Gay Adoption?

@ ironcross :

i was merely joking, playing with the limits of our categories and semantics.

on a more serious note, my world and Tiribulus’s book have a lot of thing in common.

in my world, there is no heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual people. Nothing that simple and reassuring.

there is only fetishists, voyeurs, exhibitionnists, submisive and dominatrixes, BDSM adepts, onanists, hysterics, people who play a female night elf on a world of warcraft server, guitarists who play country music, and a myriad of other deviants.

Sinners who take countless forms and shapes.
people who make strong emotionnal judgements about the sexuality of other people included.

[quote]kamui wrote:
@ ironcross :

i was merely joking, playing with the limits of our categories and semantics.

on a more serious note, my world and Tiribulus’s book have a lot of thing in common.

in my world, there is no heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual people. Nothing that simple and reassuring.

there is only fetishists, voyeurs, exhibitionnists, submisive and dominatrixes, BDSM adepts, onanists, hysterics, people who play a female night elf on a world of warcraft server, guitarists who play country music, and a myriad of other deviants.

Sinners who take countless forms and shapes.
people who make strong emotionnal judgements about the sexuality of other people included.[/quote]

lol. I wasn’t sure from your tone.

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right, and if you want to learn about evolution you’d go to answersingenesis.org, right?[/quote]
If I wanted to learn what was wrong with evolution, I might go there. Where would you go if you wanted to find out what was wrong with evolution? What’s your point anyway?
[/quote]

If you want to have your bias confirmed you’d go to a site that does exactly that, confirm your bias.[/quote]
Why does going to a place that I know will list a different view confirm my bias? I may be going there precisely because I have no bias and just want to look at an opposing view. Can I go to a pro-evolution website and get the same info?[/quote]

Are you saying you have no opinion on gay adoption/marriage/issues regarding whether homosexuality is innate or a choice?

Are you saying you are looking for education on these matters?
[/quote]

Of course he’s not looking for education, which is why I didn’t bother reposting for him the research I’ve been posting for years. If he were objective enough to consider the facts, he would listen to what every major medical and mental health organization has concluded, based on 40 years of research.

Obviously, he’s not biased at all. The American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, National Association of Social Workers, and every other major health organization must be biased because they disagree with him.
[/quote]
You’re back to chime in again huh forlife? I thought it wasn’t worth the effort. And another reference to those powerfully convincing studies. What was that URL again?

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right, and if you want to learn about evolution you’d go to answersingenesis.org, right?[/quote]
If I wanted to learn what was wrong with evolution, I might go there. Where would you go if you wanted to find out what was wrong with evolution? What’s your point anyway?
[/quote]

If you want to have your bias confirmed you’d go to a site that does exactly that, confirm your bias.[/quote]
Why does going to a place that I know will list a different view confirm my bias? I may be going there precisely because I have no bias and just want to look at an opposing view. Can I go to a pro-evolution website and get the same info?[/quote]

Are you saying you have no opinion on gay adoption/marriage/issues regarding whether homosexuality is innate or a choice?

Are you saying you are looking for education on these matters?
[/quote]
First you answer my questions, then I’ll answer yours. It’s how us mature people have a discussion.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

If you want to have your bias confirmed you’d go to a site that does exactly that, confirm your bias.
Why does going to a place that I know will list a different view confirm my bias? I may be going there precisely because I have no bias and just want to look at an opposing view. Can I go to a pro-evolution website and get the same info?

Are you saying you have no opinion on gay adoption/marriage/issues regarding whether homosexuality is innate or a choice?

Are you saying you are looking for education on these matter

First you answer my questions, then I’ll answer yours. It’s how us mature people have a discussion.[/quote]

I can’t answer your first question because I don’t know your preferences, but looking at your posts in this thread I can only assume you’d look for info on sites affiliated with religion that falsely claim that homosexuality is a choice or that you can be “cured” from homosexuality.

Your last question is ambiguous; information about what exactly?

So, are you ready to answer my questions now?

[quote]Sterneneisen wrote:

No. Nope. Never.

Keep the perversions out of the lives of children; keep it in the gay bars and sicko clubs. Kids got enough issues without having two daddies or two mommies.

Just…no…

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

If you want to have your bias confirmed you’d go to a site that does exactly that, confirm your bias.
Why does going to a place that I know will list a different view confirm my bias? I may be going there precisely because I have no bias and just want to look at an opposing view. Can I go to a pro-evolution website and get the same info?

Are you saying you have no opinion on gay adoption/marriage/issues regarding whether homosexuality is innate or a choice?

Are you saying you are looking for education on these matter

First you answer my questions, then I’ll answer yours. It’s how us mature people have a discussion.[/quote]

I can’t answer your first question because I don’t know your preferences, but looking at your posts in this thread I can only assume you’d look for info on sites affiliated with religion that falsely claim that homosexuality is a choice or that you can be “cured” from homosexuality.

Your last question is ambiguous; information about what exactly?

So, are you ready to answer my questions now?[/quote]

You don’t need to know my preference to answer my first question, and that would be part of my point. But, the question was rhetorical, so I’ll let you off. I’ll rephrase- I may go to a certain site because of a bias, but I may by looking for new information precisely because I am not bias. The fact alone of my going to any certain site does not at all indicate what reason I go there.

But we are getting off track from my original comment and your response-

Since some on this thread don’t accept Masters and Johnson, I simply listed a few websites that show someone can leave the homo lifestyle. These sites give examples of those who have left and you can read their personal testimonies. You suggested my putting up these links showed bias. It does obviously show I believe a person can leave the homo lifestyle. If you want to refute that position, you must refute the personal testimony of those who have already done it. You can criticize their religion if you want, but in the end that would be irrelevant, because in the end, they are still living a hetero lifestyle.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Right, and if you want to learn about evolution you’d go to answersingenesis.org, right?[/quote]
If I wanted to learn what was wrong with evolution, I might go there. Where would you go if you wanted to find out what was wrong with evolution? What’s your point anyway?
[/quote]

If you want to have your bias confirmed you’d go to a site that does exactly that, confirm your bias.[/quote]
Why does going to a place that I know will list a different view confirm my bias? I may be going there precisely because I have no bias and just want to look at an opposing view. Can I go to a pro-evolution website and get the same info?[/quote]

Are you saying you have no opinion on gay adoption/marriage/issues regarding whether homosexuality is innate or a choice?

Are you saying you are looking for education on these matters?
[/quote]

Of course he’s not looking for education, which is why I didn’t bother reposting for him the research I’ve been posting for years. If he were objective enough to consider the facts, he would listen to what every major medical and mental health organization has concluded, based on 40 years of research.

Obviously, he’s not biased at all. The American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, National Association of Social Workers, and every other major health organization must be biased because they disagree with him.
[/quote]
You’re back to chime in again huh forlife? I thought it wasn’t worth the effort. And another reference to those powerfully convincing studies. What was that URL again? [/quote]

This should get you started. No doubt you consider yourself such an expert that your reading of the research trumps anything the major health organizations say, and clearly your personal disgust at homosexuality has no bearing on your opinions. Feel free to dismiss their consensual conclusions based on 40 years of research, like the bigots always do. I have no desire to change your opinion, and am under no illusion that any amount of evidence would ever convince you to do so.

The health organizations have actually designed, conducted, and drawn
conclusions from 40 years of research on homosexuality. And those
organizations unanimously and unequivocally say YOU ARE WRONG.

Either every single one of these organizations is dishonest,
politically corrupt, and not truly committed to public health…or
your “information” about gays is wrong. I’m placing my bet on the
American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, and
every other major health organization.

Several leading medical and mental health organizations developed and
endorsed “Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer
for Principals, Educators and School Personnel” in 1999. According to
that document:

[quote]The most important fact about ‘reparative therapy,’ also
sometimes known as ‘conversion’ therapy, is that it is based on an
understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major
health and mental health professions. The American Academy of
Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American
Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the
National Association of School Psychologists, and the National
Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000
health and mental health professionals, [b]have all taken the position
that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no
need for a ‘cure.’…

No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are
effective, and in fact they may be harmful[/b][/quote]

The American Academy of Pediatrics in its policy statement on
Homosexuality and Adolescence states:

[quote]Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is
contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while
having little or no potential for achieving changes in
orientation.
[/quote]

According to the American Medical Association:

[quote]Most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and
lesbians around their sexual identity is not based on physiological
causes but rather is due more to a sense of alienation in an
un-accepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy is no
longer recommended for gay men and lesbians.
[/quote]

American Psychological Association:

[quote]Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?
No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual
orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any
prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our
feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a
conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?
No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some
homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual
orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of
family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is
that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment
and is not changeable.
[/quote]

National Association of Social Workers:

[quote]Social stigmatization of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people is
widespread and is a primary motivating factor in leading some people
to seek sexual orientation changes. Sexual orientation conversion
therapies assume that homosexual orientation is both pathological and
freely chosen.

The increase in media campaigns, often coupled with coercive messages
from family and community members, has created an environment in which
[b]lesbians and gay men often are pressured to seek reparative or
conversion therapies, which cannot and will not change sexual
orientation.

No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are
effective, and in fact they may be harmful.[/b] [/quote]

From the Wikipedia on reparative therapy:

[quote]In 2001, Dr. Ariel Shidlo and Dr. Michael Schroeder found that
88% of participants in reparative therapy failed to achieve a
sustained change in their sexual behavior and 3% reported changing
their orientation to heterosexual. The remainder reported either
losing all sexual drive or struggling to remain celibate. Schroeder
said many of the participants who failed felt a sense of shame. Many
had gone through reparative therapy programs over the course of many
years. Of the 8 respondents (out of a sample of 202) who reported a
change in sexual orientation, 7 were employed in paid or unpaid roles
as ‘ex-gay’ counsellors or group leaders, something which has led many
to question whether even this small ‘success’ rate is in fact
reliable.

Schroeder and Shidlo found that the large majority of respondents
reported being left in a poor mental and emotional state after the
therapy, and that rates of depression, anxiety, alcohol and drug abuse
and suicidal feelings were roughly doubled in those who underwent
reparative therapy
.[/quote]

In 1998-MAR, the Governing Council of the American Counseling
Association (ACA) approved a motion that the association:

[quote]…opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and
adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation
; and supports
the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation,
mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract
bias that is based in ignorance or unfounded beliefs about same-gender
orientation.[/quote]

The Surgeon General’s Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and
Responsible Sexual Behavior (2001) asserts that homosexuality is
not “a reversible lifestyle choice.”

While it is true that high risk sexual behaviors are a significant
problem for some gay men in this country (not so much for lesbians),
the conclusions that homophobes draw from this are factually
incorrect, and in fact contribute to the problem. I will
reiterate, because this is important:

Telling people to change their sexual orientation does NOT solve
any of these issues, and in fact makes them WORSE.

The CDC is well aware of these high risk behaviors among a segment of
the gay male population, but their solution is not for men to stop
being gay. It is for gay men to practice safe sex, in an
environment and culture that accepts them for who they are
.

For the record, here is what the CDC has to say:

[quote]Homophobia, stigma, and discrimination persist in the United
States and negatively affect the health and well-being of gay,
bisexual, other men who have sex with men (MSM), and other members of
the LGBT community. Homophobia, stigma, and discrimination are social
determinants of health that can affect physical and mental health,
whether MSM seek and are able to obtain health services, and the
quality of the services they receive. Such barriers to health need to
be addressed at different levels of society, such as health care
settings, work places, and schools in order to increase opportunities
for improving the health of MSM.

Homophobia and stigma persist in the United States even though
acceptance of same-sex relationships has been steadily increasing. For
example, a Gallup poll conducted in May 2010 found that more than half
(52%) of Americans believed that gay and lesbian relationships were
acceptable. Forty-three percent of Americans believed that gay and
lesbian relationships are not morally acceptable.

The Effects of Negative Attitudes About Homosexuality
Negative attitudes about homosexuality can lead to rejection by
friends and family, discriminatory acts and violence that harm
specific individuals, and laws and policies that adversely affect the
lives of many people; this can have damaging effects on the health of
MSM and other sexual minorities. Homophobia, stigma and discrimination
can:

  • Limit MSM’s ability to access high quality health care that is
    responsive to health issues of MSM

  • Affect income, employment status, and the ability to get and keep
    health insurance

  • Contribute to poor mental health and unhealthy behaviors, such as
    substance abuse, risky sexual behaviors, and suicide attempts

  • Affect MSM’s ability to establish and maintain long-term same-sex
    relationships that reduce HIV & STD risk

  • Make it difficult for some MSM to be open about same-sex behaviors
    with others, which can increase stress, limit social support, and
    negatively affect health

The effects of homophobia, stigma and discrimination can be especially
hard on adolescents and young adults. Young MSM and other sexual
minorities are at increased risk of being bullied in school. They are
also at risk of being rejected by their families and, as a result, are
at increased risk of homelessness. A study published in 2009 compared
gay, lesbian, and bisexual young adults who experienced strong
rejection from their families with their peers who had more supportive
families. The researchers found that those who experienced stronger
rejection were:

  • 8.4 times more likely to have tried to commit suicide

  • 5.9 times more likely to report high levels of depression

  • 3.4 times more likely to use illegal drugs

  • 3.4 times more likely to have risky sex

Reducing the Effects of Stigma and Discrimination
MSM and their family and friends can take steps to reduce the effects
of homophobia, stigma and discrimination and protect their physical
and mental health. One way to cope with the stress from stigma and
discrimination is social support. Some studies show that gay men who
have good social support - from family, friends, and the wider gay
community - have:

  • higher self-esteem,

  • a more positive group identity, and

  • more positive mental health.

Whether you are gay or straight, you can help reduce homophobia,
stigma and discrimination in your community and decrease the negative
health effects. Even small things can make a difference, such as
supporting a family member, friend, co-worker.[/quote]

1 Garofalo, R.,Wolf, R. C., Kessel, S., Palfrey, J.,
& Du Rant, R. H. (1998). The association
between health risk behaviors and sexual
orientation among a school-based sample
of adolescents. Pediatrics, 101, 895-902.

2 Bearman, P. S., Blum, R.W.,
Bauman,K. E.,Harris,K. S., Jones, J., et al.
(1997). Protecting adolescents fromharm:
Findings fromthe National Longitudinal
Study on AdolescentHealth. Journal of the
AmericanMedical Association, 278, 823-832.

3 Garofalo et al. (1998); Remafedi, G., Frendh,
S., Story,M., Resnick,M. D., & Blum, R.
(1998). The relationship between suicide
risk and sexual orientation: Results of a
population-based study. American Journal
of Public Health, 88, 57-60.

4 Garofalo et al. (1998); Resnick et al. (1997).

5 Blake, S.M., Ledsky, R., Lehman, T.,
Goodenow, C., Sawyer, R., & Hack, T.
(2001). Preventing sexual risk behaviors
among gay, lesbian, and bisexual
adolescents: The benefits of gay-sensitive
HIV instruction in schools. American
Journal of Public Health, 91, 940-946;
Goodenow, C., Szalacha, L., &
Westheimer, K. (2006). School support
groups, other school factors, and the
safety of sexual minority adolescents.
Psychology in the Schools, 43, 573-589;
Safren, S. A., & Heimberg, R. G. (1999).
Depression, hopelessness, suicidality, and
related factors in sexual minority and
heterosexual adolescents. Journal of
Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 67,
859-866.

6 American Psychiatric Association. (2000).
Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental
disorders, text revision (4th ed.).
Washington, DC: Author.

7 Schroeder,M., & Shidlo, A. (2001). Ethical
issues in sexual orientation conversion
therapies: An empirical study of
consumers. Journal of Gay & Lesbian
Psychotherapy, 5, 131-166; Shidlo, A., &
Schroeder,M. (2002). Changing sexual
orientation: A consumerâ??s report.
Professional Psychology: Research and
Practice, 33, 249-259.

8 American Academy of Pediatrics. (2001). Gay,
lesbian and bisexual teens: Facts for teens
and their parents [Pamphlet]. Elk Grove,
IL: Author.

9 Resolution adopted by American Counseling
Association Governing Council,March
1998.

10 Action by American Counseling Association
Governing Council, April 1999.

11 American Counseling Association. (2005).
Code of ethics (pp. 11-12). Alexandria,VA:
Author. See Ethical & Professional Standards
/CodeOfEthics/TP/Home/CT2.aspx

12 American Psychiatric Association. (1998).
â??Reparativeâ?? therapy [Position statement].
Washington, DC: Author.

13 DeLeon, P. H. (1998). Proceedings of the
American Psychological Association, Inc.,
for the legislative year 1997,minutes of
the annual meeting of the Council of
Representatives August 14 and 17, 1997,
Chicago, IL, and minutes of the June,
August, and December 1997 meetings of
the Board of Directors. American
Psychologist, 53, 882-939.

14 American School Counselor Association.
(2007). Position statement: Gay, lesbian,
transgendered, and questioning youth
[Adopted 1995, revised 2000, 2005, 2007].
See www.schoolcounselor.org/
content.asp?contentid=217

15 Haldeman, D.C. (1994). The practice and
ethics of sexual orientation conversion
therapy. Journal of Counseling and Clinical
Psychology, 62, 221-227.

16 Davison, G. C. (1991). Constructionism and
morality in therapy for homosexuality. In
J. C. Gonsiorek & J. D.Weinrich (Eds.),
Homosexuality: Research implications for
public policy. Newbury Park, CA: Sage;
Gonsiorek, J. C., &Weinrich, J. D. (Eds.).
(1991). Homosexuality: Research
implications for public policy. Newbury
Park, CA: Sage; Haldeman (1994).

17 National Association of SocialWorkers.
(1997). Policy statement: Lesbian, gay, and
bisexual issues [approved by NASW
Delegate Assembly, August 1996]. In
Social work speaks: NASW policy (4th ed.).
Washington, DC: Author.

18 National Association of SocialWorkers.
(2006). Social work speaks: NASW policy
statements 2006â??2009 (7th ed., p. 248).
Washington, DC: Author.

19 Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971).

20 See Peloza v. Capistrano Unified School Dist.,
37 F.3d 517, 522 (9th Cir. 1994) (noting
that â??[t]o permit [a public high school
teacher] to discuss his religious beliefs
with students during school time on
school grounds would violate the
Establishment Clause of the First
Amendmentâ??).

21 See Morrison v. Board of Education of Boyd
County, Ky., 419 F. Supp. 2d 937, 942-46
(E.D. Ky. 2006); Parker v. Hurley, No. 06-
10751-MLW- F. Supp. 2d -, 2007WL
543017 (D.Mass. Feb. 23, 2007).

22 See Edwards v. California Univ. of Pa., 156
F.3d 488, 491 (3d Cir. 1998) (public
schools generally have right to determine
own curriculum); see also Downs v. Los
Angeles Unified School Dist., 228 F.3d
1003, 1014-16 (9th Cir. 2000) (same).

23 See Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier,
484 U.S. 260 (1988).

24 Romer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620 (1996); Flores v.
Morgan Hill Unified School District, 324
F.3d 1130, 1037-38 (9th Cir. 2003);
Nabozny v. Podlesny, 92 F.3d 446 (7th Cir.
1996).

25 See Flores v.Morgan Hill, 324 F.3d at 1037-38
(holding that school may be liable).

26 Pogash, C. (2004, Jan. 7). California school
district settles harassment suit by gay
students. The New York Times, p. A19.

27 See GLSENâ??sWeb site at www.glsen.org/cgibin/
iowa/student/student/index.html

28 20 U.S.C. �§�§ 4071-4074 (2007). The act
mandates that whenever a public
secondary school â??grants an offering to or
opportunity for one or more
noncurriculum related student groups to
meet on school premises during
noninstructional time,â?? then the school
may not â??deny equal access or a fair
opportunity to, or discriminate against
any students who wish to conduct a
meeting within that limited open forum
on the basis of the religious, political,
philosophical, or other content of the
speech at such meetingsâ?? (�§ 4071[a]).

29 For example, Straights and Gays for Equality v.
Osseo Area Schools - District No. 279, 471
F.3d 908 (8th Cir. 2006); Boyd County
High School Gay

Wins Most Well-Researched Post of the Year Award!!! ^^^

Why would I believe the conclusions of such organizations without looking at the EVIDENCE. Some of us at T-Nation are not so easily brainwashed. If you don’t have the education to evaluate their studies, than maybe you shouldn’t be spouting off. I worked in hospitals for years, and I saw many doctors make stupid mistakes that anyone with a highschool education could pick out. BUT because families trusted their credentials, they were not held responsible. Sorry forlife, credentials don’t impress me.

I should believe the AMA? Do you believe everything they put out? Their theory of cholesterol and heart disease for example. You choose to believe out-of-hand the conclusions of such a conflicted organization because of your own BIAS for their conclusion. The American Academy of Pediatrics? Do you accept their policy on vaccination schedules? If you do you are a fool. You better look at the research before you decide. The National Association of Social Workers? Ba-hah-hah. A jack-booted organization of criminals if there ever was one, and I have firsthand knowledge. And the CDC? Wow, they did a good job helping us with the “Swine Flu epidemic”. I guess I would trust their opinion on homosexuality too.

I’ll humor you though and show you a problem of interpretation with one of your infallible studies:

The conclusion you post of the Schroeder and Shidlo study above is- [quote]the large majority of respondents
reported being left in a poor mental and emotional state after the therapy, and that rates of depression, anxiety, alcohol and drug abuse and suicidal feelings were roughly doubled in those who underwent
reparative therapy.[/quote] I would say their increased misery is not because of the reparative therapy, but precisely because they failed to leave the homo lifestyle via that therapy. Prior to the therapy, they experienced a level of misery high enough to make them attempt to change. At that time, they still had some hope of relief. When their attempt via therapy failed, they lost all hope, and turned to other unhealthy methods for relief. I have seen this type of result in patients with physical conditions when their best hope fails. Some would then argue that they shouldn’t have tried the therapy. Except this is entirely speculation, as it is quite possible their debilitating condition would get worse over time. That is, they would not be better off leaving well enough alone, as the above study concludes.

As far as why the reparative therapy fails- It could be a poorly designed program. The choice to follow a homo lifestyle has deep and complicated effects for the persons psyche, that I’m sure are very difficult to overcome. I think it’s hold on a person’s life is in some ways akin to meth addiction. I’m sure it’s very difficult to beat.

Just because it’s difficult though, does not warrant the Surgeon General’s conclusion- homosexuality is
“not a reversible lifestyle choice.” I have listed enough testimonies to show it can be reversed. You can choose to deny their successes if you want.

[quote]ironcross wrote:
Wins Most Well-Researched Post of the Year Award!!! ^^[1]

        Really! maybe u r new around these here parts so I won't rain on r parade or r cheering but Forlife and Zeb has exchanged stats with no clear outcome, so i know at first take it looks inpressive but give it 100 pages and things get murky.

        I don't agree 100% with either side but i do admire their dedication to their values when they get into it.

  1. /quote ↩︎

Mr Chen, you have about 29 sources you need to provide to support your ideas to even start breaking even with Forlife. Your response makes me sad. You didn’t put one ounce of effort into making a sound argument for yourself. You said you didn’t trust his 30+ renouned sources and then didn’t even post ONE of your own. Come on man.

[quote]aussie486 wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:
Wins Most Well-Researched Post of the Year Award!!! ^^[1]

        Really! maybe u r new around these here parts so I won't rain on r parade or r cheering but Forlife and Zeb has exchanged stats with no clear outcome, so i know at first take it looks inpressive but give it 100 pages and things get murky.

        I don't agree 100% with either side but i do admire their dedication to their values when they get into it.[/quote]

I did find some research done on one of the stats Zeb likes to post concerning conversion therapy and posted it in the gay showering thread. You should go check it out. It basically concluded that the conversion data by Masters and Johnson was fabricated.

Here we go:


  1. /quote ↩︎

Its just nonsense.

I highly, highly, highly doubt that I could be converted to have the man on man buttsecks, but that should be possible if gayness could be “cured”.

So sorry, but if you need to have 3 people working on you to “embrace your heterosexuality”, you are probably as queer as a three dollar bill.

[quote]ironcross wrote:
Mr Chen, you have about 29 sources you need to provide to support your ideas to even start breaking even with Forlife. Your response makes me sad. You didn’t put one ounce of effort into making a sound argument for yourself. You said you didn’t trust his 30+ renouned sources and then didn’t even post ONE of your own. Come on man.[/quote]

If you read my post, you will understand it’s not about who can provide the longest list of sources. If you’ve studied nutrition some, you know that asinine views are frequently held by large numbers of people.

[quote]orion wrote:
Its just nonsense.

I highly, highly, highly doubt that I could be converted to have the man on man buttsecks, but that should be possible if gayness could be “cured”.[/quote]
Of course, as this would be a case of trying to convert you from normal to a deviant behavior. Whereas we are talking about converting someone from deviant to normal behavior.

I don’t know, I worked in a psych hospital years ago, and we would often have 4 or 5 people involved at the same time in the care of one patient. You have to remember the homo’s addiction is very powerful, I’m sure they need lots of help to successfully overcome it.

What exactly is “the homo’s addiction”?

[quote]ephrem wrote:
What exactly is “the homo’s addiction”?[/quote]
He has CHOSEN a deviant sexual behavior. It takes a hold of his life, and he can’t leave it.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
What exactly is “the homo’s addiction”?[/quote]
He has CHOSEN a deviant sexual behavior. It takes a hold of his life, and he can’t leave it.[/quote]

So why has he chosen it?

I was never tempted.

Why is it that the cawk has a strong allure for some and not for others?

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
What exactly is “the homo’s addiction”?[/quote]
He has CHOSEN a deviant sexual behavior. It takes a hold of his life, and he can’t leave it.[/quote]

So why has he chosen it?

I was never tempted.

Why is it that the cawk has a strong allure for some and not for others?[/quote]

Were you ever tempted to try heroin? Not everyone tries, nor is tempted to try every sort of deviant or unhealthy behavior. Perhaps you were tempted to try heroin, but chose not to. I would say there would be a whole host of factors contributing to that decision. And of course not everyone that engages in such behavior a few times becomes addicted. I can use myself as an example of several scenarios- I was never tempted to try heroin, because I was never exposed to it. I was tempted to try cocaine, but chose not to. I tried smoking, but didn’t make a habit of it, and so never became addicted. Many factors were involved in each scenario. I’m sure every habitual homo’s situation is slightly different.