Freedom of Speech in UN?

"Our collective failure has been to take our political leaders at their word. This week the BBC reported that the government’s own scientists advised ministers that the Johns Hopkins study on Iraq civilian mortality was accurate and reliable, following a freedom of information request by the reporter Owen Bennett-Jones. This paper was published in the Lancet last October. It estimated that 650,000 Iraqi civilians had died since the American and British led invasion in March 2003.

Immediately after publication, the prime minister’s official spokesman said that the Lancet’s study “was not one we believe to be anywhere near accurate”. The foreign secretary, Margaret Beckett, said that the Lancet figures were “extrapolated” and a “leap”. President Bush said: “I don’t consider it a credible report”.

Scientists at the UK’s Department for International Development thought differently. They concluded that the study’s methods were “tried and tested”. Indeed, the Johns Hopkins approach would likely lead to an “underestimation of mortality”.

The Ministry of Defence’s chief scientific adviser said the research was “robust”, close to “best practice”, and “balanced”. He recommended “caution in publicly criticising the study”.

When these recommendations went to the prime minister’s advisers, they were horrified. One person briefing Tony Blair wrote: “Are we really sure that the report is likely to be right? That is certainly what the brief implies?” A Foreign and Commonwealth Office official was forced to conclude that the government “should not be rubbishing the Lancet”.

The prime minister’s adviser finally gave in. He wrote: “The survey methodology used here cannot be rubbished, it is a tried and tested way of measuring mortality in conflict zones”.

How would the government respond? Would it welcome the Johns Hopkins study as an important contribution to understanding the military threat to Iraqi civilians? Would it ask for urgent independent verification? Would it invite the Iraqi government to upgrade civilian security?

Of course, our government did none of these things. Tony Blair was advised to say: “The overriding message is that there are no accurate or reliable figures of deaths in Iraq”.

His official spokesman went further and rejected the Johns Hopkins report entirely. It was a shameful and cowardly dissembling by a Labour - yes, by a Labour - prime minister.

Indeed, it was even contrary to the US’s own Iraq Study Group report, which concluded last year that “there is significant underreporting of the violence in Iraq”.

This Labour government, which includes Gordon Brown as much as it does Tony Blair, is party to a war crime of monstrous proportions. Yet our political consensus prevents any judicial or civil society response. Britain is paralysed by its own indifference.

At a time when we are celebrating our enlightened abolition of slavery 200 years ago, we are continuing to commit one of the worst international abuses of human rights of the past half-century. It is inexplicable how we allowed this to happen. It is inexplicable why we are not demanding this government’s mass resignation.

Two hundred years from now, the Iraq war will be mourned as the moment when Britain violated its delicate democratic constitution and joined the ranks of nations that use extreme pre-emptive killing as a tactic of foreign policy. Some anniversary that will be."

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
The question is: would this number be any different if Iran and Syria did their part in keeping border-crossing partisans in check…?[/quote]

Sure. But that goes against their best interest that the US gets bases all over Iraq.

That would make them accomplices to the horrors.

[quote]Would this number be any different if people like you were less busy polarizing the debate and drawing the situation in blacks and whites… and more busy looking for solutions?
[/quote]

People like me do have a solution and it is for the US to get the hell out of there and let Iraqi reconstruct their country. We could have believed Bush’s speech if he got the troops out after toppling Saddam, but no, what he did was get US companies reconstruction and oil explotation contracts. He also built the biggest US embassy in the world to date in Baghdad and recently dispatched aircraft carriers to the region. It shows that the US is only interested in making a buck and strategic control over the region to counter China’s influence.

Things aren’t black and white, but it’s clear who the agressor is and who the victims are.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
The question is: would this number be any different if Iran and Syria did their part in keeping border-crossing partisans in check…?

Sure. But that goes against their best interest that the US gets bases all over Iraq.

Would this number be any different if the world-community as a whole spent more time and energy helping out, instead of pointing fingers.? :wink:

That would make them accomplices to the horrors.

Would this number be any different if people like you were less busy polarizing the debate and drawing the situation in blacks and whites… and more busy looking for solutions?

People like me do have a solution and it is for the US to get the hell out of there and let Iraqi reconstruct their country. We could have believed Bush’s speech if he got the troops out after toppling Saddam, but no, what he did was get US companies reconstruction and oil explotation contracts. He also built the biggest US embassy in the world to date in Baghdad and recently dispatched aircraft carriers to the region. It shows that the US is only interested in making a buck and strategic control over the region to counter China’s influence.

Things aren’t black and white, but it’s clear who the agressor is and who the victims are.[/quote]

Yes… Sadamm was the agressor, for decades… and the iraqi people were the victims… :slight_smile: This is a fact that you seem to forget and pass by in silence… Instead you choose to focus on the “USA only went in to get oil, and i defend Iran’s and Syria’s right to indirect cause more deaths, beacause they aren’t usa”-line.

You are 100% logically flawed though… First you blame USA for causing deaths, in a politically motivated war, and then you use political motives as a reason for Iran and Syria to KEEP MAKING people die… It is quite clear that your agenda is to blame USA, not to solve the problem. Just as most of your red companions in sweden and norway do.

The fact that you seem to have problems constructing logically sound arguments, that you lack the facts to back your claims up and the fact that you think that witty remarks and melancholic texts are better than hard facts and evidence… well, that ruins it all for you… :slight_smile: you should try judging all parties involved by the same standards once, it would make you look less of an hypocrite and more of a serious debatant.

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
Yes… Sadamm was the agressor, for decades… and the iraqi people were the victims… :slight_smile: This is a fact that you seem to forget and pass by in silence… Instead you choose to focus on the “USA only went in to get oil, and i defend Iran’s and Syria’s right to indirect cause more deaths, beacause they aren’t usa”-line.

You are 100% logically flawed though… First you blame USA for causing deaths, in a politically motivated war, and then you use political motives as a reason for Iran and Syria to KEEP MAKING people die… It is quite clear that your agenda is to blame USA, not to solve the problem. Just as most of your red companions in sweden and norway do.

The fact that you seem to have problems constructing logically sound arguments, that you lack the facts to back your claims up and the fact that you think that witty remarks and melancholic texts are better than hard facts and evidence… well, that ruins it all for you… :slight_smile: you should try judging all parties involved by the same standards once, it would make you look less of an hypocrite and more of a serious debatant.
[/quote]

Saddam was a monster, and we should be grateful that he is no more. But he also had the support of the West for the better part of his rule. Let’s not forget that.

Where did you get the impression that I supported Iran and Syria’s decision to let ever more Iraqis die? I sure don’t think it’s a defensible position. Other than that, if you start an uncontrolled fire and I pour fuel on it, we’ll both be accountable.

And please stop comparing me with the “reds”.

[quote]lixy wrote:

People like me do have a solution and it is for the US to get the hell out of there and let Iraqi reconstruct their country. We could have believed Bush’s speech if he got the troops out after toppling Saddam, but no, what he did was get US companies reconstruction and oil explotation contracts. He also built the biggest US embassy in the world to date in Baghdad and recently dispatched aircraft carriers to the region. It shows that the US is only interested in making a buck and strategic control over the region to counter China’s influence.

Things aren’t black and white, but it’s clear who the agressor is and who the victims are.[/quote]

If the Americans left, the sunnis and shia would be at each other’s throats. Are you familiar with the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? Iraq would become the new ‘killing fields’.

80% of the terrorists in Iraq come from Syria. Assad should be warned to close his border or Damascus goes up in flames.

Lixy, I take back some of what I’ve said about you — you are simply naive. You expect good intentions to simply solve all problems and that all the walls obstructing what you want, to fall flat.

Until and unless human beings discover that the laws of morality are as inflexible as are physical laws, that rational selfishness is a necessity for human life, then humans will interact with one another through violence.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Until and unless human beings discover that the laws of morality are as inflexible as are physical laws, that rational selfishness is a necessity for human life, then humans will interact with one another through violence.
[/quote]

Heavy statement you put out there.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
Yes… Sadamm was the agressor, for decades… and the iraqi people were the victims… :slight_smile: This is a fact that you seem to forget and pass by in silence… Instead you choose to focus on the “USA only went in to get oil, and i defend Iran’s and Syria’s right to indirect cause more deaths, beacause they aren’t usa”-line.

You are 100% logically flawed though… First you blame USA for causing deaths, in a politically motivated war, and then you use political motives as a reason for Iran and Syria to KEEP MAKING people die… It is quite clear that your agenda is to blame USA, not to solve the problem. Just as most of your red companions in sweden and norway do.

The fact that you seem to have problems constructing logically sound arguments, that you lack the facts to back your claims up and the fact that you think that witty remarks and melancholic texts are better than hard facts and evidence… well, that ruins it all for you… :slight_smile: you should try judging all parties involved by the same standards once, it would make you look less of an hypocrite and more of a serious debatant.

Saddam was a monster, and we should be grateful that he is no more. But he also had the support of the West for the better part of his rule. Let’s not forget that.

Where did you get the impression that I supported Iran and Syria’s decision to let ever more Iraqis die? I sure don’t think it’s a defensible position. Other than that, if you start an uncontrolled fire and I pour fuel on it, we’ll both be accountable.

And please stop comparing me with the “reds”.[/quote]

So

  1. USA removed Saddam…

  2. Iran and Syria directly and indirectly add to the blodshed in Iraq.

  3. You question and condemn USA

  4. You don’t seem to be as eager to condemn and question Iran and Syria…

I don’t get it… :slight_smile:

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
So

  1. USA removed Saddam…

  2. Iran and Syria directly and indirectly add to the blodshed in Iraq.

  3. You question and condemn USA

  4. You don’t seem to be as eager to condemn and question Iran and Syria…

I don’t get it… :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I’d condemn Iran and Syria once I have proof that their actions did “directly add to the bloodshed in Iraq”. Until then, I’ll condemn whom I’ve seen bomb innocent Iraqi kids.

That said, I highly condemn Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for conforting Al-Qaeda and financing them.

US presence is requested by an ELECTED Iraqi government. So, condemn the ‘resistance’ groups.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Interesting that you’d post a poll showing the majority of Iraqi’s wanting the US to stay until security is achieved. So, why don’t you support the will of the Iraqi people? Why won’t you support their elected government’s fight to secure Iraq? Why do you talk up the “legitimate” resistance groups that are causing chaos and ruin?

From said poll:

“Since the end of the war in Iraq, thousands of civilians have died in violence on the streets. Support for the coalition forces based in Iraq is low - with 82% expressing a lack of confidence in them and 69% thinking they had made the security situation worse.”

What part of “get the fcsk out” don’t you understand?[/quote]

Actually, if you had the read the article you’d notice that the majority of Iraqi’s still wanted the US there until security has been established. Read your own damn article. The article mentions this.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
So

  1. USA removed Saddam…

  2. Iran and Syria directly and indirectly add to the blodshed in Iraq.

  3. You question and condemn USA

  4. You don’t seem to be as eager to condemn and question Iran and Syria…

I don’t get it… :slight_smile:

I’d condemn Iran and Syria once I have proof that their actions did “directly add to the bloodshed in Iraq”. Until then, I’ll condemn whom I’ve seen bomb innocent Iraqi kids.

That said, I highly condemn Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for conforting Al-Qaeda and financing them.[/quote]

That would be Iraqi Sunni and Shia, foriegn fighters and Iranian trainers.
Eliminate them and the bombing of innocent people stops.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
US presence is requested by an ELECTED Iraqi government. So, condemn the ‘resistance’ groups.[/quote]

Get me a reliable source that backs that claim up and I promise to not raise the issue again. The views of a UN ambassador don’t count. Sumaidaie is clearly a puppet and has been from day one.

The Iraqi government never voted on such issue. The very reason Tommy Thompson, former governor of Michigan, a republican, proposed that Bush should insists that such vote takes place.

[quote]hedo wrote:
That would be Iraqi Sunni and Shia[…]
Eliminate them and the bombing of innocent people stops.[/quote]

You mean you want to eliminate 97% of Iraqi population?

[quote]lixy wrote:
hedo wrote:
That would be Iraqi Sunni and Shia[…]
Eliminate them and the bombing of innocent people stops.

You mean you want to eliminate 97% of Iraqi population?[/quote]

Nope you said you want to condemn the ones killing innocent Iraqi children…remember. It’s not the Americans, it’s the Iraqi’s. Once you get over your bigotry and denial of reality the issues are a lot simpler.

Nice try. Try again.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
US presence is requested by an ELECTED Iraqi government. So, condemn the ‘resistance’ groups.

Get me a reliable source that backs that claim up and I promise to not raise the issue again. The views of a UN ambassador don’t count. Sumaidaie is clearly a puppet and has been from day one.

The Iraqi government never voted on such issue. The very reason Tommy Thompson, former governor of Michigan, a republican, proposed that Bush should insists that such vote takes place.[/quote]

Would the voted on UN resolution recognizing the Iraqi government’s request do? Do remember your promise.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sc8879.doc.htm

And now I’m going to ask you to use some common sense. Do you honestly believe the elected government of Iraq wants the US to withdraw immediately? Do you really think they’re so misguided as to believe they have a decent chance of providing security, and keeping the government itself reasonably safe, without intensive foreign involvement?

Come on, you know they’re not that naive. They recognize the need in having foreign troops for the time being.

Perhaps once their own security forces are reasonably up to task, they won’t renew requests for foreign troop involvement. That’s obviously not the case presently.