Gay Marriage Down in Flames!

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

No, mine is a workable example, because in both the government is rewarding an action that is an intrinsic part of something, but those who wish to keep the benefit to themselves act as though the government is simply rewarding an action.[/quote]

But you fail to explain what the rational basis is for rewarding Muslims for their behavior. You will struggle with this, and the reason is we, as a society, elevate matters of conscience above other kinds of issues.

We don’t believe that there is a rational basis for punishing someone for their religion, it is different from other classifications you try and compare it to - and that is why we enshrined it in our First Amendment to the exclusion of other classifications.

Hogwash, because marriage serves a purpose beyond legally honoring a choice of companion. If that were the primary thrust of marriage, there would be an equal treatment argument. The benefits attached to marriage are for a specific kind of behavior we want to incentivize and control as a society - none of which arise naturally in a homosexual relationship.

So, there is, in fact, an equal right for a gay man to marry a woman, because that is the primary relationship - one that produces children - being addressed by having the public institution of marriage.

You keep whistling past the public purpose of marriage - presumably because it hurts your argument.

You also continue to make the same mistake Forlife did over and over - you fail to understand the distinction between negative and positive rights. In your religion example, the right being infringed upon is the right to not be punished for being a Christian, and the solution would be to protect that right - a negative right - by tearing down the benefits afforded Muslims.

If you submit that the Christian deserves “equal rights” to that of Muslims in your scenario, then you must protect the negative right and strip away interference with worship, getting rid of all benefits to religions (as they would all be equal), so no one gets government benefits. Or, in the alternative, you would try and elevate all religions to receive the benefits Muslims get, so Wiccans, Rastafarians, Buddhists, Pagans, in addition to Christians - all get whatever benefits the Muslims are entitled to.

And thanks for making my argument for me - under your scenario, we either get rid of all benefits for all “equal” relationships (religions) to produce equal treatment, or we extend the benefits to all “equal” relationships (religions) to produce equal treatment - and now you have done away with whatever privilege you were setting aside with government benefits in the first place, my argument from threads ago.

Congratulations - you just demonstrated how your “equality” argument can dissemble marriage into a nullity. Well done.

Homosexual relationships aren’t equal to heterosexual unions. That isn’t a naked insult - it is fact of nature and society. Society has much higher stake in preserving heterosexual unions for what should be obvious reasons: the ordering of child raising. Heterosexual unions simply matter more than all others because of their role and responsibilities.

I would appreciate it if everyone in this thread would take 6 minutes to listen to this clip from Keith Olbermann on MSNBC and share your thoughts:

http://www.msnbc.msn…com/id/3036677/#27652443

As a coworker and friend of mine wrote this week:

[b]If you ever wonder why I am an activist for universal marriage, then just watch and listen to this. Keith Olbermann is one of my heroes for how he takes on the extreme right. In this clip, he doesn’t just bristle with righteous indignation, he is emotional and passionate. He says it better than I could. Some, but not all of you, have lived through the consequences of being in a permanent loving relationship that is/was unrecognized by society and our laws. I was with Roland for 25 (yes, 25 !!!) years. When he died unexpectedly, I was denied any rights or even courtesies- I was not even allowed to view his body the next day. I was in a state of complete panic, disbelief, and horror. But I was not allowed to even see him. You see, I was not “next of kin” and had no rights under law. My “human rights” were never considered. Imagine what that felt like!

We who are gay, lesbian, whatever are not asking for anything special- just to be who we are, love who we must, and have the same amount of dignity anyone else has. In May 2007, I had the incredible privilege of “marrying” my partner, my love, Ray McQueen. We did this in our wonderful, open, caring church, First Unitarian Church of Dallas. It was the happiest day of my life. The second happiest day of my life will be when Ray & I can get legally married in Texas. Meanwhile, we have to take extraordinary legal means to protect each in ways that others take for granted and as an ordinary expectation of life. Don’t let this keep happening to loving people!!! Take a stand. Speak out! Vote with your hearts if you ever get the chance.[/b]

Thunder, regardless of whether you think of yourself as homophobic or not, the point is that you are actively promoting policies that hurt gays. Your actions are definitionally anti-gay.

There you go dodging my points again.

You said that marriage was justified on the grounds of promoting the welfare of children.

If that is true, why don’t you support marriage for gays with children?

You said that marriage for infertile straight couples was justified because it keeps men from having sex with multiple women.

If that is true, why don’t you support marriage for gay men which would reduce the spread of sexually transmitted diseases?

The problem with your “logic” is that it is always one-sided. You use it to justify straight marriage, but never carry the logic through to its natural conclusion.

[quote]forlife wrote:
Thunder, regardless of whether you think of yourself as homophobic or not, the point is that you are actively promoting policies that hurt gays. Your actions are definitionally anti-gay.

There you go dodging my points again.

You said that marriage was justified on the grounds of promoting the welfare of children.

If that is true, why don’t you support marriage for gays with children?

You said that marriage for infertile straight couples was justified because it keeps men from having sex with multiple women.

If that is true, why don’t you support marriage for gay men which would reduce the spread of sexually transmitted diseases?

The problem with your “logic” is that it is always one-sided. You use it to justify straight marriage, but never carry the logic through to its natural conclusion.[/quote]

Pathetic. Once again, you hide behind the canard that your opponent is “dodging your points”. Enough. We can’t get four posts into a decent exchange until you start wailing like a 9 year old with a skinned knee about how your opponents are “bigots” or “full of hate”.

No one is avoiding the issue - and you are losing respect as fast as I can type this.

You have the same ridiculous go-to move every time - every time. It’s tired and sad.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Exactly. The only reason straight guys dont have near the same number of partners is because women say no more often.

You’ve given the reason but the reason does not change the fact.[/quote]

I disagree, I think Roddy Piper could do the raving lunatic promo just as well as the Ultimate Warrior, if maybe not with the same level of energy (cause, I mean, seriously…Warrior!)

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

But “we” are certainly quick to site the high incidence of sexually transmitted infections in the gay community to justify bigotry against them.

Also, to go back to the “poisoning the well” theory, lower incidence of STIs in the gay community means less overspill into the straight community (by those damn dirty bisexuals).

But “you” need to take Ritalin - I never made the argument that we are justifying a lack of public marriage (your loaded “bigotry!” term) based on STDs, etc., so instead take it up with who did.
[/quote]

You’re suggesting the bigots aren’t on your side of the table?

[quote]

Hold on just a second. You just said that marriage in the straight community serves to improve fidelity…

Not just “fidelity” - fidelity with a particular harm to prevent in mind: children out of wedlock. Marriage isn’t just trying to prevent sex outside of marriage - it is primarily trying to prevent sex outside of marriage that leads to children out of wedlock.

You keep peddling the false assertion that society has marriage around just to keep couples together - that is incomplete, and thus, incorrect.[/quote]

I do not.

We have marriage around because it’s good for society, right? So, if it’s good for society that straight couples are incentivized to stay together, wouldn’t it be good for society to incentivize homosexual couples to stay together? With one group you’re reducing bastard children, with the other you’re reducing AIDs. Everybody wins, right?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

No, mine is a workable example, because in both the government is rewarding an action that is an intrinsic part of something, but those who wish to keep the benefit to themselves act as though the government is simply rewarding an action.

But you fail to explain what the rational basis is for rewarding Muslims for their behavior. You will struggle with this, and the reason is we, as a society, elevate matters of conscience above other kinds of issues.

We don’t believe that there is a rational basis for punishing someone for their religion, it is different from other classifications you try and compare it to - and that is why we enshrined it in our First Amendment to the exclusion of other classifications.
[/quote]

Regardless of the basis, you would be against it because the government would be rewarding muslims, or those willing to act like muslims.

Also, it wouldn’t be punishing anyone, it would just be selectively rewarding some.

We want to curb the adverse affects of infidelity and create stable environments for children to be raised in… these do not apply to the gay community?

I dont get the logic to discount gays with kids just because homosexuals don’t produce kids with each other.

Let me let you in on a little secret: a gay man isn’t going to marry a woman, because he’s GAY, any more than a christian is going to pray facing mecca five times a day. That you still repeat the “gay men can still get married” BS is tiresome.

I really don’t though, I’ve explained how gay marriage would be good for the public, in much the same way that het. marriage is.

I like the way that sounds. Het. Het. Go ahead, give it a try.

But it has nothing to do with being anything, it’s just a matter of what you DO! There is nothing stopping christians from doing the same thing muslims do! So what if muslims naturally engage in the rewarded behavior and christians have to go directly against their natural behavior… they have equal rights!

It’s funny that you see a reward for behavior that naturally follows being muslim to be a punishment for being christian, but don’t see a reward for behavior that naturally follows being heterosexual to be a punishment for being gay.

Right. And, in the real world here, I submit that homosexuals (or, more directly, those in homosexual relationships - who could be bisexuals) deserve equal rights, and want to elevate them to receive the benefits heterosexuals get.

I honestly dont follow your logic here… how does that prove that heterosexuals dont currently get government benefits?

[quote]

Homosexual relationships aren’t equal to heterosexual unions. That isn’t a naked insult - it is fact of nature and society. Society has much higher stake in preserving heterosexual unions for what should be obvious reasons: the ordering of child raising. Heterosexual unions simply matter more than all others because of their role and responsibilities.[/quote]

I disagree.

How about answering my fucking questions then? Dumb ass.

Thousands are pouring into Washington for the Hissy Fit of 2008.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
My point is that gay men are particularly “randy”. The stats that you’ve posted about heterosexual men don’t even come close to being as outrageous as what I’ve posted regarding gay men above.

The gay community does in fact have a problem but it’s not gay marriage, it’s gay fidelity.

The problem isn’t that they’re gay, it’s that they are MALE and have two parties in a relationship who have very high libidos. Fidelity on a males part isn’t a male idea, it’s a female one.

I agree they have an inherent problem which cannot be fixed. [/quote]

Well done on not reading my post.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Exactly. The only reason straight guys dont have near the same number of partners is because women say no more often.

You’ve given the reason but the reason does not change the fact.[/quote]

Can I buy some pot from you?

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

Exactly. The only reason straight guys dont have near the same number of partners is because women say no more often.

You’ve given the reason but the reason does not change the fact.

Can I buy some pot from you?

That explains why you cannot think clearly, you’re a drug user huh? Get some help.
[/quote]

“If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things through narrow chinks of his cavern.”

William Blake

[quote]forlife wrote:

How about answering my fucking questions then? Dumb ass.[/quote]

They’ve been answered, Forlife - many times over.

Here is the script you provide that we have come to enjoy and waste our time on:

(exchange of merits of gay marriage)

Forlife: “If you don’t agree with gay marriage, you are a bigot, filled with hate. You hate. And you are a bigot. You can’t be making a good faith argument against gay marriage - as such, you must hat gays and wish to harm them.”

Opponent: “I thought we were debating the merits of gay marriage, not attacking each other’s motives as acting in bad faith. I can criticize gay marriage and still be making a good faith argument. Plus, attacking my good faith is an ad hominem, which you screech about daily. What a waste of time - I am done.”

Forlife: “I win! You won’t answer my questions!! I win, I win, I win!! Daddy, look at me - I won!!”

I’ve tried explaining this to you before, that “answering questions” is lost on you because you believe every person who disagrees with you is only disagreeing with you because they have a deep-seeded hatred of gays.

You’re a joke, Forlife - live with it. You get your “questions answered” when you can sit at the big boy table and not act like a child.

I gave you answer after answer, and all you replied with was circular and repititive questions. Perfect example: I told you that I thought that between the competing social policies of incentivizing children to be born and raised to their biological parents and incentivizing gay couples to get married to raise kids outside the biological coupling, the former should win, and the latter should lose.

Yet you keep squealing that I “never answered that question!” - no, I did, you just disagree with my answer. That isn’t the same.

I hope there is some opportunity outside of an internet chat board for you to fulfill your quest of self-esteem improvement - around here, your posts are the cyber-equivalent of bird cage carpet.

In the black community, they say hiv is rising among black women…but guess where they get it from? Their down-low husbands and boyfriends. For those of u who aint familiar with down low, its a term in the black community thats used to describe men posing as heterosexuals, but living a secret homosexual lifestyle. The men get it from other men and pass it to their female partner.

My mom knows a woman who got hiv from her husband who was living a down low lifestyle. He eventually left her and went to live with his male lover, who probably gave him the virus. I truly believe they should go back to outlawing sodomy and strictly enforce it.