Gay Marriage Amendment

I must make amends for an earlier post in this thread. My good friend, Kofi Annan (who posts as Harris447, but fudges his numbers) told me I may have left myself open to a legal liability by implying that Vroom is a homosexual.

I assure you he is not.

I want to deeply apologize to all the noble gay people I may have offended by implying Vroom was one of your numbers. I have a deep respect for your ancient traditions of man-love and buggery.

So please do not hold a march outside of my trial in Baghdad, or give me problems after I sue the United States in civil court and get awarded California. We will have fun then. I will have tanks in the parades and, if you want, you can ride on the long, hard cannons of them and wave limp-wristedly to the crowds. Good times.

ALLAH AKBAR!

An interesting observation from UCLA con-law professor Eugene Volokh:

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_07_02-2006_07_08.shtml#1152223101

The U.S. Supreme Court and Same-Sex Marriage:

I’ve long (and publicly) opposed the Federal Marriage Amendment, because it unnecessarily interferes with states’ decisions about same-sex marriage.

Moreover, though I don’t think that the U.S. Supreme Court ought to interpret the U.S. Constitution as mandating recognition of same-sex marriages, I don’t see a need even for a narrow constitutional amendment that would preclude such an outcome – it just seems to me highly unlikely that the U.S. Supreme Court will reach such a decision, at least any time in the next few decades. (I support recognition of same-sex marriages for policy reasons, but I think it should be done through the political process, for many of the reasons that others have discussed at great length elsewhere.)

Likewise, unless I’m mistaken, this was a common argument of many defenders of Lawrence v. Texas and critics of the FMA: (1) There’s no real likelihood that the U.S. Supreme Court would mandate recognition of same-sex marriage any time soon. (2) People who are skeptical about the recognition of same-sex marriage thus need not be worried about the implications of Lawrence or eager to enact the FMA. (3) The same-sex marriage debate ought to just percolate at the state level, with no need for federal intervention through the amendment process and no real risk of federal intervention through a U.S. Supreme Court Goodridge-like decision.

Yet now Democratic National Committee chairman Howard Dean says this:

Statement by Howard Dean on the New York Court of Appeals Ruling on Same-Sex Marriage ...

[i] WASHINGTON, July 6 /U.S. Newswire/ – Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean today issued the following statement in response to the decision by the New York Court of Appeals that the state constitution does not guarantee the right to marriage for same-sex couples, but that the state legislature could provide this:

"As Democrats, we believe that every American has a right to equal protection under the law and to live in dignity. And we must respect the right of every family to live in dignity with equal rights, responsibilities and protections under the law. Today's decision by the New York Court of Appeals, which relies on outdated and bigoted notions about families, is deeply disappointing, but it does not end the effort to achieve this goal.

"As that essential process moves forward, it is up to the State legislature to act to protect the equal rights of every New Yorker and for the debate on how to ensure those rights to proceed without the rancor and divisiveness that too often surrounds this issue."[/i]

Does this mean that a Democratic President is likely to appoint Justices who would reject “outdated and bigoted” decisions such as the New York Court of Appeals’, and who would therefore interpret the U.S. Constitution the way Dean thinks the New York Constitution should have been interpreted – as “guarantee[ing] the right to marriage for same-sex couples”? Does it mean that the sitting Justices would be acting in an “outdated and bigoted” way by not interpreting the U.S. Constitution as mandating the recognition of same-sex marriage? Does Dean merely condemn the particular reasoning of the New York Court of Appeals, but accept the result? Or does Dean believe that the New York court’s interpretation of the New York Constitution was wrong, but the U.S. Supreme Court’s similar interpretation of the U.S. Constitution would be proper? (Such a theory is certainly possible, but I just wonder whether this is indeed Dean’s view.)

I realize that many people might welcome a Supreme Court decision mandating recognition of same-sex marriage. It justs seems to me contrary to the predictions that I’d heard from many sources about the unlikelihood that the U.S. Supreme Court would take such a view.

Zeb,

If the information that Maxx has posted about one of the contributors to the site you quote is true, then you need to seriously consider the credibility of the site itself and any other’s that will quote such material.

Honestly, we’ve talked about this issue before - the blind eye towards skewed research to support a stance, if someone is willing to quote such sources to support their viewpoint then their own credibility is very suspect.

Can you still claim ignorance? Will you avoid looking deeper? Are you interested in truth or a certain result? What about the people willing to use any supporting source, what is their real interest?

How will you answer for the spread of deliberate mistruths, if that is what they are? How will they? The ice is getting pretty thin isn’t it?

Again, I don’t have the answers to the debate, but that’s not what I’m addressing. Give it some thought… I think you’ll see what I mean.

How Christian is a group that is willingly spreading mistruths? I know people mean well, but often they let their feelings dictate their actions, which can put them at odds with their own professed beliefs.

Who will answer for it? Who is suffering for it? Causing such suffering is not caring for your fellow man, is it?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
An interesting observation from UCLA con-law professor Eugene Volokh:
[/quote]

Sigh, wouldn’t it be nice if you actually had your own thoughts?

Why don’t you change your name to Eugene Volokh and then you’d have something to say for yourself from time to time.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
An interesting observation from UCLA con-law professor Eugene Volokh:

vroom wrote:
Sigh, wouldn’t it be nice if you actually had your own thoughts?

Why don’t you change your name to Eugene Volokh and then you’d have something to say for yourself from time to time.[/quote]

I think just fine for myself, but I’m a combination of lazy and busy. But really, I’d rather post coherent, on-topic points, even if I didn’t write them myself, than to blather on ridiculously as you manage to do on most topics.

How’s this:

How would you go about convincing people who do not wish to see the USSC re-write the Constitution to include a right to gay marriage (surely existing somewhere among the “emanations and penumbras”) to believe that 1) The Court would generally refrain from doing so and; 2) That the advocates of gay marriage wouldn’t keep pressing for a court-mandated change. Especially in light of one party – the Democrats – having a history of trying to remove contentious political debates to the courts (see, e.g., abortion), and with the nominal head of the Democratic Party seeming to promise an outcome-based selection of justices in the future based on exactly that outcome?

Such convincing would be the only clear argument against an amendment to the Constitution for those whose main fear is such an imposition by the USSC.

It wouldn’t convince someone who wanted to cement the current electoral advantage in place forever (or until the opposition could mount an equal supermajority to delete the amendment, a la prohibition), but I think the majority of the motivation for an amendment stems from fear of an activist court.

It’s only a matter of time before we stop caring about whether people are gay or not.

One way the other, whether an amendment is passed and then later repealed, it is going to happen.

I’m sorry, but there is simply no perfect forever solution that allows current right wing thinking to be imposed across all time, unless we abort the entire premise of the constitution.

Get over it.

P.S. It’s a lot more interesting to read something you posted… even if it does require a bit more effort on your behalf. Work on your insults though!

[quote]vroom wrote:
It’s only a matter of time before we stop caring about whether people are gay or not.

One way the other, whether an amendment is passed and then later repealed, it is going to happen.

I’m sorry, but there is simply no perfect forever solution that allows current right wing thinking to be imposed across all time, unless we abort the entire premise of the constitution.

Get over it.

P.S. It’s a lot more interesting to read something you posted… even if it does require a bit more effort on your behalf. Work on your insults though![/quote]

I’m glad you managed to write this all by yourself – now would you mind addressing my point instead of going off on some pontification of your own?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I’m glad you managed to write this all by yourself – now would you mind addressing my point instead of going off on some pontification of your own?[/quote]

LOL.

Given what I wrote, and the inevitable nature of the conclusion, I don’t see value in trying to impose the right wing viewpoint in the short term.

The points are related, if you can pull your head out of your ass long enough to think about something other than Volokh’s opinion on things.

The world is flexible. Things change over time. The real question is why do people find it necessary to invest so much time and effort into issues that appear to have no effect upon them, simply because they approve or disapprove of the lawful behavior of others?

However, I am straying away from the topic, which really died along with the amendment attempt anyway. I’d suggest focusing your right wing hatred on another horse, this one is dead.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I’m glad you managed to write this all by yourself – now would you mind addressing my point instead of going off on some pontification of your own?

vroom wrote:
LOL.

Given what I wrote, and the inevitable nature of the conclusion, I don’t see value in trying to impose the right wing viewpoint in the short term.

The points are related, if you can pull your head out of your ass long enough to think about something other than Volokh’s opinion on things.

The world is flexible. Things change over time. The real question is why do people find it necessary to invest so much time and effort into issues that appear to have no effect upon them, simply because they approve or disapprove of the lawful behavior of others?

However, I am straying away from the topic, which really died along with the amendment attempt anyway. I’d suggest focusing your right wing hatred on another horse, this one is dead.[/quote]

For someone who is so against C02 emissions, you sure do spout a lot of hot air without ever addressing the question posed.

I was sad to see the Gay Marriage Amendment die. I do question the timing of such an amendment. I would think that the focus should be on national security, illegal immigration or something more pressing. A question for those that support gay marriage; if you can redefine marriage once what keeps you from doing it again? Where do you draw the line? I don?t hate gays. I just don?t support their life style.

Me Solomon Grundy

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
For someone who is so against C02 emissions, you sure do spout a lot of hot air without ever addressing the question posed.[/quote]

Har har har… move over Dave Chappelle!

[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Where do you draw the line? I don?t hate gays. I just don?t support their life style.

Me Solomon Grundy
[/quote]

No no no…if you don’t support their lifestyle and agree to gay “marriage” that means that you automatically hate them.

It’s a PC law.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
Where do you draw the line? I don?t hate gays. I just don?t support their life style.

Me Solomon Grundy

No no no…if you don’t support their lifestyle and agree to gay “marriage” that means that you automatically hate them.

It’s a PC law.[/quote]

…Oh God! I’m a Hater!

Me Solomon Grundy

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
Where do you draw the line? I don?t hate gays. I just don?t support their life style.

Me Solomon Grundy

No no no…if you don’t support their lifestyle and agree to gay “marriage” that means that you automatically hate them.

It’s a PC law.[/quote]

No, it means that intelligent people see that the phrase, “I dont support their lifestyle,” as code for, “I wish queers would just go away.”

Try substituting the word “jew” for “gay” and you see how it sounds.

[quote]harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
Where do you draw the line? I don?t hate gays. I just don?t support their life style.

Me Solomon Grundy

No no no…if you don’t support their lifestyle and agree to gay “marriage” that means that you automatically hate them.

It’s a PC law.

No, it means that intelligent people see that the phrase, “I dont support their lifestyle,” as code for, “I wish queers would just go away.”

Try substituting the word “jew” for “gay” and you see how it sounds.

[/quote]

No, it’s not even remotely similar. The constant attempt for those on your side of the fence on this issue to equate homosexuals to blacks or other minority groups is not valid.

As you know (hopefully) there is a true genetic difference regarding race and those of other ethnic backgrounds. Not so with homosexuals regardless of the constant lie, “we are born that way.”

Also keep this in mind: Not wanting to change a 5000+ year old institution so that two people of the same sex can marry has nothing to do with hatred harris.

No it’s not at all about hatred. It’s about societal norms. As many have previously stated, where do we draw the line with marriage rights?

Polygamists?

Those who practice incest?

I say we leave it right where it is so that it is clear to all sorts of “different” people that marriage is for one man and one woman.

[quote]harris447 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
Where do you draw the line? I don?t hate gays. I just don?t support their life style.

Me Solomon Grundy

No no no…if you don’t support their lifestyle and agree to gay “marriage” that means that you automatically hate them.

It’s a PC law.

No, it means that intelligent people see that the phrase, “I dont support their lifestyle,” as code for, “I wish queers would just go away.”

Try substituting the word “jew” for “gay” and you see how it sounds.

[/quote]

What if they are a gay Jew? In all seriousness race or ethnicity is not a choice. People are born to some ethnic group and I don?t believe that homosexuals are born that way. I?m sure that if my first statement doesn?t get any hate mail my last statement will. It may not be PC, but I don?t have to be PC. There are a number of guys that I work with and go to school with that are gay and I don?t treat them any different. We have already had this same discussion (at school) and they are surprised that I still want to be in the same study group and get a bite to eat with them. It doesn?t change my opinion.

Me Solomon Grundy

I don’t understand that line of reasoning. How can someone “become” gay? Is there a training course? I don’t know about you, but there’s no way in Hell I could ever fuck a man. The simple thought of it feels repulsive to me, and more to the point, I couldn’t get an erection to begin with.

The only way I can understand someone thinking that being gay is not the way you’re born is that they’re gay or bi themselves but have been repressing it their whole life. So, for them, “becoming” gay is entirely plausible because they already are gay, but won’t admit it; maybe even to themselves.

Since they think that’s what being “straight” is; they imagine everyone else to be similar to themselves; hence they believe that anyone can simply “choose” to be gay by acting on the impulse that they (but not actually everyone) have.

If you’re really straight, the thought of “choosing to become gay” is simply ridiculous.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Solomon Grundy I don’t believe that homosexuals are born that way.

I don’t understand that line of reasoning. How can someone “become” gay? Is there a training course? I don’t know about you, but there’s no way in Hell I could ever fuck a man. The simple thought of it feels repulsive to me, and more to the point, I couldn’t get an erection to begin with.

The only way I can understand someone thinking that being gay is not the way you’re born is that they’re gay or bi themselves but have been repressing it their whole life. So, for them, “becoming” gay is entirely plausible because they already are gay, but won’t admit it; maybe even to themselves.

Since they think that’s what being “straight” is; they imagine everyone else to be similar to themselves; hence they believe that anyone can simply “choose” to be gay by acting on the impulse that they (but not actually everyone) have.

If you’re really straight, the thought of “choosing to become gay” is simply ridiculous.
[/quote]

If a person believes that they are born that way then they don?t have to take responsibility for their actions or lack there of. I?m not saying that people choose to be gay. I?m saying that something happens to them that cause them to be attracted to the same sex. The danger here is taking something that is abnormal and making everyone believe that is normal or a disease/ illness. This makes them think that there is nothing wrong with them. I don?t think that people choose to be gay. I do think that they choose to stay that way because it is easier.

Me Solomon Grundy

Presumably you think that they could choose to “revert” to being normal?

Whether the “something” that makes them gay happens before birth or after is of little importance.

The point is that at some point, through no choice of their own, they are attracted to people of the same sex. Are we in agreement up to this point?

Where we differ is that you seem to think that they can simply “refuse” the urges and lead a normal, straight life. To me, that makes as much sense as someone straight saying that he could “refuse” to be attracted by women and force himself to sleep with men even if it’s “harder” or more work on his part. It simply makes no sense.

Again, I wonder how that can make sense to you, unless sleeping with men or women is, in your case, a choice similar to choosing between chocolate or vanilla ice cream for dessert. In other words, either choice is equally possible with no biological urges stronger than a slight whim, or some adopted moral code, guiding your personal preference.

Very off topic, but I don’t think they’ve really determined what causes homosexuality (that is, the predilection for a sexual attraction to one’s own gender, not homosexual activity) yet, though they’re coming up with some excellent theories - and there are a lot of not-so-excellent ones as well. I’m going to paraphrase a summary of the reasearch that I’ve found.

I can list a few theories that I have heard or seen written up at one time or another. In very approximate order of scientific respectability, as best I can judge it, the theories are:

(1) Satan. Homosexuality may be a manifestation of Satan’s work. While the least scientific of current theories, this one is probably the most widely believed, taking the world at large. Most devout Muslims, for example, believe it, and so do many Christians.

(2) Social Construction. There is no such thing as homosexuality. There are only heterosexual and homosexual acts, which different cultures regard differently. The notion of “homosexuality” as a personality attribute is a 19th-century invention.

(3) Brain damage. Some insult to the tissues of the brain, perhaps at birth or in infancy, causes homosexuality.

(4) Choice. People choose to prefer their own sex over the other.

(5) Family influences in childhood. The Freudian belief is that having a weak father and/or dominant mother can form the child’s personality in the direction of homosexuality.

(6) Social stress. Rats kept in overpopulated environments, even when sufficient food and access to females are available, will become aggressively homosexual after the stress in the environment rises above a certain level.

(7) Imprinting. The individual’s early sexual history can “imprint” certain tendencies on animals and humans. Many homosexuals report having been same-sexually molested in childhood or youth.

(8) Socialization theories. The high levels of homosexual bonding in some ancient and primitive societies suggests that the common mores of a culture have some power to socialize large numbers of people into homosexuality.

(9) Genetics, direct. Homosexuality is the expression of some gene, or some combination of genes.

(10) Womb environment ? too much of a good thing. The presence of certain hormone imbalances during critical periods of gestation can have the effect of hyper-masculinizing the brain of a male infant. Paradoxically ? there are plausible biological arguments ? this might lead to the infant becoming homosexual.

(11) Infection. Homosexuality may be caused by an infectious agent ? a germ or a virus. This is the Cochran/Ewald theory, which made a cover story for the February 1999 Atlantic Monthly.

(12) Genetics, indirect. Homosexuality may be an undesirable (from the evolutionary point of view) side effect of some genetic defense against a disease ? analogous to the sickle-cell anemia mutation, a by-product of genetic defenses against malaria, negative to the organism but nothing like as negative, net-net, as susceptibility to malaria.

(13) Womb environment ? too much of the wrong thing. Here the effect of the rogue hormones is to feminize the brain of a male infant. (I assume that there are theories corresponding to 10 and 13 for female infants, though I have never seen them documented - which actually calls into question whether differing mechanisms might cause male and female homosexuality) This is the one that made a splash the other day: BBC NEWS | Health | Womb environment 'makes men gay'

Note that theories number 9, 10, 12, 13, and conditionally (depending on the age at injury or infection) 3 and 11, could all be taken as saying that homosexuality is “inborn,” while only two of these six theories have anything to do with genetics. The confusion between “genetic” and “inborn” is epidemic among the general public, however, to the despair of those attempting to have a more nuanced discussion of the topic.

In the current state of our understanding, I don’t believe that anyone can say for sure what’s true – but, noting the link above, number 13 seems to be the front runner. I think that numbers 12 and 13 currently hold the strongest positions, with much, though I think declining, interest and research in 9 and 10, modest but growing interest in 11, and some lingering residual attachment to 6, 7, and 8.

The other theories are not taken seriously by anyone doing genuine scientific research. If anyone has information to the contrary written up in a respectable peer-reviewed journal of the human sciences, it would be new to me and something I might like to read (at least the summary).