Friendly Biblical Discourse

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Everything I write in this thread will be my opinion, except when I quote from the Bible.

God created man so He could fellowship with man. Remember, God created man in His image. God yearns for our fellowship. You will likely push back on this thought because we find ourselves fighting one problem after another. Read Genesis 8:22, I can explain this at some later time, but it concerns sowing and reaping, which has always been God’s government as long as the earth exists.

Why do I believe the Bible? In the simplest terms it is faith. And faith is difficult to put in words that you will understand my rationale. The Bible says it best in Hebrews 11:1, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

In secular terms I can explain it like hypothesis testing in inferential statistics (I have changed my explanation to hypothesis testing as it better describes my “testing” of the Bible.) I set the null hypothesis as the Bible has no contradictions and the alternate hypothesis as there is a contradiction in the Bible. So, when I am informed of a supposed contradiction in the Bible, I research it and explain it in terms that meets a reasonable level of my sensibility. If I find that the supposed contradiction proves to be no contradiction, I “fail to reject the null hypothesis.” If you are unfamiliar with statistical hypothesis testing, this was just a bunch of gobbly-gook. (This testing of mine is not actual statistical hypothesis testing, but it best describes my approach to the inerrancy of the Bible in STEM terms, as that is my language.)

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There are two types of contradictions people will point out with regard to the Bible. One type regards details about timelines and other things we could see as “historical” errors. Again, there are two versions of creation in Genesis. There is on the one hand, the idea that you only had Adam and Eve and their children in the world but on the other hand, Cain mentions, before being exiled, that he will be killed by the people he will encounter out in the world.

You will hear different opinions on what Cain is talking about. There is nothing in the text to explain who these people Cain refers to are. This contradiction isn’t a contradiction. It’s simply a detail that the authors did not care about, if they even noticed it. These people were not writing a movie script that they made sure had no plot holes. They were not writing a novel. They were not writing history. These details we focus on were unimportant with regard to what they were writing about.

There is an underlying message in the Torah or Pentateuch, and that is what happens when people get further from God in their daily lives. God is out of sight and out of mind. Cain murdered Abel as if he believed God wouldn’t know. He even lies to God, forgetting that he’s talking to God. The Torah is about the covenant between God and the Israelites.

The stories in the Torah aren’t about historical details or being historically accurate, they are about what happens when people neglect to honor their part of the covenant. The best term I can think of to describe what happens when people become indifferent to God, is moral degeneracy. It’s also what happens when people replace a seemingly harsh and demanding God with one who demands nothing. When the covenant between God and man replaces God with the self or with an ideology (something man creates in an attempt to be God) we end up with moral decay.

Ayn Rand was mentioned on another thread; she was an atheist and her ideology had no covenant between God and man. You can see how her beliefs, if taken to their logical conclusions would lead to a society of degenerates, beholden to no one but their own self interests and desires. The same can be said of communism. The worship and belief in the perfection of that ideology has led to mass murder and the dehumanization of those whom it was imposed upon.

The point is, the Bible shows what happens when people move away from values and morals. You can’t replace God with an ideology or simply remove God and not replace Him with anything. In doing so, you lose any sense of values or morality. The covenant between God and man is ultimately the covenant between men. This is something we see in the New Testament as Jesus teaches us that how treat our fellow humans, is how we treat God. We can fulfill the covenant between man and God by being good to one another.

We can ask ourselves, what happens to a society when people stop serving God (which means serving man)? Moral degeneracy and decay. We already see it in America. We think the divisiveness in this country is about ideology vs ideology but really it’s ideology (ies) vs values.

Oh, the other contradiction which is when in one book, chapter or verse God says it’s ok to do something then in another part of the Bible God says it’s not ok, usually have a contextual explanation and again, we must always remember that the Biblical storytellers had a message that wasn’t concerned about accuracy or what we see as contradictions.

A good place to start with regard to Biblical criticism is Spinoza.

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Good post.

Maybe I’m the fickle douchebag for jumping in to the thread.

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Don’t you believe a STEM would have pondered this supposed paradox?

These people were all related to Cain.

Genesis 5:3, “And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth”

Seth was born to replace Abel in the bloodline to Jesus’ right to the throne of God’s chosen people. It would be logical to believe that at the death of Abel, Seth was born shortly thereafter.

Genesis 6:1, “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,”

How many children did the Adam’s have in the preceding 130 years? How many children did the Adam’s children have after they were born, etc.? “Men began to multiply on the face of the earth.” Does this suggest many births per couple and many of the births could have been twins, triplets, etc? There will be a very rapid increase in the population.

These people Cain feared likely would consider revenging the murder of their kin.

Q.E.D.

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No. These questions and views have validity. Moby Dick wouldn’t have been written if these questions were not asked.

The simplest way to look at it is that we are putting expectations on the Bible that it was never intended to meet. It is not a scientific text as the ancient Hebrews had no understanding of science; that began with the Greeks. It is not an historical text as history, as a method or form, was invented by the Greeks. It’s a religious text and reading and analyzing it as anything else is inappropriate and misses the point. The stories in the Bible are told a certain way because the authors believed it was the best way to convey the message to the audience it was intended for.

These people had no concept of time as a linear process. They had no problems with two seemingly contradictory things both being true (think, no good deed goes unpunished. What the hell is that?). Negation did not exist as we know it, and how Aristotle would explain it. Literal thinking did not exist. Irony didn’t exist. We may see Oedipus as a tragic victim of irony, but the ancients would have seen his fate as simply being normal; expected even. In a way, these people enjoyed a freedom of thinking that we don’t have as they were not bound by grammar rules and a linguistic evolution that sought more clarity and precision. Making sense of the world (a philosophical idea) was not a priority. So a lot of our questions regarding religion and God that start with why, would not have been asked back then. They were more concerned with what God wants and not why he wants it. I mean, He’s God after all.

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I don’t believe it’s a valid topic for a scientific analysis. It’s irrelevant to the point of the story. If your opinion, and it is opinion, is true, does it make a difference? Do you need to believe it in order to believe?

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Yes. Doubt one thing, why believe any other thing. “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump,” Galatians 5:9

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I don’t think having doubts regarding the existence of God should hinge on the question of who these people Cain referred to were. It’s a detail that clearly did not matter to the ancients. I would think the doubt about God’s existence would come from the essential idea of God existing. A detail from Genesis shouldn’t be the linchpin of faith.

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This is just the curse of a detailed focused STEM. I don’t put this on anyone else.

I look it a little like adultery. Being faithful 99% of the time is still an adulterer.

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It’s not unless one presupposes the conclusion and then forces the data to fit (literally the opposite of scientific process).

But neither is any piece of literature. It has some good stories to tell and good lessons that can be applied but it is also highly problematic in areas.

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Obviously, I didn’t use a scientific process to check the feasibility of the story of Cain. What is the error in searching a possible explanation? Are you suggesting I dropped all the STEM of my mind in the search.

All I had to work with was the text of the Bible and the God given mind, and a few friends to bounce ideas back and forth.

The notion that we “forced” the data to reach a conclusion is an assumption you are making. You weren’t there in our discussions. We function more like attorneys, being able to take either side and present a robust case “for” and “against.” In this matter we cover the case from all sides.

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No, I am saying the scientific methodology has severe limitations.

It’s not really an assumption based on the research I have done and the general consensus of biblical scholars. In fact, if you took a large number of STEM and had then apply all the logical tests and data mining to all available “data” (primary text sources, translation history tracing, how beliefs spread etc…) most would not likely draw the same conclusion as you. One can’t claim biblical inerrancy and ignore the contradictions without making certain faulty logical assumptions or imposing certain ground rules. If you did this consciously, subconsciously, or it was what the Holy Spirit may have wanted you to see, I don’t know.
In fact you may be totally right and I may be totally wrong in our respective belief systems. And that’s fine that you have your convictions.

I am simply pointing out the limitations of scientific (as we understand it in the West) type thinking and that using a “logical” process without making a lot of assumptions about the data would likely not lead to the conclusions you have drawn.

I am not passing judgement. I think many more people should be as convicted in their own beliefs as you are. It’s a good quality, even if we disagree.

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The writers didn’t provide an explanation and the initial audience didn’t ask for an explanation. So trying to find a possible explanation assumes there is one when it’s more likely there isn’t one. Or at least one a modern reader might come up with. If you were to have asked the authors, “where did these other people come from?” The most likely answer would have been, “I don’t know but God does. If He didn’t tell us then it’s not important.” Keep in mind that the ancient Hebrews did not have philosophy. They most certainly didn’t have literary/textual analysis and criticism. These were later Greek inventions. This is why the New Testament comes closer to philosophy as by that point, Greek learning was something the Hebrews were exposed to. Jesus lived further from the ancients who wrote the Torah than he did the modern era.

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I agree 100%.
Romans 1:21, "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

They have revealed what God will allowed them.

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All is good

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This is the fundamental problem as both are modern approaches to reading the Bible. Finding contradictions or seeking to explain contradictions, in a way that proves inerrancy, are both the result of the influence of modern thinking which has its roots in Ancient Greece, not the Middle East. Look at some Greek myths like Leda and the Swan. The idea that Zeus could become a swan and rape a woman sounds preposterous to us. But it didn’t to the ancient Greeks. Does anyone think one of them would have asked for an explanation regarding how Zeus was able to become a swan? Or how Atlas can hold up the sky? Of course, the Greeks also planted the seeds to question these old beliefs. Philosophy was a challenge to religion with regard to values and science was a challenge with regard to reality. Reason could replace faith. Anyway, the Torah wasn’t written for our modern minds and expectations.

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[quote=“zecarlo, post:257, topic:285781”]Keep in mind that the ancient Hebrews did not have philosophy.
[/quote]

The word of God is given to all men, uneducated, educated, extremely logical.

I believe it is the living word of God. The Hebrews may have written the Old Testament, but it can be read by the most scientific minded people. God had all men in mind when He gave His word to the Jews.

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Did God also give us all reason?

So can Harry Potter. The point being, an ancient or even a Christian from the middle ages, if given Harry Potter to read, would think it was heretical in nature. Some religious people today even think that. But that’s because of how they would naturally approach the text.

A scientist can read Genesis but if he approaches it as a scientific text, he will miss the point. It wasn’t written for a scientist to read as a scientist as the authors had no concept of science.

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I have no problem for the explanation.

The Bible is written for all men.

You don’t need impeccable reason to have a relationship with God.
God offers answers for all those who seek it.
The wisdom in the Bible is not limited by the wisdom of those who wrote the texts.

If the scientist gave it any serious thought, he would know that the Bible was given to all people, even the ones that have very little scientific knowledge.

All scripture contains:

  • Literal meaning
  • Doctrinal message
  • Reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness
  • Spiritual meaning
  • Types of Christ.
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Ever heard of 2 Timothy 2:15, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”