called the Constitution which guarantees equal protection to all citizens regardless of what “society” thinks about that.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Isn’t it cute how marriage is a right? Where’s that one listed at?
[/quote]
According to the California Supreme Court, marriage is indeed a right:
“Our state now recognizes that an individual’s capacity to establish a loving and long-term committed relationship with another person and responsibly to care for and raise children does not depend upon the individual’s sexual orientation,” George wrote for the majority. “An individual’s sexual orientation – like a person’s race or gender – does not constitute a legitimate basis upon which to deny or withhold legal rights.”
Of course, when the Supreme Court disagrees with you, they are only being “activist judges”.
Has the judge from Florida ruling a state ban on homosexuals adopting as being unconstitutional been covered yet?
Baby steps kids! Change takes time.
[quote]NeelyDan wrote:
Has the judge from Florida ruling a state ban on homosexuals adopting as being unconstitutional been covered yet?
Baby steps kids! Change takes time.[/quote]
I read that. It also mentioned that single gays could adopt, but gay couples couldn’t. Go figure.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Society deemed what marriage is. You have no ‘right’ to marry a man. Society decided what it is and you guys ain’t it. Now, in Cali, when society speaks, you bitch and riot, because you don’t understand that marriage is not an inherent right and society has spoken.
By your logic, blacks had no right to marry whites because “society” said they didn’t.
Fortunately, there is a document called the Constitution which guarantees equal protection to all citizens regardless of what “society” thinks about that.[/quote]
No one has a ‘right’ to marry anyone. You are born with rights — life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness (as a rational being). Marriage is a privilege granted by the group. Until you can gain enough votes from the group to sanction gay marriage, you CAN’T MARRY.
Rights are not social whims. Marriage is. Rights can only be taken away, never given. How can you be given what you already have just by the fact that you exist? Marriage requires a sanction by the group. Your rights require no sanction and are not up for a vote, ever.
Man, this moral relativism rot is just seeping through society.