Gay Marriage Amendment

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
On the non-legal and non-religious side, this is interesting:

Marriage - considered as a legally sanctioned union of one man and one woman - plays a vital role in preserving the common good and promoting the welfare of children. In virtually every known human society, the institution of marriage provides order and meaning to adult sexual relationships and, more fundamentally, furnishes the ideal context for the bearing and rearing of the young. The health of marriage is particularly important in a free society such as our own, which depends upon citizens to govern their private lives and rear their children responsibly, so as to limit the scope, size, and power of the state. Marriage is also an important source of social, human, and financial capital for children, especially for children growing up in poor, disadvantaged communities who do not have ready access to other sources of such capital. Thus, from the point of view of spouses, children, society, and the polity, marriage advances the public interest.
[/quote]
Boston, I know what you are getting at with this but these statements are speculation at best. To say that a convention such as legally defined marriage provides order and meaning is nonsensical. This is like saying unwed mothers cannot provide for their children. Also this article does not explain how the traditional marriage “plays a vital role in preserving the common good and promoting the welfare of children” verses a non-traditional marriage. At best it states what the ideal should be but does not even address how it is supposedly better than alternative ideas.

What this article is trying to claim is exactly what needs to be challenged–we cannot live in a society that would try to assert certain conventions via a “pseudo-religious” argument disguised as a sociological one.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
So then where in the constitution does congress have the right to legislate certain matters and not marriage? Who decides what the states will decide and what the fed will decide?
[/quote]

I take it you have not read the Constitution of the United States of America.

But since you asked, here are some relevant sections:

And the tenth amendment:

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
vroom wrote:
The politics of this are pretty amazing… and let’s keep this thread to the POLITICS of the issue, not the religious viewpoint.

However, that said, the politics of mixing religion into the constitution if you feel that is what is taking place is appropriate.

Personally, I think there is a limit to the number of times you can raise the threat level and get people to care, if you know what I’m saying.

I, in no way, agree with gay marriage, but I don’t believe it is a federal issue. The States should be the ones to decide. The Evil Empire we call British Columbia has way too much power. We need to bring back more State autonomy.
[/quote]

Exactly. This is how the Constitution is supposed to work in the first place. We need less Fed involvement in our lives. Ask anyone near NOLA.

HH

[quote]nihil wrote:
Honestly, this is something I don’t understand: If marriage rates are around 50%, isn’t that, by definition, a failed institution?

Your religion won’t let gays get married?: fine with me. But why the animosity for same sex couples? There are a great deal of congressmen/women who are divorced…does this not detail the futility of marriage, as a political insitution?[/quote]

Nihil,

Why does the fact that many people cannot follow or honor marriage as it was designed mean it is failed? Does that also mean that since some people cannot follow the law of not murdering someone that that law is failed as well? Should we than say; hey, it can’t be followed so lets just make murder legal.

Sorry Bro, I don’t think the validity of marriage is determined by whether or not people can follow it correctly.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I take it you have not read the Constitution of the United States of America.
[/quote]
Some of us laypeople are busy memorizing other useful stuff. And, yes i read it many years ago and was thoroughly bored with it…the ending sucked.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
And the tenth amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
[/quote]
So does that mean that the people can decide wheter or not to make it a state issue?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
So does that mean that the people can decide wheter or not to make it a state issue?
[/quote]

Check with BB or another qualified person, but I believe that it means that:

A) If the people (through their state or local legislatures) choose to make it a legislative issue, they can

and

B) Rights exist even if they are not expressly delineated in the Bill of Rights. You have a right to breathe, for example, despite the fact that it is not listed in the Bill of Rights.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
nephorm wrote:
I take it you have not read the Constitution of the United States of America.

Some of us laypeople are busy memorizing other useful stuff. And, yes i read it many years ago and was thoroughly bored with it…the ending sucked.
[/quote]

I’m sure you are. But in that case, why would you argue about federalism or states’ rights? You made comments that showed you really didn’t have any understanding of what federalism was supposed to mean. I’m not trying to insult you, but your conceptual difficulty could’ve been cleared up with a five minute refresher-read of the Constitution… or a good civics class.

Speaking of this topic, Op-Ed piece from the Washington Post

[i]Distracter in Chief
Spinning Phony Crises to Avoid Real Ones

By Eugene Robinson
Tuesday, June 6, 2006; Page A15

What uncharted realm lies beyond brazen cynicism? A wasteland of utter shamelessness, perhaps? A vast Sahara of desperation, where principle goes to die? Someday George W. Bush and the Republican right will be able to tell us all about this barren terra incognita, assuming they ever find their way home.

The Decider’s decision to whip up a phony crisis over same-sex marriage – Values under attack! Run for your lives! – is such a transparent ploy that even conservatives are scratching their heads, wondering if this is the best Karl Rove could come up with. Bush might as well open his next presidential address by giving himself a new title: The Distracter.

Let’s check in on what’s happening in the real world…[/i]

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
Speaking of this topic, Op-Ed piece from the Washington Post

[i]Distracter in Chief
Spinning Phony Crises to Avoid Real Ones

By Eugene Robinson
Tuesday, June 6, 2006; Page A15

What uncharted realm lies beyond brazen cynicism? A wasteland of utter shamelessness, perhaps? A vast Sahara of desperation, where principle goes to die? Someday George W. Bush and the Republican right will be able to tell us all about this barren terra incognita, assuming they ever find their way home.

The Decider’s decision to whip up a phony crisis over same-sex marriage – Values under attack! Run for your lives! – is such a transparent ploy that even conservatives are scratching their heads, wondering if this is the best Karl Rove could come up with. Bush might as well open his next presidential address by giving himself a new title: The Distracter.

Let’s check in on what’s happening in the real world…[/i]

[/quote]

He really shouldn’t build an op-ed column directly from a list of Harry Reid talking points…

http://reid.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=256499&&year=2006&

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
Speaking of this topic, Op-Ed piece from the Washington Post

[i]Distracter in Chief
Spinning Phony Crises to Avoid Real Ones

By Eugene Robinson
Tuesday, June 6, 2006; Page A15

What uncharted realm lies beyond brazen cynicism? A wasteland of utter shamelessness, perhaps? A vast Sahara of desperation, where principle goes to die? Someday George W. Bush and the Republican right will be able to tell us all about this barren terra incognita, assuming they ever find their way home.

The Decider’s decision to whip up a phony crisis over same-sex marriage – Values under attack! Run for your lives! – is such a transparent ploy that even conservatives are scratching their heads, wondering if this is the best Karl Rove could come up with. Bush might as well open his next presidential address by giving himself a new title: The Distracter.

Let’s check in on what’s happening in the real world…[/i]

He really shouldn’t build an op-ed column directly from a list of Harry Reid talking points…

http://reid.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=256499&&year=2006&[/quote]

Why is it that whenever there is criticism aimed at this administration, it gets trivialized as “talking points” but if there is media whore praise heaped on this administration, it is not trivialized as “talking points”? Also, just because you classify them as “talking points” does it make them any less true?

The phrase “talking points” has become nothing more than another code phrase for the extreme right in an attempt to trivialize issues that they don’t want to recognize or do anything about.

They hope that by trivializing it and ignoring it that it will go away. Why don’t they all just stick their fingers in their ears and say “La la la, I’m not listening to you!”

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
He really shouldn’t build an op-ed column directly from a list of Harry Reid talking points…

http://reid.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=256499&&year=2006&[/quote]

Whether he did or not doesn’t really change the fact that he (or they) are absolutely right. There are a whole lot of very important issues that Congress could be dealing with. Same sex marriage and constitutional bigotry don’t rise to that level.

[quote]tme wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
He really shouldn’t build an op-ed column directly from a list of Harry Reid talking points…

http://reid.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=256499&&year=2006&

Whether he did or not doesn’t really change the fact that he (or they) are absolutely right. There are a whole lot of very important issues that Congress could be dealing with. Same sex marriage and constitutional bigotry don’t rise to that level.

[/quote]

I generally agree, though I have a feeling we’d likely disagree on what, if any, action should be taken on the more important items…

Actually, I was referring to this guy’s journalistic integrity, not dismissing any critique of the amendment.

The problem with this line of argument, generally, is that it’s just changing the subject and not criticizing the point at hand. There are good arguments against the amendment – see above.

But if you want to see “talking points” used as an argument technique, look up most of vroom’s posts – I don’t think they were aimed at criticizing critiques of the administration though…

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I’m sure you are. But in that case, why would you argue about federalism or states’ rights? You made comments that showed you really didn’t have any understanding of what federalism was supposed to mean. I’m not trying to insult you, but your conceptual difficulty could’ve been cleared up with a five minute refresher-read of the Constitution… or a good civics class.
[/quote]
I didn’t take it as an insult, just stating that the constitution is a foreign document to me just as I am sure quantum mechanics is foreign to others. I do understand the concept of Federalism but I wasn’t sure where the line was drawn between states verses federal rights. To me the way the constitution reads–not being a legal scholar–that every issue is a state issue in one form or another. But in the case of discrimination as in many other cases involving discrimination the fed should be able to exert its authority–EEO is not a state option is it? Is it not a federal law that states I cannot be asked certain questions whereby negative inferences might be made about me during a job interview?

The federal govenment has quite a bit of lee-way when legislating to the people.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

I generally agree, though I have a feeling we’d likely disagree on what, if any, action should be taken on the more important items…[/quote]

Yeah, good point. Although we’re probably closer on some of them than you’d think.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:

A judge is only activist when they don’t side with the flame thrower’s ideals.

Both the left and right cry about the same thing.

It just so happens to have gone against the right more than they would like over the last century.

Go figure.[/quote]

No, a judge is activist when he or she makes up legislation from the bench rather than sticking to the job of deciding a case/controversy by interpreting the law as it exists. This includes, but is not limited to, reading things in to the Constitution that are not there (see Roe v Wade) or crafting specific policy solutions and proscriptions of behavior rather than leaving that to the legislature (See Miranda v Arizona).

[quote]
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
So does that mean that the people can decide wheter or not to make it a state issue?

nephorm wrote:
Check with BB or another qualified person, but I believe that it means that:

A) If the people (through their state or local legislatures) choose to make it a legislative issue, they can

and

B) Rights exist even if they are not expressly delineated in the Bill of Rights. You have a right to breathe, for example, despite the fact that it is not listed in the Bill of Rights.[/quote]

I’d say that’s right – though A) is a lot stronger than B). B’s great in theory, but in practice the Courts have essentially rendered it null by refusing to accept it as the basis to challenge any particular exercise of governmental power, particularly by the federal legislature.

First of all,

Nephorm,

Thanks - good stuff.

Lifticus,

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I didn’t take it as an insult, just stating that the constitution is a foreign document to me just as I am sure quantum mechanics is foreign to others. I do understand the concept of Federalism but I wasn’t sure where the line was drawn between states verses federal rights. [/quote]

Well, earlier you were talking about ‘poking holes in the logic’ - now you are admitting you have no idea how it works.

To be fair, you really should get a grasp on the concept of federalism since this is one of the main issues regarding gay marriage. The federal government was always a government of enumerated and limited powers - and defining marriage nationally is not among the powers granted by the Constitution, no matter how hard you stretch it.

Part of your problem is that you assume away the question of whether or not not having gay marriage is discriminatory. That is a question that is debated and to be frank, there isn’t a compelling case that it is ‘discrimination’.

As for workplace discrimination, Title VII explicitly leaves out sexual orientation as a protected category - gay rights activists have tried getting added for years.

Quite, but it is not unlimited.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
To be fair, you really should get a grasp on the concept of federalism since this is one of the main issues regarding gay marriage. The federal government was always a government of enumerated and limited powers - and defining marriage nationally is not among the powers granted by the Constitution, no matter how hard you stretch it.
[/quote]
Quite so, though, I still think I would be in disagreement with any law, amendment or definition that would implicitly or explictly state that certain persons can not take part in certain institutions becauue it is defined in such a way that deems it illegal. To me, states should not have the right to make such laws.

Could gay people take part in such an institutions whereby they could gain the same rights afforeded to straight people–we could even change the instituion to a differnet name so as not to offend the bible bangers? It doesn’t matter as long as they are afforded the same rights. Let’s call it ‘bondage’ instead of marriage.