A skin cell isn’t an individual human life already moving through it’s life cycle.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
A skin cell isn’t an individual human life already moving through it’s life cycle.[/quote]
Given the right technology, a complete human could be cloned from it. The potential is there.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
A skin cell isn’t an individual human life already moving through it’s life cycle.
Given the right technology, a complete human could be cloned from it. The potential is there.
[/quote]
Doesn’t that sort of defeat the comparison?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Doesn’t that sort of defeat the comparison?[/quote]
Kinda reinforces it.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Doesn’t that sort of defeat the comparison?
Kinda reinforces it.
[/quote]
That a skin cell, if manipulated through cutting edge scientific knowledge and technology, is comparable to a human already moving through their very own life cycle?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
That a skin cell, if manipulated through cutting edge scientific knowledge and technology, is comparable to a human already moving through their very own life cycle?[/quote]
That a zygote, although it has the potential to become one, is not a human. Any human cell has the same potential; yet they’re not considered distinct human lives.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
That a skin cell, if manipulated through cutting edge scientific knowledge and technology, is comparable to a human already moving through their very own life cycle?
That a zygote, although it has the potential to become one, is not a human. Any human cell has the same potential; yet they’re not considered distinct human lives.
[/quote]
The zygote is already part of single human being’s life cycle. We’re beyond potential now.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
The zygote is already part of single human being’s life cycle. We’re beyond potential now. [/quote]
Nature will dispense with over 60% of them (at least in mammals), so your “life cycle” spiel actually describes the rarest occurrence. The “normal” (or “most likely”, if you prefer) cycle for a zygote is ejection from the body and death.
So much for that potential.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
The zygote is already part of single human being’s life cycle. We’re beyond potential now.
Nature will dispense with over 60% of them (at least in mammals), so your “life cycle” spiel actually describes the rarest occurrence. The “normal” (or “most likely”, if you prefer) cycle for a zygote is ejection from the body and death.
So much for that potential.
[/quote]
That’s not my spiel. The zygote is already part of a human’s life cycle.
[quote]pookie wrote:
So, is it really moral to force a child to be born in such a situation if its parents (or, more often, mother since the dad is long gone) judges that her situation is not right to raise a child?
[/quote]
This situation is completely avoidable. I am not discussing, and will not discuss the 1-3% exceptions for rape and incest or health or what-have-you. Leaving those aside the situation is completely fucking (ooh pun) avoidable—by a) not having sex b) using proper contraception before and during. It is NOT moral for anyone who decided they were ready to have some backseat fun to then want to press the do-over button because they were fucking stupid.
Man or woman, it’s gender neutral–men were part of it they gotta cowboy the fuck up. You fucked up, deal with it, accept responsibility, and give the baby away for adoption if you want to be free of the other 18+ years burden. Hospitals do that too you know, and there are a ton of couples or people that want to adopt babies. But what the heck should you care? It’s out of your hands and off your shoulders and you can go on with your life freely, and you didn’t have to terminate.
I’ve had several friends have to go through this, and while none of them were even remotely religious OR conservative, they all knew what had to be done and denied the acceptability of termination.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
That a skin cell, if manipulated through cutting edge scientific knowledge and technology, is comparable to a human already moving through their very own life cycle?
…Any human cell has the same potential; yet they’re not considered distinct human lives.
[/quote]
You don’t know your science. That’s completely false. The criteria for that potential is being 1) left to its own natural progression and 2) having the appropriate environment/nutrients to facilitate the natural progression. This is pretty much universally accepted among scientists irrespective of abortion stance.
Skin cells, or “any” human cell does not have this potential. They have already differentiated into specific tissue types and are completely incapable of any self-directed progression into a complete human. That they can be manipulated through cutting edge science is nothing except a testament to Man’s ingenuity and advancing knowledge.
toti-potent cells can, if separated from their surroundings and sequestered, develop into a complete human being–this is how identical twins are born; separation of one of the cells from the zygote.
pluri-potent cells can become different tissue type cells but lack the potential to develop into complete human beings.
cells from your example are completely incapable of either. The only alternative self-directed growth is cancer bud.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
This situation is completely avoidable. I am not discussing, and will not discuss the 1-3% exceptions for rape and incest or health or what-have-you. Leaving those aside the situation is completely fucking (ooh pun) avoidable—by a) not having sex b) using proper contraception before and during.[/quote]
Option b) would be just fucking great, as it’s the realistic one. Unfortunately, I’ve yet to see many of the pro-lifers go after the “abstinence only” crowds who oppose both abortion and birth control.
Everyone seems to be all for birth control, but no one seems to want to take any steps to remove social stigma; nor to make it abundantly and freely available. Countries who actually do that have among the lowest abortion rates in the world.
If they’d used birth control, they’d be no conception and the end result would be the same: A potential life didn’t happen.
There are way more abortions than there are parents looking to adopt. Go check the statistics.
Glad to hear they manned up and decided to act responsibly. Sad to hear you have “several” fucking stupid friends who can’t figure out birth control. Have you tried having a talk with them about options A) and B)?
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Skin cells, or “any” human cell does not have this potential. They have already differentiated into specific tissue types and are completely incapable of any self-directed progression into a complete human.[/quote]
Dolly the sheep was cloned from an adult somatic cell taken from her breast (hence her name).
There’s no reason to think that the same process wouldn’t work on humans.
As for “self-directed”, who said anything about that? We were discussing potentials. Any adult cell, given the right process and technology, can be used to produce a distinct being. That it will not do it by itself is a given.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
This situation is completely avoidable. I am not discussing, and will not discuss the 1-3% exceptions for rape and incest or health or what-have-you. Leaving those aside the situation is completely fucking (ooh pun) avoidable—by a) not having sex b) using proper contraception before and during.
Option b) would be just fucking great, as it’s the realistic one. Unfortunately, I’ve yet to see many of the pro-lifers go after the “abstinence only” crowds who oppose both abortion and birth control.
Everyone seems to be all for birth control, but no one seems to want to take any steps to remove social stigma; nor to make it abundantly and freely available. Countries who actually do that have among the lowest abortion rates in the world.[/quote]
Stigma? Really? I honestly have no freaking clue what you’re talking about. There’s no attached stigma for birth control that I see anywhere around me, I never have actually, and I live in the bloody bible belt.
Yeah it’s sad there was more than one, but it’s over. And they’re adults and know the score.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
Skin cells, or “any” human cell does not have this potential. They have already differentiated into specific tissue types and are completely incapable of any self-directed progression into a complete human.
Dolly the sheep was cloned from an adult somatic cell taken from her breast (hence her name).
There’s no reason to think that the same process wouldn’t work on humans.
As for “self-directed”, who said anything about that? We were discussing potentials. Any adult cell, given the right process and technology, can be used to produce a distinct being. That it will not do it by itself is a given.
[/quote]
I am very well of dolly the sheep. The same process could work, or something analogous to it. However, that is not the analogy you were attempting to make with your other post, and your analogy, at least in order to be applicable to the present topic, depends on the innate “self-directed” progression rather than technologically induced artificial potential.
I would think you already understood the point and are simply taking the piss, but I’m not sure. I would honestly like to explain it, but I don’t have the patience at this time, and I have to go train now anyway.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I am very well of dolly the sheep. The same process could work, or something analogous to it. However, that is not the analogy you were attempting to make with your other post, and your analogy, at least in order to be applicable to the present topic, depends on the innate “self-directed” progression rather than technologically induced artificial potential. [/quote]
Actually, it’s not an analogy I tried to make; this whole side-discussion started from a response I made to someone who was babbling about DNA being the same in the zygote as it is in the end individual; as if the simple fact of “having DNA” made a zygote the moral equivalent of an adult human being.
I’m sure the explanation would be both enlightening and entertaining, but it’s got nothing to do with the topic at hand.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
pookie wrote:
…So, is it really moral to force a child to be born in such a situation if its parents (or, more often, mother since the dad is long gone) judges that her situation is not right to raise a child?..
No, it’s not. Kill 'em all. They don’t deserve the chance that you and I had.[/quote]
I would argue they should have been responsible enough to think of that before hand, if you don’t make people deal with the consequences, they never learn to be responsible.
I know it may seem bad at first it is one of those things,
you cheat on an exam, if you don’t fail the class you don’t learn.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
A skin cell isn’t an individual human life already moving through it’s life cycle.
Given the right technology, a complete human could be cloned from it. The potential is there.
[/quote]
Bullshit. The only thing that can be cloned from a skin cell is more skin. If you you said were true there would not be even a single reason to consider embryonic stem cell research, you could get the same thing from a skin cell. You will solve major moral dilemmas if you could make that true.