Friendly Biblical Discourse

He doesn’t want that. He is essentially using the “my truth” argument while claiming to be some STEM idealist. I think he’s full of shit and doesn’t know the difference between belief/opinion and facts.

His response to many points being made is, God can do anything. So the Noah story is therefore plausible. The problem is, God didn’t build the ark and the entire exercise was left to Noah. The question therefore is not whether or not God could take two of each creature on an ark, for which the dimensions are known, and survive for weeks during a flood but whether or not a man could do that. Logic would tell us no.

And yet we have had a discussion. If you wish to convince me, I have a constraint. It might be a little hard to swallow, “but he who is convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.”

When using the word “discussion” you should consider that it is stating and analyzing different points of view. That is what we are doing. I am just honest about my constraints. It seems evident that we are far from “dialogue” (which helps create new understanding.) When I share thoughts with my text group that share my “axiom” (as it is theirs too), we have dialogue is search of new understanding.

I am posting on this thread for the sole purpose of defending the word of God. I am not trying to convince anyone to change their mind. Because my “axiom” is so far from anyone accepting it, dialogue cannot exist with me. But clearly we can have a discussion.

I sincerely wish that you ignored all my posts, and pretend I do not exist.

This makes no sense.

I’m convinced you don’t know what you’re talking about and all of your remarks and comments are your way of trying to hide that fact.

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Of course you do because I’ve pointed out all of your bullshit.

Sounds more like a confirmation bias bubble to be honest.

Or something rooted in dogma and bad data as evidenced by the majority of scholars who pretty much unanimously agree that there is no single great Bible translation because we do not have the original source material. In fact the fragments analyzed have shown where scribes have added/changed things. So you are not applying logic or textual criticism.

All the best study bibles include footnotes indicating where manuscripts and source material disagree and what is written in the verse is the best consensus available as to the intended meaning.
Not recognizing that fact is illogical.

You have an axiom no one is allowed to criticize or challenge and yet how you arrived at that axiom is still unclear.

He chose a version of the Bible which he claims is the inerrant word of God. Based on what? It is an illogical position to take as there is no way of knowing if it is the inerrant word of God. Can it be tested? No. It’s a translation. If the original is in Hebrew, then that’s the language God spoke to whoever wrote it. That alone means that a translation is not the word of God. If anything, it’s an interpretation of the word of God.

This is pure arrogance. He admits he is not a Biblical scholar yet tells others that they need to accept his fundamental position if they want to dialogue with him. And where is the logic in this?

I probably shouldn’t have used my “axiom” as the rationale, but that is where I am now.

The analogy I should have used is my method when I was a confirmed atheist. I had heard a preacher say, “There is no proven error in the text or the context of the KJV Bible.”

I took the challenge and did a version of the scientific method using the preachers quote as the hypothesis. It seemed reasonable that with just the words written in the KJV Bible as the evidence that I could find a contradiction and prove the hypothesis was wrong. Remember that I was sure I could find a contradiction. I mean, there is no way a bunch of different men of different times could write the Bible without there being a bunch of contradictions. This would be a piece of cake.

Now the condition of the contradiction I found needed to be sufficient to stand up against a seasoned Christian knowledgeable of the Bible. You might not believe that I was an atheist, but I approached my quest with much determination to be aggressive as fair and honest. I wanted to get in that Christian’s face and show him that his belief was based on a lie.

This started in the mid 1990’s, and many supposed contradictions have come and gone. I changed from an atheist to an “arrogant” believer (not my words). I am no longer testing the hypothesis, it is now my “axiom.”

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The fact is that there are no originals. So drawing conclusions about the originals, without the originals, seems illogical to me. So all talk about the originals seems nothing more than speculation. I wanted a black and white standard. It is a contradiction or it is not a contradiction.

But drawing conclusions on a translation of a translation is logical?

I was hoping to have cleared that up a little. I took the KJV’s accuracy as a hypothesis. And after many challenges it seemed logical that I could work with that idea for Bible interpretation until proven unreliable. But the hypothesis is always up to be questioned.

You must admit that the KJV gives an opportunity to defend Jesus against being a false prophet concerning Matt 24:34.

Also, isn’t it a stretch to call Matthew chapter one a “genealogy” of Jesus. He didn’t carry one drop of the blood of any people mentioned. “Generation” in no way ties Jesus to be a blood relation to any of them. The Bible always protects the deity of Christ.

This thread has been silent for a little while. And @cyclonengineer I want to thank you for a chance to talk a little scripture. I will take this opportunity to inject a few observations:

The thread title is “Friendly Biblical Discussion.”

  • “Friendly” we missed that mark pitifully. (And I didn’t help much here either)
  • “Biblical” we seemed to stay on track.
  • “Discussion” was asked, but many seemed to demand dialog from me (Not that dialog can be demanded.)

I came into this thread believing that I would be defending the Bible against accused “contradictions.” That is what I was doing. The discussion quickly moved to me having to have logical proof that the Bible is the word of God.

It is absolutely impossible to prove that the Bible is the word of God. Period. I have known that for decades and always used that fact when confronting Christians the years I was an atheist. There is no way out of that argument with the Christian having a fighting chance. (Note: God desires us to want to have a relationship with Him without having to have our arm twisted. God wants us to come to Him as a child with wide open eyes of belief as a child believes in Santa Claus. As a study you should see all the similarities Santa Claus has with Jesus.)

While I knew there is no way to prove the Bible is the word of God, I was challenged to take the opposite. I was going to prove that the Bible was not the word of God. Then I would have further evidence against my Christian friends and anyone who would challenge me.

Yet, I get my approach attacked as illogical. That makes no sense to me. The only logical option is to prove that the Bible is not the word of God.

Once the Christian acknowledges that he cannot prove the Bible is the word of God, everything the Christian mentions about the Bible has no foundation. It is a complete conversational stopper. The atheist just holds the Christian to have no standing to comment on what the Bible says. Piece of cake. And the atheist doesn’t have to know anything about the Bible. Slam dunk!

Sorry if I cut too much with that quote. I don’t want to be disingenuous.

I actually don’t think that acknowledgement of “the Bible is the word of God” is a show stopper at all.

By example: Einstein wrote about relativity. If I read his papers, I know that this isn’t “the word of relativity” (bad phrasing) or a direct experience of relativity itself (well, technically…). There’s a layer of indirection and abstraction upon relativity; ambiguity imposed from putting it into language as opposed to direct experience, along with room for Einstein’s own misunderstanding and misinterpretation.

If I then read what someone else wrote about what Einstein said, there’s another layer of abstraction and indirection, even further from the “truth”. More room for intentional and accidental distortion, incompleteness, etc.

However, these layers of indirection don’t make relativity any less real.

Likewise, I don’t see why proving whether the Bible is the direct word of God has any bearing on the realness of God or of his word.

If you approach it as “I’m reading the word of a scribe who copied down what Abraham said” and accept that there are textual distortions from copying things for generations, never mind the original indirection, it doesn’t seem [to me] to really change anything.

In the absence of direct experience, it seems to hinge on other questions like, “is God real” and “did Abraham actually communicate with God” and “did the scribe accurately record that experience”.

But I don’t actually think that treating the Bible as the direct or indirect word of God has any real bearing. But I do see how that distinction would change how one discusses contradictions.

Just as with the story about the blind men and the elephant, there can be apparent contradictions in describing the same underlying non-contradictory thing. It doesn’t make the elephant any more or less real, nor the distinct experiences any more or less wrong.

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I like the analogy. And this is a reasonable explanation why so many find the “word of God” in any translation.

That just isn’t where I am. I’m in a place where I am looking for hidden meaning within the word of God, as in little nuggets of assurance that the word of God is real.

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Yeah. I apologized earlier in the thread for l not taking the best approach earlier.

I think your approach to how you are interpreting is illogical and therefore doesn’t adequately resolve the contradictions. But like you said, no one can prove or disprove.

I obviously failed in my attempt to describe my “logical” process.
One more time: It is a slight spin on “The Scientific Method.” I established an hypothesis and do an experiment with the objective of proving that the hypothesis is wrong. The problem with this approach is that there are never ending supply of experiments (proving a contradiction.) Note: I have been intensely challenged with supposed contradictions within the Bible.

Okay, you think I am completely illogical. Can you suggest a logical approach to prove the Bible is either the word of God, or that it is not the word of God?

@cyclonengineer what did surprise me is no one mentioned, “What about the dinosaurs? They are not mentioned in the Bible.” I get that question quite often.

Well, dinosaurs had been dead for a while, and none of the dudes who wrote the Bible ever knew they existed. That’s why they aren’t mentioned.

Ehh. This one isn’t really an issue.

Young earth creationism falls apart almost immediately.

It’s impossible to prove it is. What it has been shown to be is a series of texts written by numerous authors that coincide with the issues of the day (especially the OT). It has also been shown that that text has been changed over the centuries by various scribes thereby distorting the original text (which may or may not be the word of God) from its original meaning. So at the very least claiming that the KJV or any other English/German/Chinese translation is the inerrant word is inherently false.

For an elementary school kid who grew up trying to ingest everything I could about dinosaurs that lived hundreds of millions of years ago roaming the earth, and you have a Bible that tells a 6 day creation… You got a big problem with me. Glad to know this conflict is quite alright with you.

I agree that neither can be proven. But an ongoing test can be done.