I think it depends on what you bucket in “influence”. If you say that everything that makes it possible for you to make that decision, such as the state of your mind, external influences, past experiences…etc, then yes, it is the only variable in the sense that it includes every possible variable that impacts your decision.
It’s not that the horse is made to drink, it is where something, anything, would have to be different for that horse make a different decision. If there was true free will, the horse could drink or not drink. I’m saying for the horse to not drink you have to change something about the given circumstances.
I feel like I am struggling to articulate the point, or we may be in agree to disagree territory probably on what the definition of influence and free will are.
Maybe we can agree that people are able to be influenced/manipulated to a surprising degree, and there are a number of reasons why someone does the things they do. Considering those implications, I think the takeaway is to have compassion for people even when they do “bad choices”, and try to create circumstances that lead people to behave in more positive ways. That can be simple things like sincerely looking people in the eyes when you say thank you at the grocery store, to understanding how positive attitudes and smiles can be spread to the people surrounding you, and knowing how much you are influenced by your environment so you change it to make sure it is impacting you in positive ways.
Even if we disagree on the free will portion, I think it’s an interesting psychological discussion on how we can influence people to be more happy and have better experiences in their lives. Gratitude, meditation, experiences with nature, social connections, and importance come to mind. Unfortunately we have progressed very far as a society but happiness has not increased in the same way.
This is an interesting distinction. If this is your understanding and given enough time I would attempt to show you how much coercion is happening for every decision, most that we are unaware of. Given your statement above, if there is enough coercion, like I said before, there really is no choice at all.
Ya, it’s not so much of a disagreement is that I think we are talking past each other with our given understandings. Which is fine, I’m not really trying to convince you, I’m only trying to get you to understand the point of view. Your statement above is VERY close to what I’m trying to say, with my understanding that coercion is a lot stronger than what most people believe it is.
To me, coercion is the purposeful manipulation of a person through disingenuous or nefarious means. The fraudster manipulating the lil ol lady into thinking she’s in debt and can “save” by paying him over the phone, for example.
I can also see, in some cases, good intentioned influence essentially doing the same thing, particularly for younger more impressionable individuals.
However, I think there’s a pretty large grey area in between where influence and/or coercion is just one of many factors and ultimately the individual has to wade through their circumstances to arrive at a decision, which to me is the essence of free will.
I think I get the point of view. I just think it lends to much credit to external influence and I don’t think the science (at least the little bit I’ve read about it) is compelling enough to rule free will as non-existent.
I wasn’t trying to say it was only external influences, many of the influences are also internal. For example, people make different choices when their hormone levels or mood are different.
I don’t really know how you would prove or disprove free will. How can you prove that you could have made a different choice? How would I disprove that I am only able to make the choices I am?
You’re right, I shouldn’t have singled out external factors, but I think you can easily get lost going down the internal factors rabbit hole too. Your hormone levels influence your decisions, but your decisions influence your hormone levels too…Stay up late to play RDR2 versus sleeping a solid 8+ hours, exercising, food choices, etc…
I agree, but it didn’t sound like the guys in the video believe that (I only watched about half of it). It’s like trying to prove that God does or doesn’t exist.
they are making their arguments for why they believe what they do, I don’t think either is saying they have proof, or at least I have not heard that from them.
Exactly, you can make arguments, but that is different than proof.